Wort Chilling Question

[ace0005]

I had a problem last week that I've never encountered before. I ran my wort through my counter flow wort chiller, and into my SS conical only to find that I was still at 90 degrees . As a result, I transferred back into my brew kettle, and "re-chilled" my wort, which yielded positive results.

The questions that finally occurred to me, Does anyone recirculate their wort from the BK, through the chiller, and back into the BK until temperature is achieved? Or is it just a matter of boiling at a lower temperature?

 

[CodeSection]

....Does anyone recirculate their wort from the BK, through the chiller, and back into the BK until temperature is achieved? ....

That's what I do all the time. When the ground water warms up (like right now in southern AZ), I use ground water and I recirculate the wort back into the BK. That process gets the wort down to 90-92F. Then I use ice bottles in a large cooler with water and recirculate to get the wort to yeast pitching temp.

On my next batch in order to save some time, and since I have a 20 gallon bright tank, I plan on filling my bright tank with water and chilling it down to 40F and try using that as a one pass process where the water waste goes outside and the wort flows directly into the fermenter.

 

[ace0005]

That's what I do all the time. When the ground water warms up (like right now in southern AZ), I use ground water and I recirculate the wort back into the BK. That process gets the wort down to 90-92F. Then I use ice bottles in a large cooler with water and recirculate to get the wort to yeast pitching temp.

On my next batch in order to save some time, and since I have a 20 gallon bright tank, I plan on filling my bright tank with water and chilling it down to 40F and try using that as a one pass process where the water waste goes outside and the wort flows directly into the fermenter.

Nice. I live in New Jersey, and the ground water is usually cold enough for one pass, even in the summer months. I recently upgraded my system and I'm now brewing 10 gallon batches. So not only is there a learning curve, but this recirculate the wort through the chiller is a whole new concept for me. It completely makes sense though.

 

[CodeSection]

Nice. I live in New Jersey, and the ground water is usually cold enough for one pass, even in the summer months. I recently upgraded my system and I'm now brewing 10 gallon batches. So not only is there a learning curve, but this recirculate the wort through the chiller is a whole new concept for me. It completely makes sense though.

I only brew 10 gallon batches. I have always recirculated wort back into the BK regardless whether I needed to use the frozen water bottles/cooler process for the last 20 degrees or so. I transfer the wort into my CF10 fermenter only after reaching the yeast's pitching temp.

 

[doug293cz]

I had a problem last week that I've never encountered before. I ran my wort through my counter flow wort chiller, and into my SS conical only to find that I was still at 90 degrees . As a result, I transferred back into my brew kettle, and "re-chilled" my wort, which yielded positive results.

The questions that finally occurred to me, Does anyone recirculate their wort from the BK, through the chiller, and back into the BK until temperature is achieved? Or is it just a matter of boiling at a lower temperature?

You can't boil at a lower temperature (unless you boil in a partial vacuum, or move to Denver.) Boil vigor (controlled by how much heat you are putting into the BK) has no effect on cooling time. Any excess heat applied during the boil goes into creating steam. When you cut the heat, the wort is at ~212°F, no matter how hard you were boiling it.

Brew on

 

[Vale71]

I had a problem last week that I've never encountered before. I ran my wort through my counter flow wort chiller, and into my SS conical only to find that I was still at 90 degrees . As a result, I transferred back into my brew kettle, and "re-chilled" my wort, which yielded positive results.

The questions that finally occurred to me, Does anyone recirculate their wort from the BK, through the chiller, and back into the BK until temperature is achieved? Or is it just a matter of boiling at a lower temperature?

Is it possible that you connected the cooling water supply incorrectly, i.e. in a parallel flow configuration instead of a counterflow configuration? This really cuts down dramatically on cooling efficiency when using this type of chiller. Ask me how I know...
Recirculating with a counterflow chiller really makes no sense as this type of chiller has the highest efficiency when the temperature drop is highest. If you recirculate the wort in the kettle will slowly drop in temperature and the heat transfer between wort and cooling fluid will become progressively less and less efficient, much like what happens with an immersion chiller. As a matter of fact using a counterflow chiller in this manner will yield similar results to using an immersion chiller with agitation in the kettle to avoid stratification, which is a bit pointless IMHO. You also wont' be able to cool below a few degrees above the current cooling fluid's temperature no matter how long you recirculate, the only difference is that it will take longer and use up a lot more water.
What you really need to do (besides checking that you didn't mix up your connections) is to adjust wort flow until you get either to pitching temperature or as cold as your cooling water's temp will allow you to chill. If that's still too warm then you'll need a second stage of cooling which might be as simple as placing the fermenter in the fermentation chamber and waiting until it reaches pitching temp.

