Wort Aeration

[JJFlash]

Are the numbers that were posted earlier in this thread about the same as what you measure, or maybe different? /QUOTE]

I believe the common wisdom of aeration with aquarium pump and stone to max of 8ppm is a good approximation. When using oxygen there are way too many variables for me to give any accurate approximations/suggestions. Oxygen flow rate is huge. Stone size, placement, wort gravity, temperature, etc. all affect final oxygen concentrations. Many homebrewers use the standard red bottle oxygen from the big box stores. Just like the propane torch you can slightly crank open the valve for small flame, or wide open for a MASSIVE torch. My regulators run from 0.25 L/min to 10L/min, a forty fold flow increase. I am frequently adjusting my regulator to hit the numbers.

Prior to a DO meter I use to run my red bottle oxygen until the foam got up to the neck of the fermentor. You cannot really over oxygenate the wort to yeast killing levels with this set up. Again, most of this dissolved oxygen comes right out of solution.

 

[bobbrews]

I'm sorry, but you can shake to your hearts content, but you're not going to adequately aerate a 1.090 wort by shaking alone. Higher gravity wort is more difficult to infuse O2 in, and your yeasts O2 requirement is higher in a high gravity wort. You'll still make great beer, but that great beer could be excellent beer if it had proper DO levels.

I completely agree. Which is why I made the distinction of when the shake method works very well, and when additional methods may be required. Very high OG worts require a little extra umpff.

 

[RIC0]

Maybe I missed it in this thread but how often should you areate a 5 gallon batch? My current and recent method is STSOOT.(shake the **** out of it)

One time a day, every two days, every three days, twice a day?? Help a dummy out please.

My knowledge is getting better by the day researching this site, it's superb members and my OCD has kicked in to the extreme. I work from home and have plenty of time each day to tend to my liquid gold buckets and carboys in my fermenting room.

I have a drill and no problem getting a paint mixer if that does an even better job of giten r dun??

 

[Antler]

This, as with so many other homebrew questions, always comes down to people wanting to defend the way they do things. So few people approach this with an open mind.

"I do _________________ and my beer always turns out GREAT!!!!"

Unless you are saying that from behind a big box of NHC medals, your beer can get better.

Kudos to those who are looking for a scientific explanation of what the optimal way to do things is.

Amen! I ferment everything in a corner of my basement, up until recently just dumping a single vial of yeast into the fermenter and aerating by shaking.

Yeah I've made some good beers, but we all know fermentation temps and yeast starters will produce better beers. If shaking was the best way to aerate, youd see breweries using something to shake the wort.

 

[grathan]

Are the numbers that were posted earlier in this thread about the same as what you measure, or maybe different? /QUOTE]

I believe the common wisdom of aeration with aquarium pump and stone to max of 8ppm is a good approximation. When using oxygen there are way too many variables for me to give any accurate approximations/suggestions. Oxygen flow rate is huge. Stone size, placement, wort gravity, temperature, etc. all affect final oxygen concentrations. Many homebrewers use the standard red bottle oxygen from the big box stores. Just like the propane torch you can slightly crank open the valve for small flame, or wide open for a MASSIVE torch. My regulators run from 0.25 L/min to 10L/min, a forty fold flow increase. I am frequently adjusting my regulator to hit the numbers.

Prior to a DO meter I use to run my red bottle oxygen until the foam got up to the neck of the fermentor. You cannot really over oxygenate the wort to yeast killing levels with this set up. Again, most of this dissolved oxygen comes right out of solution.

JJ it is great someone with a DO meter has finally chimed in. be there may be a lot of variables, could you provide some of your variables and the results attained? For example:

1.050 OG
5 micron SS stone, 5 psi O2 for 30 seconds at *65F = 10ppm


thanks.

 

[bobbrews]

If shaking was the best way to aerate, youd see breweries using something to shake the wort.

Have you ever tried shaking 600 gallons of beer? Don't be silly. Large scale brewery operations vs. the average 5 gallon homebrewer system are quite different.

