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WLP030 Thames Valley & WLP515 Antwerp are super-Chicos?

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Northern_Brewer

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One of the most interesting things to come out of the Gallone et al yeast family tree paper from 2016 is the presence of two strains, of Belgian and British origin respectively, at the heart of the US group of yeast typified by Chico and BRY-97. Presumably they represent a connection with the origins of that group. Suregork & friends' recent work has tentatively identified them as WLP030 Thames Valley & WLP515 Antwerp, and the White Labs description of them certainly sounds plausible :

WLP030
: "Very flocculant strain for all things English. Great for porters, stouts and ESBs. Lower ester production than most English strains but creates a bigger mouthfeel than most cleaner strains. Attenuation 72-78%"

WLP515: "Clean, almost lager-like Belgian-type ale yeast. Good for producing Belgian-style pale and amber ales, or for blends combining other Belgian-type strains. Presents a biscuity aroma while accentuating hop flavors and bitterness. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation, which can give the yeast a lager-like flavor profile. Medium flocculation, attenuation 73-80%, 67-70°F (19-21°C)"

Looking at the Gallone phenotype data which analysed esters etc produced at 30°C, almost nothing is as clean as WLP030, it's much cleaner than WLP001 for instance. Assuming Suregork's identifications are correct, the only yeast that are cleaner are WLP023 Burton (which is below average for all esters and fusels tested, but is a rather different yeast) and WLP320 American Hefe, along with the POF+ WLP037 Yorkshire Square and the POF+ BE087 ale-yeast-from-lager which _may_ be WLP800 Pilsner. One other mystery is where it might have come from - I'm struggling with the idea of porters and stouts in the Thames Valley, unless it was from Courage or something? Unfortunately the fact that it's been a Vault strain that appeared to be "just another English strain" means there's very few reviews of it, but it's got to be worth a go as a yeast that appears to be cleaner and better floccing than Chico? If nothing else it would allow British brewers (and Belgians with WLP515) to claim some local terroir when brewing their hoppy stuff?

WLP515 has been released on a regular basis in September-ish and is now on the Vault waiting list. Omega explicitly say that their OYL-049 Belgian Ale DK is equivalent, and Wyeast 3655-PC Belgian Schelde is a clean yeast "from East Flanders-Antwerpen". Or it could be easier to just buy a bottle of de Koninck - I've not seen anything definite to say that they bottle with the production strain but it certainly has lots of yeast. They actually make quite a feature of drinking the dregs after the beer, other breweries even make branded shot glasses for the purpose.

The DNA and phenotype data suggests that WLP515 is best regarded as a sibling of BRY-97, WLP051 California V and WLP090 San Diego - clean but with a characteristic spike in propyl acetate (pear/pear drops). But noone thinks of it like that because of the name, so they make Belgian beers with it when perhaps they would be better making hoppy stuff instead. But they seem to like it :