 

[ace0005]

Is it possible that you connected the cooling water supply incorrectly, i.e. in a parallel flow configuration instead of a counterflow configuration? This really cuts down dramatically on cooling efficiency when using this type of chiller. Ask me how I know...
Recirculating with a counterflow chiller really makes no sense as this type of chiller has the highest efficiency when the temperature drop is highest. If you recirculate the wort in the kettle will slowly drop in temperature and the heat transfer between wort and cooling fluid will become progressively less and less efficient, much like what happens with an immersion chiller. As a matter of fact using a counterflow chiller in this manner will yield similar results to using an immersion chiller with agitation in the kettle to avoid stratification, which is a bit pointless IMHO. You also wont' be able to cool below a few degrees above the current cooling fluid's temperature no matter how long you recirculate, the only difference is that it will take longer and use up a lot more water.
What you really need to do (besides checking that you didn't mix up your connections) is to adjust wort flow until you get either to pitching temperature or as cold as your cooling water's temp will allow you to chill. If that's still too warm then you'll need a second stage of cooling which might be as simple as placing the fermenter in the fermentation chamber and waiting until it reaches pitching temp.

I'm not sure I'm understanding..... the way I connect to my chillzilla is by connecting the wort from the BK to the top outside inlet, it exits out of the bottom outside outlet, while the water is connected to the top inside inlet, and exiting through the bottom inside outlet..... is this correct?

 

[doug293cz]

I'm not sure I'm understanding..... the way I connect to my chillzilla is by connecting the wort from the BK to the top outside inlet, it exits out of the bottom outside outlet, while the water is connected to the top inside inlet, and exiting through the bottom inside outlet..... is this correct?

No. Wort goes in the top and out the bottom. Water goes in the bottom and out the top. (Or you can reverse both of them.) The flow must be in opposite directions - that's what counter flow means. Also, wort normally flows thru the inside tube, and water flows thru the jacket tube.

Brew on

 

[Beholder]

I only brew 10 gallon batches. I have always recirculated wort back into the BK regardless whether I needed to use the frozen water bottles/cooler process for the last 20 degrees or so. I transfer the wort into my CF10 fermenter only after reaching the yeast's pitching temp.

Same here with 80 F ground water and half barrel batches, recirc is a must. Typically bring it to below 100, stop recirc for 20 min to allow whirlpool to settle, the push into chilled conical to drop to pitch temp.

 

[Pkrd]

I recirculate through the counterflow until its down to around 120F. My 100% untested and wildly speculative reasoning is that chilling the entire wort gives a better cold break and stops isomerization throughout the whole wort rather than whats dribbling through the chiller.

Also I sometimes tip whats left in the grainfather directly into the fermenter so it's nice to have that chilled halfway.

 

[Vale71]

I recirculate through the counterflow until its down to around 120F. My 100% untested and wildly speculative reasoning is that chilling the entire wort gives a better cold break and stops isomerization throughout the whole wort rather than whats dribbling through the chiller.

In reality the opposite is true. Regarding cold break formation, that is. That with continuing isomerization is true but I personally don't see it as a problem since if your process is consistent you just need to adjust the amount of hops until you hit your target IBUs.
Cold break formation is improved the faster the wort is chilled and the highest the temperature drop is. If you use a counterflow chiller properly, i.e. in a single pass, the wort flowing through it will be chilled in as little as few seconds depending on chiller geometry and rate of flow of wort. That's opposed to the entire volume of wort being chilled slowly and possibly taking half an hour or more to reach final temperature, which is the worst scenario vis-a-vis quality of cold break formation.

 

[boilerbrad]

I always start recirc through the chiller with 15 mins left in the boil to attempt to sanitize the chiller. Once the boil is over, I cut the power and do any whirlpool additions. When that's done doing its thing I turn on the chiller. Finally, when the entire volume hits pitch temp it gets pumped into the fermenter. The pump is running with the out valve open about 40% the whole time.

Regarding cold break, wouldn't this just sink if it made its way into the fermenter? The worst thing it could do is take up space in the primary?

 

[hottpeper13]

I can't separate trub from wort in my fermenters so I chill by recirc. I like to brew in the evening , that way I can drink and brew without feeling guilty. When the wort is at 70*(the temp that cold break forms at) I quit chilling and close the pump valve,shut every thing down and crash. In the morning I pump clear wort into fermenter and if its a lager I might turn on the water to chill further.

 

[ace0005]

I really appreciate the feedback from all of you. This is why I love this forum.

 

[ace0005]

No. Wort goes in the top and out the bottom. Water goes in the bottom and out the top. (Or you can reverse both of them.) The flow must be in opposite directions - that's what counter flow means. Also, wort normally flows thru the inside tube, and water flows thru the jacket tube.

Brew on

...... Whoops

 

[VikeMan]

I had a problem last week that I've never encountered before. I ran my wort through my counter flow wort chiller, and into my SS conical only to find that I was still at 90 degrees . As a result, I transferred back into my brew kettle, and "re-chilled" my wort, which yielded positive results.

You could also slow down your wort flow and get the same effect with less wort handling.

Edit: I see there were some more posts in this thread that I somehow missed before I responded. So while I stand by my response (in general), it obviously is not the best fix, given new discovery of facts!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

During the boil I clean my MLT. Near the end of the boil I fill the HLT with cold tap water and ice from the freezer. The water in the HLT gets into the low 40's. When the boil is over I put the lid on the BK, sanitize the HLT, connect hoses to the pumps, counterflow chiller, to the MLT and from the HLT. In other words

BK -> wort pump in -> wort pump out -> counterflow chiller wort in -> counterflow chiller wort out -> MLT in.