 

[Brulosopher]

I know a guy who did a side by side: shaken vs. oxy stone. The anecdotal results? No one could tell the difference between the two beers (same recipe). I agree with whoever said this issue will just incite people to defend whatever it is they do. The great thing about homebrewing is that we're not commercial brewers

 

[scottland]

I know a guy who did a side by side: shaken vs. oxy stone. The anecdotal results? No one could tell the difference between the two beers (same recipe). I agree with whoever said this issue will just incite people to defend whatever it is they do. The great thing about homebrewing is that we're not commercial brewers

Again, look back to my post about 8 replies ago. What gravity was the beer, and what generation was the yeast?

For beers under like 1.070, on the first generation of yeast, I don't notice any difference. Subsequent generations or higher gravity beers, I do.

If you never brew beers over 1.070, and don't repitch yeast, don't bother spending money on aeration.

 

[Hamsterbite]

One supposed advantage to using pure O2 over shake/stir is better head formation/retention in the finished beer.

It is believed that the proteins in beer that are necessary for head formation are a one time thing. So when you create foam in your wort by dump/pour, paint stirrers, vigorous shaking, etc., you may be diminishing the head formation potential of the finished beer. You are also volatizing some of the aroma.

 

[Antler]

Have you ever tried shaking 600 gallons of beer? Don't be silly. Large scale brewery operations vs. the average 5 gallon homebrewer system are quite different.

Have you ever bottled 600 gallons of beer?

Don't be silly.

 

[RIC0]

And if you shake your bucket after a week or two of fermenting what would happen?

Would this settled yeast simply eat a little more sugar?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

And if you shake your bucket after a week or two of fermenting what would happen?

You would end up with oxidized alcohols such as acetaldehyde. It would likely have a "butter" or "green apples" taste.

 

[bufitfn]

Here is my inline oxygernator, I use it during entire transfer from chiller to fermenter. It has made an unbelievable difference in lag time, most of my beers take of within hours, dry or liquid yeast. Before using this it would be 16 to 24 hours, now 6 to 10. I;m a firm believer in using Oxy to make yeast happy.

 

[bobbrews]

Have you ever bottled 600 gallons of beer?

Don't be silly.

Big breweries do smart a$$. That was the whole point.

 

[Dan]

Originally Posted by RIC0
And if you shake your bucket after a week or two of fermenting what would happen?

You would end up with oxidized fatty acids such as DMS. It would likely have a "wet cardboard" taste.

I've never quite followed that reasoning. If you shake your wort in a sealed environment with only CO2 covering it, how does O2 get introduced? Through the airlock?

 

[Hamsterbite]

If you tried that on a bucket fermentor you'd probably end up deforming the sides of the bucket, which would create a suction through the airlock and you'd pull your sanitizer into the beer.
You only want to oxygenate when you pitch anyway. Oxygen after fermentation = stale beer.

 

[ArkansasRazorbacks]

Maybe I missed it in this thread but how often should you areate a 5 gallon batch? My current and recent method is STSOOT.(shake the **** out of it)

One time a day, every two days, every three days, twice a day?? Help a dummy out please.

My knowledge is getting better by the day researching this site, it's superb members and my OCD has kicked in to the extreme. I work from home and have plenty of time each day to tend to my liquid gold buckets and carboys in my fermenting room.

I have a drill and no problem getting a paint mixer if that does an even better job of giten r dun??

Shake it only when wort is chilled right before pitching the yeast, then never shaking it ever again.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

I've never quite followed that reasoning. If you shake your wort in a sealed environment with only CO2 covering it, how does O2 get introduced? Through the airlock?

You're right it it was just CO2 nothing would oxidize, but I thought he was trying to get oxygen in to aid in fermentation so I assumed that he must be opening the bucket.

 

[Dan]

If you tried that on a bucket fermentor you'd probably end up deforming the sides of the bucket, which would create a suction through the airlock and you'd pull your sanitizer into the beer.
You only want to oxygenate when you pitch anyway. Oxygen after fermentation = stale beer.