I just went to White Lab's tap room last week and tried a Porter brewed with 5 different yeast strains and was immediately and fully SHOCKED at the huge mouthfeel from White Lab's "Antwerp Ale" strain. 5 beers brewed with the same wort and 5 different yeast strains; one with hugely velvety mouthfeel.
It's a nice, very mellow, belgian strain that puts off a lot of sulphur during fermentation. Probably the cleanest "belgian" yeast I've used. Don't expect a lot of belgian estery/phenolic quality from it....
I was pretty disappointed with 515. It can be super clean without any Belgian character if you don't hit the right temp ranges...
It is a cleanish strain, with a nice smooth mouthfeel, and only a very subtle fruit/spice belgian charecter. It also makes a solid biere de garde...
I absolutely love 515, best Belgian strain out there, imo. But I'm not much of a fan of the overly phenolic and estery character us Americans tend to expect in Belgian ale. [@Brulosopher]...
The finished beer initially had a pretty big citrus zing, more than I would have liked. In talking to other people, it was probably a combination of the yeast (others have said it tends to have citrus notes)...Definitely minimal esters! I'd say it's almost bordering on boring, to the point that I might as well have just used US-05...
It's about as clean as you'll get for an ale yeast. I have got some plum out of higher temps...
Tastes & smells like a Belgian style ale thankfully. Not a lot of esters, which is what I was looking for...
I highly recommend the DeKoninck strain, WLP515 Antwerp Ale Yeast. It's clean-fermenting with a slight fruitiness. I ferment low, around 64, then lager for a month as I prefer my BPA super clean, but a lot of folks around here ferment 515 in the low 70's with a saison-ish temperature ramp to boost the esters.
I used the Wyeast Schelde in my Belgian Pale Ale this winter and it got me 3rd place in its category at the War of the Worts here on the east coast. It fermented a little cool (around 63F) but there was a tartness I don't get from other strains....
The Antwerp was definitely more subdued...almost too subdued and rather one dimensional...
I plan on keeping it down near 66 for the first few days, letting it rise, and then cold conditioning in the garage, to try to replicate the process used at DeKoninck.
seems to bottom ferment, produces a tiny krausen, and kicks off lots of sulfur just like many lager strains. At 68*F it is mostly clean but a little spicy, has a great character without all the crazy phenolics a lot of Belgians produce. If you can find it, I would recommend you give it a try, I love that yeast.
Fermenting in the low 70s (ambient temperature) worked out great. The beer ended up with a good amount of belgian funk to it.
White Labs reviews :
"My Favorite Yeast"
I concluded that WLP515 was consistently creating the types of beer I fell in love with while in Belgium...Fermenting this yeast on the cool end of the spectrum (64-65F) in a pale beer together with the right amount of noble hops (this yeast pairs perfectly with Tettnanger), will resemble something close to a German Pils, with just a touch of esters and almost non-existent phenols. Fermenting on the higher end (70-71F) will, in my opinion, create the most amazing Belgian style blonds or dubbels you've ever had, producing a very subtle and balanced background of esters and phenols. Looking to brew a Belgian style Pale Ale? Ferment with this strain mid-range (67-68F) and you'll hit a home run.
"LOVE this strain, wish it was more readily available. "
I've used this strain a few times now to make a belgian amber loosely based on Palm Speciale. I've tried a few other strains but none of them quit hit the mark. Does not have the strong phenolic or ester character of most belgians, but instead does a good job of balancing the malt and hops. Just won my first home brew competition using this strain.
Fermented an all-grain batch with O.G. of 1.060 at 64-66F. Final result had a sharp, mildly unpleasant after-taste at 6 weeks that completely disappeared by 8 weeks, leaving a very tasty brew - wow!
If Belgium could lay claim to a WLP001 California Ale type of yeast, WLP515 Antwerp Ale could possibly be it. It ferments out clean-like (as Belgian yeast goes) and it displays favoritism to hops – simply use less, if you prefer, and the malt balance is there. It does a very good job at making refreshing lighter beers and they tend to taste better fresh as opposed to modestly aged – you may notice some spice or citrus zest adjustment is necessary in the recipe as the beer mellows. WLP515 is fairly active in the first generation and it is a relatively fast ferment once it gets underway and in successive generations. It consistently has a rocky kraeusen even if fermented lower than the recommended temperature range. It will ferment quite successfully at 48-50 degrees F and is surprisingly active in this temperature range – most other ale yeasts would seem pretty sleepy – and it is even faster than many lager yeasts in this range. But for fermentation time versus flavor profile WLP515 really shines at about 65 degrees F or so – this gives the most flavor bang for the buck. If you want lots of earth or fruit or banana or bubble gun or spicy phenolic flavors in your beer then this yeast will disappoint you – it’s much too tame for that.
 