HLT -> water pump in -> water pump out -> counterflow chiller water in -> counterflow chiller water out -> large barrel (to use water for clean up and other things. I also use any other left over water for cleaning, watering the garden, etc).

I let the boiling temp wort sit in the lines, pump and chiller for a few minutes to sanitize things.

I must monitor the amount of water in the HLT and the temp. If temp is getting too high I add additional ice to the HLT.

I've also found the counterflow chiller works best if the cold water moves faster than the wort. Control the temp of the wort going to the MLT by varying the speed of the wort and/or cold water.

I do this in 1 pass leaving trub, etc in the BK.

From the MLT I transfer the wort into the fermenter.

While the above works (and works well for me) this method makes more things for me to clean on brewing day (thereby making for a longer day). As an example I have to clean the MLT twice. Once when done mashing and then again (although not nearly so "dirty" as when finished mashing) after chilling.

 

[seatazzz]

I use a plate chiller. My usual process is get everything set up about 15 minutes to end of boil (including kicking cats out of garage so I can open the door). At flameout, I'll start up the pump (but NOT the chilling hose) and let it run through for about 10 minutes to sanitize the chiller and hoses, and also, if I'm doing a flameout hop addition, let the wort run over the bag to get the most out of it. At the end of 15 minutes the wort is usually down to 160, and then I turn on the water. About 10 minutes later I'm at pitching temperature. I collect the water from the "out" hose for cleaning later so I don't waste so much.

 

[Yesfan]

After the last two times using my plate chiller and clogging it up, the last two batches I brewed I used my immersion chiller.

I do something similar to @Tobor_8thMan method, but with an immersion chiller. I chill the wort with the IM and ground water to about 100F. Then I fill my MLT with ice water (15lb of ice used this last time), and recirculate that through the IM chiller while I'm stirring the wort in the opposite direction. Going from 100F to pitching temps seemed to be as quick as from boiling to 100F with ground water. I don't have the times to verify, but I felt like it was quick enough for me to try it again and tweak it for better results.

The best thing was no clogged plate chiller and I just had to hose out the MLT and IM chiller when done.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Please realize I don't go straight from the BK into the conical fermenter as the conical fermenter doesn't have volume markings. Also, can't rely on the BK volume markings as the wort will shrink when cooled.

When I began using the counterflow wort chiller I also recirculated the cold water once the wort reached a certain temp. Maybe I've gotten better as I'm able to cool 12 gallons of boiling wort to yeast pitching temps in 10 to 20 minutes (probably some of this time is adding additional water and ice to the HLT).

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I had a problem last week that I've never encountered before. I ran my wort through my counter flow wort chiller, and into my SS conical only to find that I was still at 90 degrees . As a result, I transferred back into my brew kettle, and "re-chilled" my wort, which yielded positive results.

The questions that finally occurred to me, Does anyone recirculate their wort from the BK, through the chiller, and back into the BK until temperature is achieved? Or is it just a matter of boiling at a lower temperature?

My main concern with recirculating is introducing oxygen at the wrong time (when the wort temp is too hot).

 

[seatazzz]

Hot side aeration is a myth. Brulosophy and many others have done experiments in regards to it. This is a favorite article: Is Hot Side Aeration ********?. Mainly because they call it BS. There's a link to the Brulosophy exbeeriment in there as well.

I've gotten off flavors in my beers, but never from whirlpooling or recirculating hot; it's always been stupid errors on my part (pitching too hot, using really old yeast, no fermentation temperature control). I recirculate all of my beers, and the last 10 have been stellar with no off-flavors at all (with the exception of a lager I did with too-old yeast).

 

[Bobby_M]

Hot side aeration is a myth. This is a favorite article: Is Hot Side Aeration ********?.

LOL. "here's a video showing how I whirlpool", video doesn't show anything whirlpooling at all but the wort sure is fire-hosing from the lid down into the kettle. Brulosophy performed one experiment and served it to 12 people with unknown palettes. Because it didn't produce significant results, you're using it to confirm a method you like to use.

Those that adhere to low oxygen brewing techniques would say that neither batch was kept low oxygen on the hot side and certainly neither were kept away from oxygen on the cold side. Just the oxygen exposure on the cold side may have nullified any slight difference in the beers that happened when the wort was hot.

On the hot side, the control should have had either preboiled strike water or SMB and the mash should have been fully capped. The chiller should have been stainless steel, not copper. On the cold side the receiving keg should have been fully liquid purged and the beer pushed out of the fermenters with CO2.

That is to say what that Exbeeriment proved is that some tasters couldn't tell the difference between two beers that were both treated poorly from an oxygen perspective throughout the brewing and packaging steps but one was treated slightly less poor.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

IMO, take Brulosophy with much, much skepticism.

 

[day_trippr]

Or not at all...

 

[bracconiere]

Or is it just a matter of boiling at a lower temperature?

damn, doug beat me to it.....but this thread does give me a question, best left for beginners...(and also a thought of pressure cooking hops at 250f, lol)....