You're right it it was just CO2 nothing would oxidize, but I thought he was trying to get oxygen in to aid in fermentation so I assumed that he must be opening the bucket.

I agree with you both. It would be detrimental to aerate a normal graivty beer after a the first day or so. I just think sometimes people freak out a little to much about oxidation in the fermenter from a little movement.

Sorry to sidetrack a great thread.

 

[Brulosopher]

One supposed advantage to using pure O2 over shake/stir is better head formation/retention in the finished beer.

It is believed that the proteins in beer that are necessary for head formation are a one time thing. So when you create foam in your wort by dump/pour, paint stirrers, vigorous shaking, etc., you may be diminishing the head formation potential of the finished beer. You are also volatizing some of the aroma.

I bet the hell outta my wort with a paint stirrer





Just sayin'

 

[Hamsterbite]

I bet the hell outta my wort with a paint stirrer

Just sayin'

Agreed, this seems to be somewhat theoretical. The loss of aroma is probably the bigger risk.

BTW, I'm digging all the different glassware! And you've made me thirsty.

 

[Brulosopher]

Agreed, this seems to be somewhat theoretical. The loss of aroma is probably the bigger risk.

BTW, I'm digging all the different glassware! And you've made me thirsty.

Haha, I didn't even realize all of those photos have different glass. I prefer the small 5 oz glasses myself.

 

[RIC0]

You're right it it was just CO2 nothing would oxidize, but I thought he was trying to get oxygen in to aid in fermentation so I assumed that he must be opening the bucket.

This is correct, shakin it with lid on with empty airlock then cleaning airlock, refilling with water.

 

[traviswalken]

I am fairly new to brewing and have started listening to basic brewing radio. BBR interviewed a home brewer in 2005 who compared oxygenation of water via aquarium pump/stone and shaking. He had the same question as the OP and decided to buy an o2 meter on ebay to find the answer.

You can read his results here: http://www.brewangels.com/Beerformation/AerationMethods.pdf

He found that you could reach 90% saturation by shaking the bucket/carboy in less than 5 minutes. Aquarium pumps at various pressures took longer.

 

[MaxOut]

I am fairly new to brewing and have started listening to basic brewing radio. BBR interviewed a home brewer in 2005 who compared oxygenation of water via aquarium pump/stone and shaking. He had the same question as the OP and decided to buy an o2 meter on ebay to find the answer.

You can read his results here: http://www.brewangels.com/Beerformation/AerationMethods.pdf

He found that you could reach 90% saturation by shaking the bucket/carboy in less than 5 minutes. Aquarium pumps at various pressures took longer.

Good article although I wish they would have added pure O2 injection as another test form to compare. I'm not surprised shaking worked better than an aquarium pump at all. But I would be willing to bet O2 with a stone would significantly out perform all other methods in much less time with more calculated results.

 

[Brewskii]

You probably don't want more anecdotal info but...
I brewed a cream ale that took an honorable mention in a BJCP event earlier this year. I re-brewed this beer making one change for another BJCP competition this december. The change... Pure O2 using a diffusing stone and HD welding Bottle. I bled O2 for 1.5 min and swirled just after pitching with the starter.
My scores were horrible and the taste notes are all the same... Astringent. Most commented on yeast notes say it was in pirimary too long or to watch my fermentation temps.
I brewed another Cream Ale at the same time and an ESB. The ESB had the same astringent taste comments and the other cream ale (I did not enter this one) is BeirMuncher's CO3C and it is more astringent and estery in a bad way than any other time I've brewed it.
Guess what my next competition brew change is?

Btw, these were 1.056-1.062 OG brews and all were ones I've brewed before and I never had taste issues like this before.

Too much of a good thing?