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TANSTAAFB

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Wow, thanks for the extensive write up! I know I'll be checking the club yeast bank for these and will give them a shot. The Antwerp sounds like it would make a perfect house strain as I tend to brew simple, clean, sessionable beers for my lovely wife and BMC drinking friends (gotta admit, they've grown on me too!), hoppy brews, and Belgian influenced/ saisons.
 

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Interesting. The word in the late 90's was that the Wyeast and Whitelabs DeKonick cultures came from Fat Tire - New Belgium.

I've brewed with the DeKonick yeast via (U.Leuven) and the Whitelabs one. They are quite different, the WL being much cleaner and lager-like, with more sulfur. Makes a nice beer, although the Dekonick-Leuven is fruitier and more complex.
 

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I wonder how those would work in an ipa at room temperature. Especially the very flocculant ones.
 
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Northern_Brewer

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I'm glad to get people thinking, that's all I ask - but it's even better if I get you brewing! It's worth noting that we don't definitely know that WLP030 and WLP515 are the yeasts in the Gallone paper, and unless someone has access to a PCR machine then brewing is the only way we're going to get an idea of whether this hypothesis is correct. It's also important to note that the Gallone paper only looked for certain esters and fusels, it didn't do full taste tests - WLP023 comes out super-clean on their tests but anecdotal evidence suggests it's not quite that simple.

So ideally one would do something simple like kolsch, or a SMaSH with Cascade or Mandarina or that hop you've been meaning to try out, and split it into gallon buckets/carboys with WLP030, WLP515, WLP041, WLP090 and dry BRY-97. Keep it simple and don't overwhelm the yeast character with hops.

Or split the next brew you were doing anyway, and see whether your next porter gains extra mouthfeel from WLP030 like White Labs did with WLP515, or what a NEIPA is like with WLP515 and a pinch of T-58, alongside your usual yeasts. Just play around - it's bound to be more interesting than yet another brew with Chico.

I've brewed with the DeKonick yeast via (U.Leuven) and the Whitelabs one. They are quite different, the WL being much cleaner and lager-like, with more sulfur. Makes a nice beer, although the Dekonick-Leuven is fruitier and more complex.
That's interesting - was the Leuven version a multistrain or single? It does sound a bit more like the Wyeast version, I'm sure I read somewhere that the Wyeast one made less sulphur. It wouldn't surprise me though, we know there's differences between the "Chicos" (confirmed by genome sequencing) and I imagine the difference comes from one lab taking yeast from a yeastbank and one acquiring it at some distance from the yeastbank after it's gone through many generations at a brewery. I do have some de Koninck rattling round the cellar, so one of the things I want to do is a side-by-side with it and the lab versions.

PS @Miraculix - you don't need to post to subscribe to threads, there's a "Watch Thread" button top left...
 

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Isn’t Chico technically a bottom fermenting strain? More similar to a lager strain than an ale strain? Has anyone ever tried to ferment Chico at 50* with a lager pitching rate?
 

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Intrigued. I avoid chico when I can, so I'm especially interested in Thames for clean ales. Cheers!
 
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Northern_Brewer

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Once you start looking closely at DNA, the whole idea of "lager yeast" gets complicated. Yes, there are two separate groups of S.cerevisiae-eubayanus hybrids that account for many of the classic lagers - but ~10% of the ale yeasts that Gallone et al sequenced are being used for commercial lager production, including members of the saison family and all sorts. Even WLP800 Pilsner, allegedly from Urquell, appears to be an ale yeast. It's a real mess. Furthermore, British breweries that have moved from open fermentation to conicals have seen their yeast evolve from top-cropping to bottom-cropping within a few generations.

So what is a "lager yeast"?