 

[MaxOut]

You probably don't want more anecdotal info but...
I brewed a cream ale that took an honorable mention in a BJCP event earlier this year. I re-brewed this beer making one change for another BJCP competition this december. The change... Pure O2 using a diffusing stone and HD welding Bottle. I bled O2 for 1.5 min and swirled just after pitching with the starter.
My scores were horrible and the taste notes are all the same... Astringent. Most commented on yeast notes say it was in pirimary too long or to watch my fermentation temps.
I brewed another Cream Ale at the same time and an ESB. The ESB had the same astringent taste comments and the other cream ale (I did not enter this one) is BeirMuncher's CO3C and it is more astringent and estery in a bad way than any other time I've brewed it.
Guess what my next competition brew change is?

Btw, these were 1.056-1.062 OG brews and all were ones I've brewed before and I never had taste issues like this before.

Too much of a good thing?

Interesting...I agree too much of a good thing can be bad but I would recommend adding O2 prior to pitching yeast. Are you using a regulator or a flow meter? Without a flow meter the volume of O2 introduced is a guessing game. When I brew small batches and add O2 in the bucket the head space will limit the amount of O2 I can add due to the foam. I usually add 1.5ppm for 1.5-2 min max on 6 gallons depending on the gravity. With a straight regulator you only control pressure not volume and you could be adding way more O2 than you think. 1.5ppm will barely come out and if you were to hold the hose to your face you would barely feel the O2 coming out. Just saying based on my experiences. Anecdotal at best but consistent.
Anyone recommend an inexpensive dissolve O2 meter? I am thinking about doing some testing myself.

 

[acefaser]

You probably don't want more anecdotal info but...
I brewed a cream ale that took an honorable mention in a BJCP event earlier this year. I re-brewed this beer making one change for another BJCP competition this december. The change... Pure O2 using a diffusing stone and HD welding Bottle. I bled O2 for 1.5 min and swirled just after pitching with the starter.
My scores were horrible and the taste notes are all the same... Astringent. Most commented on yeast notes say it was in pirimary too long or to watch my fermentation temps.
I brewed another Cream Ale at the same time and an ESB. The ESB had the same astringent taste comments and the other cream ale (I did not enter this one) is BeirMuncher's CO3C and it is more astringent and estery in a bad way than any other time I've brewed it.
Guess what my next competition brew change is?

Btw, these were 1.056-1.062 OG brews and all were ones I've brewed before and I never had taste issues like this before.

Too much of a good thing?

Interesting, I've had the exact opposite in my beers. This was going from a fish tank air pump to oxygen (hard to shake 15 gallons). I wonder if it was some other process in the brew that caused the off flavors. So many variables its hard to pinpoint one step of the process. What flow rate and times were you using?

 

[grathan]

You probably don't want more anecdotal info but...
I brewed a cream ale that took an honorable mention in a BJCP event earlier this year. I re-brewed this beer making one change for another BJCP competition this december. The change... Pure O2 using a diffusing stone and HD welding Bottle. I bled O2 for 1.5 min and swirled just after pitching with the starter.
My scores were horrible and the taste notes are all the same... Astringent. Most commented on yeast notes say it was in pirimary too long or to watch my fermentation temps.
I brewed another Cream Ale at the same time and an ESB. The ESB had the same astringent taste comments and the other cream ale (I did not enter this one) is BeirMuncher's CO3C and it is more astringent and estery in a bad way than any other time I've brewed it.
Guess what my next competition brew change is?

Btw, these were 1.056-1.062 OG brews and all were ones I've brewed before and I never had taste issues like this before.

Too much of a good thing?

Perhaps some favorable esters from lack of oxygen covered up or blended the astrigency flavor in the pervious beer?

 

[grathan]

I am fairly new to brewing and have started listening to basic brewing radio. BBR interviewed a home brewer in 2005 who compared oxygenation of water via aquarium pump/stone and shaking. He had the same question as the OP and decided to buy an o2 meter on ebay to find the answer.

You can read his results here: http://www.brewangels.com/Beerformation/AerationMethods.pdf

He found that you could reach 90% saturation by shaking the bucket/carboy in less than 5 minutes. Aquarium pumps at various pressures took longer.

interesting, I too would like to have seen pure 02 results.

Do you think the starting point of %43 was because the water was only boiled for 6 minutes?

Be interesting to hear of any further testing done on an actual beer.