Like much of biology, these things are a continuum, yeast don't know that they're meant to be making lager, they just try to eat what they can in the conditions they're presented with. We've seen people making decent lager with hybrid yeast at ale temperatures, and kolsches can be very clean beers made with ale yeast at "lager" temperatures. So you're the head brewer, just give it a go! ;)
 
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So per my sig, I did a basic golden ale with ~15 litres split into four with Mangrove Jack M36, WLP030, WLP515 and WLP4000 (TYB Conan). I'd got 100g of Tolhurst cones, an old heritage hop variety found in 1882 that was quite widely grown in Mid Kent in the early 20th century, all I knew about them was that they were popular with growers (high yield) but not with brewers (an analysis with 2.2% alpha may suggest why). Out of the pack there were some signs of browning and an initial rub suggested a mild lemoniness and soapiness suggesting linalool.

In keeping with the heritage theme, I got some Chevallier heritage malt, the dominant British malting barley of the 19th century, intending to use it 100%. But talking to a commercial brewer who had used it got me a bit scared about it overwhelming a modest hop like Tolhurst, so I dialed it back to 2:1 Otter:Chevallier at 1047 OG. Bit of EKG to bitter, and then 95g of the Tolhurst at 15/5/whirlpool.

Slight problem with staying awake meant that the whirlpool turned into an accidental no-chill overnight, and some glitches with my heater means it fermented at more like 17C (63F) rather than the intended 19C (66F). I checked in after 21 hours and M36 and 030 were racing away with a healthy krausen, 4000 had a modest krausen, and there was no sign of activity on 515.

Unfortunately I was called away and wasn't able to monitor what happened next. But after 11 days the 515 was down to 1012 (74%) and the rest at 1015 (67%) - M36 usually does a bit more for me, I'd expect it to be more like 1011 or so. After that the schedule is 2 days at 22C (72F) then cold crash without gelatine to see what the floccing is like.

Have to say that even at 33%, the Chevallier is rather overwhelming the hops in the gravity samples, there's a definite flapjack character with maybe a hint of shortbread. Really not getting a whole heap from the Tolhurst, even at 0.85oz/USgal - hint of lemon maybe? Definite peardrops from the Conan but otherwise there's not much sign of esters from any of them. 515 had a bit more hop presence and presented it with more definition, but this beer is maybe not the best one to show off the differences between the yeasts. We'll see what the final beers end up like.
 

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Thanks for the report.

I also just bought 5kg of Chevallier and my intention was to use it in a saaz smash, an adopted version of the 18th century recipe you've shown me. Now that you say that it is quite intense, it is becoming even more interesting.
 
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I've got a bottle of the Victorian IPA that this brewer made with Chevallier, he ended up throwing 120IBU or so at it to tame it. I think you definitely want to use tricks to dry it out a bit, whether that's using simple sugars in the grist, high-attenuating yeast etc. and you don't want a wallflower hop which is what I used. I imagine some of the classic Wye hops would work well with it - Challenger, Target etc - in quantity.

It certainly puts some perspective on why crystal wasn't a thing back then.
 

Miraculix

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I've got a bottle of the Victorian IPA that this brewer made with Chevallier, he ended up throwing 120IBU or so at it to tame it. I think you definitely want to use tricks to dry it out a bit, whether that's using simple sugars in the grist, high-attenuating yeast etc. and you don't want a wallflower hop which is what I used. I imagine some of the classic Wye hops would work well with it - Challenger, Target etc - in quantity.

It certainly puts some perspective on why crystal wasn't a thing back then.
Interesting, I read on multiple resources that the FG should be higher compared to modern malts, but that this shouldn't contribute to perceived sweetness but only to mouthfeel.

I certainly do not want to brew 25l of beer that I do not like at the end, happened with the last 2 bigger batches and I really try to avoid this.

On the other hand, I don't have smaller fermentors available.

What I could do is replace 50% of the grist with bohemian Pilsener. But I would really like to know how this one tastes on its own...... Ahhh decisions decisions....

.... Or I just mash really really low, like 59ish low.

Btw. Sorry for ot, maybe another thread is a better place for in depth discussion of my recipes.
 
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Yep, I think Chevallier deserves a thread in its own right, it's a fascinating topic and becoming an increasing "thing". Might be worth doing just a "saucepan" brew with a kg or so, just to get a handle on it. I've never had M36 go over 1013 before with just Otter and normally it's 1011/12, so 1015 with 1/3 Chevallier is a significant difference.
 

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I would also like to see a separate thread for Chevallier malt; that said, I'm on my third sack of the stuff.

My experience has been that it does leave a higher FG, although beers that finish at 1.016 still taste like they are 1.010. The body and mouthfeel are increased though. I've enjoyed it best when used in big, historical recipes with darker grains.

Where I do not care for the malt is in low gravity beers that do not include some sort of sugar or adjunct; the Chev flavor can be too heavy and ful for a standard bitter and the like. Add in 8% no 1 invert and the same beer is much more enjoyable.

Edit. I came here to say I re-propagated my OG DeKonick culture and will be doing a side-by-side lab scale fermentation with the WhiteLabs version.
 

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I read your detailed statement in another thread when you were on your 2nd sack, thanks for updating! I will try to pull the knowledge from the other threads together into one thread tonight or tomorrow and open another thread. Will have to bottle my experimental stouts tonight, don't know if I am going to have enough time for everything tonight.
 

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So per my sig, I did a basic golden ale with ~15 litres split into four with Mangrove Jack M36, WLP030, WLP515 and WLP4000 (TYB Conan). I'd got 100g of Tolhurst cones, an old heritage hop variety found in 1882 that was quite widely grown in Mid Kent in the early 20th century, all I knew about them was that they were popular with growers (high yield) but not with brewers (an analysis with 2.2% alpha may suggest why). Out of the pack there were some signs of browning and an initial rub suggested a mild lemoniness and soapiness suggesting linalool.

In keeping with the heritage theme, I got some Chevallier heritage malt, the dominant British malting barley of the 19th century, intending to use it 100%. But talking to a commercial brewer who had used it got me a bit scared about it overwhelming a modest hop like Tolhurst, so I dialed it back to 2:1 Otter:Chevallier at 1047 OG. Bit of EKG to bitter, and then 95g of the Tolhurst at 15/5/whirlpool.

Slight problem with staying awake meant that the whirlpool turned into an accidental no-chill overnight, and some glitches with my heater means it fermented at more like 17C (63F) rather than the intended 19C (66F). I checked in after 21 hours and M36 and 030 were racing away with a healthy krausen, 4000 had a modest krausen, and there was no sign of activity on 515.

Unfortunately I was called away and wasn't able to monitor what happened next. But after 11 days the 515 was down to 1012 (74%) and the rest at 1015 (67%) - M36 usually does a bit more for me, I'd expect it to be more like 1011 or so. After that the schedule is 2 days at 22C (72F) then cold crash without gelatine to see what the floccing is like.

Have to say that even at 33%, the Chevallier is rather overwhelming the hops in the gravity samples, there's a definite flapjack character with maybe a hint of shortbread. Really not getting a whole heap from the Tolhurst, even at 0.85oz/USgal - hint of lemon maybe? Definite peardrops from the Conan but otherwise there's not much sign of esters from any of them. 515 had a bit more hop presence and presented it with more definition, but this beer is maybe not the best one to show off the differences between the yeasts. We'll see what the final beers end up like.
Any update on the final beers... very interested in WLP030 and 515
 

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that second WLP515 review is actually mine. it has a nice balance of malt and hops and is very clean, though does have a slight character to it i can't quite put my finger on. does throw some sulfur when fermenting and needs a couple weeks to condition and get the best flavor. was really disappointed they did not have it as a seasonal stain this past fall. i'm going to try my palm speciale recipe once more with a kolsch yeast and see how it turns out. i've thought about getting the omega yeast DK, but it's only available to homebrewers through northern brewer. i never order from them and don't want to pay $17 for a pack of yeast. would love if it was more available so i could try it in different styles.

is WLP030 the same as wyeast 1275? might try it.

on the plus side, it is being release again this sept/oct as as a seasonal strain. it's also a vault strain w/ 114 orders to ship. i'll probably sign up for a few just to push it towards production.
 

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i've thought about getting the omega yeast DK, but it's only available to homebrewers through northern brewer. i never order from them and don't want to pay $17 for a pack of yeast.
Yeah I've been to their website a couple times since finding this thread but I just refuse. I put an order from the Vault but that's a pretty sorry hope. Those seem to take quite a while.
 

domdom

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Yeah I've been to their website a couple times since finding this thread but I just refuse. I put an order from the Vault but that's a pretty sorry hope. Those seem to take quite a while.
might be easier if northern brewer was not so overpriced (and owned by inbev). might be a little more forgivable if the prices weren't higher than online sites or LHBS.
 

ba-brewer

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i've thought about getting the omega yeast DK, but it's only available to homebrewers through northern brewer. i never order from them and don't want to pay $17 for a pack of yeast.
Midwest now has free shipping, the omega yeast DK is 10.99 shipped. A little better than $17 and not that bad if you use it a couple time. The vault comes out to $9 shipped.
 
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was really disappointed they did not have it as a seasonal stain this past fall. i'm going to try my palm speciale recipe once more with a kolsch yeast and see how it turns out. i've thought about getting the omega yeast DK, but it's only available to homebrewers through northern brewer. i never order from them and don't want to pay $17 for a pack of yeast. would love if it was more available so i could try it in different styles.
The DNA suggests BRY-97/WLP051/1272 would be a better match for 515 than a kolsch yeast.

515 was available this last year, that's how I got it!

If you're into rare yeasts though, it's probably time for you to learn how to maintain them at home, it's not that difficult.

is WLP030 the same as wyeast 1275? might try it.
Almost certainly not - Mr Malty links 1275 to WLP023, I don't know how reliable that is. I've seen nothing on the origins of WLP030, just that the DNA appears to put it very close to Chico.

@couchsending - I've not quite managed to have the full side-by-side tasting yet, as they've definitely been benefiting from conditioning, and I definitely want to have another brew with them as Tolhurst really is as flavourless as brewers of a century ago made out! So I'll repeat with a more normal grist and hoppier hops, probably alongside BRY-97/WLP051. They both seem pretty clean, but 515 seems to be a bit more hop-forward on the evidence of the bottles I've had so far.
 
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So, final report on the Tolhust/Chevallier brews. Overall it wasn't a great success in testing the yeasts, even disregarding the labelling mixup. The Tolhurst were just too flavourless, there wasn't a great deal of hop character whereas the Chevallier did contribute more character to the malt compared to a straight Otter brew. I guess it was a bit like a dubbel-ified version of a golden ale, or an 1880s version of Doom Bar. It was very drinkable, just not really a) my kind of pale and b) not great for testing yeast that may bring out hoppiness.

In fact, I ended up drinking quite a lot of it without making any notes. But the one that I think was 515 was the one I kept coming back to, in the early weeks it did have a bit more defined hop character. The one I think was 030 flocced hard into little "rocks", but the putative 515 also cleared pretty well. They were noticeably cleaner than what I think was WLP4000 and M36, although I think the latter suffered from a bit of an underpitch.

So an unsatisfactory experiment, but I'll try them again with something more obviously hoppy, I've got some Ahtanum than needs using up.

In other news - Wyeast have released 3655-PC Belgian Schelde as one of their seasonals for April-June 2018, along with 5151-PC Brett-C and 3191-PC Berliner Weisse Blend. It's not in stock yet at the best distributor for their stuff here, but hopefully I'll be able to get some.

WLP515 is due for a seasonal release in September-October 2018 and is progessing slowly at 108 to go on its Vault release (the two work pretty much independently). WLP030 has 123 to go. Omega Belgian DK is currently out of stock at the "other" Northern Brewer (no connection!).
 

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@Northern_Brewer dis you pick up any Belgian Character in the 515 ferment? Mouthfeel similar between 030 and 515? Dying to try these yeasts but who knows how long a vault release will take... maybe we need to start a rumor that WLP030 is the strain Hill Farmstead uses or that it produces the juiciest and haziest beers ever!!! Vault release would happen in no time
 

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And I did just order up some 3655 although I’m thinking it will have slightly more Belgian character than 510
 
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Why should they have any Belgian character at all? They don't absorb Belgian-ness just because people are speaking Flemish in the brewery any more than Morgan Freeman has changed his skin colour through working with white people. Forget the Antwerp thing, this is just another sibling of Chico.

I don't want to say too much about the comparison with 030, aside from the possible label mixup the beer just wasn't the right one to show off their qualities. But the ones I think were 030 and 515 were much cleaner than WLP4000 and underpitched M36, not sure there was any meaningful difference in mouthfeel on these particular beers.

To be fair, I think this thread was responsible for 20-odd orders on the Vault, think the best option is to just wait for September given what I've seen of other strains. If you think this is bad, just be thankful you're not waiting for some of the more obscure Vault strains which will release in 2030 at the current rate of pre-orders! Presumably they'll do a Vault amnesty release before then though. 3655 should do you just fine, or if you get really antsy just get a bottle of de Koninck...
 
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So - the new White Labs catalogue places some of their strains on the Gallone family tree, and it turns out Suregork's team guessed right for almost all of them - apart from WLP029 and WLP030 which were given code numbers out of sequence and actually fall together as cousins to the Whitbread B family, between WLP002 "Fuller's" and WLP041 "Redhook". So WLP029 isn't in the main kolsch group with eg WLP003, and WLP030 isn't a Chico. See comments in http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4000

However it does mean there still an unidentified English beer whose yeast falls in the Chico group - it's unlikely to be a commercially-available yeast though. And there's no definite confirmation that 515 is a Chico either, it's one of five that White Labs haven't confirmed.

Rather explains why I wasn't quite feeling it with WLP030 - whilst clean it just didn't have that real precision and hop-pop that you'd expect from a Chico and which I was getting from the beer I think is 515, and the rocky flocculation was atypical too. So those getting antsy about 030 can relax a bit now. :) Still no sign of Schelde here though.

The other big news from the White Labs catalogue is that WLP051 California V is a lager yeast, which could mean that Lallemand BRY-97 and 1272 are lager hybrids too.

As you can see from my sig I'm in the middle of an unrelated brew, and I'd quite like to get my Christmas beer on the go soon as well. So not sure whether I'm going to get another brew on this front before the summer, when I'm planning to play with some kveiks and English saisons, but at the moment I'm going to wait for Schelde and try and do a 515/Schelde/Chico comparison before it gets into kveik season....
 

couchsending

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Schelde going into the fermenter tonight! First attempt at a “Belgian Pale”...

Chateau Belgian pale
Rahr 2 Row
Chateau Aromatic
Cara Aroma

Strisselspalt @ 60, 20, 180 WP

1.049

Think I’m going to ferment around 64...
 
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Have you used French hops before? They're quite...dull, but they do taste of Kronenbourg!
 

dmtaylor

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So - the new White Labs catalogue places some of their strains on the Gallone family tree, and it turns out Suregork's team guessed right for almost all of them - apart from WLP029 and WLP030 which were given code numbers out of sequence and actually fall together as cousins to the Whitbread B family, between WLP002 "Fuller's" and WLP041 "Redhook". So WLP029 isn't in the main kolsch group with eg WLP003, and WLP030 isn't a Chico. See comments in http://beer.suregork.com/?p=4000

However it does mean there still an unidentified English beer whose yeast falls in the Chico group - it's unlikely to be a commercially-available yeast though. And there's no definite confirmation that 515 is a Chico either, it's one of five that White Labs haven't confirmed.

Rather explains why I wasn't quite feeling it with WLP030 - whilst clean it just didn't have that real precision and hop-pop that you'd expect from a Chico and which I was getting from the beer I think is 515, and the rocky flocculation was atypical too. So those getting antsy about 030 can relax a bit now. :) Still no sign of Schelde here though.

The other big news from the White Labs catalogue is that WLP051 California V is a lager yeast, which could mean that Lallemand BRY-97 and 1272 are lager hybrids too.

As you can see from my sig I'm in the middle of an unrelated brew, and I'd quite like to get my Christmas beer on the go soon as well. So not sure whether I'm going to get another brew on this front before the summer, when I'm planning to play with some kveiks and English saisons, but at the moment I'm going to wait for Schelde and try and do a 515/Schelde/Chico comparison before it gets into kveik season....
OMG OMG OMG! Gonna take me a week to absorb all this!!
 

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Have you used French hops before? They're quite...dull, but they do taste of Kronenbourg!
Haven’t, I make so many beers with piles of hops my palate is pretty much shot anyways... we’ll see how it turns out. Only suposses to be 25 IBUs. Was thinking of splitting and maybe dry hopping one half with maybe some Mandarina or some new German hop for the hell of it.
 
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They're a relative of Hersbrucker if that gives you any idea, don't expect fireworks. It just feels like a bit of a waste using 515/Schelde on "subtle" beer from my meagre experience with it, I think you do want to be using it on the kind of beer that you'd use Chico in. So yeah, definitely throw some Mandarina or Wolf or Dragon or something.
 

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Have you tried wolf? I did a smash with it and while it does have really unique fruit character it is straight dill, worse than Sorachi Ace! Cardinal is the one I’ve been hoping to try but I can’t find it anywhere in the US.
 
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Some people like that sort of thing! No I've not tried it, although a friend used one of those new Styrians which I think was Wolf and it was somewhat fruity but otherwise unremarkable. [Edit - it was Cardinal at bittering + 3g/l spread across 10/0/dry] The new Styrians are on my hop to-do list, but not near the top so maybe give it another year or so and I''ll get round to them! I think Dragon sounds interesting; the UK shops are quite good for obscure Euro hops, both BrewUK and TMM (no affiliations other than as customer) have Cardinal and others, although I guess you can get them cheaper from Slovenia.
 

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I was just looking into using WLP515 so this is a timely thread! My thought is to use it in a clone of Leinenkugel's Cherry Doppelschwarz. It's an ~8% beer and I'm going for really big mouthfeel with a clean flavor. Thoughts on this in that application? It sounds like White Labs' version of a porter with this had good mouthfeel. Think I would likely ferment in the lower 60's to keep it clean.

Obviously this isn't available right now so I'd probably do Omega OYL-049 which they say is the same
 
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The Chevallier kinda swamped things so I wouldn't like to say too much about the mouthfeel, but if that's important I'd be tempted to go with something with a bit less attenuation like WLP036.
 

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Brewed with both the Wyeast Belgian Schelde and the Omega Belgian Ale DK (which is supposedly WLP515) in the last few months. They are definitely very similar yeasts although I’m not sure they’re exactly the same. Definitely very low in the traditional “Belgian” character. Made a similar beer with both, a Belgian Pale Ale of sorts using mostly Belgian malts (Pale, aromatic, touch of Cara Aroma for color). First one with Schelde was maybe more traditionally hopped, second one used Ella and Mandarina Bavaria in whirl and a small DH.

Didn’t get any detectable sulfur in either. They definitely have great malt
character although that could be attributed to the Belgian Pale and aromatic more than anything. On a side note I think the Dingeman’a pale malt might be the best tasting base malt I’ve had in regards to just chewing on the grains.

Might try brewing a more traditional hoppy beer with the DK to see how it turns out. And maybe something along the lines of De Ranke XX Bitter or Taras Boulba, maybe my two favorites beers right now. Been researching those beers a ton lately, can’t get enough of them. Just wish they were easier to find.
 
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