Wildflower Honey - Bitter Finish?

[Sean75]

Ive made three batches and every one has developed a bitter finish, right on the end it hits and leaves a crushed aspirin flavor that lingers. It’s so strong with the two traditionals that unless it ages out I’d consider them undrinkable. So far, with age it gets a little better but doesn’t seem to go away.

The first one was using D47 and the other two are Wyeast 1388. I’ve been using Starsan which couldn’t be doing it - the only thing I could think of was the honey. All three are made with a local raw wildflower honey.

Yesterday I picked up a bottle of Moonlight Meadery Desire, their Semi-Sweet Traditional Wildflower Honey mead, and Bam there it was, right on the finish - not as strong a bitterness as mine but just the same. A light crushed-aspirin bitterness that stays on the palate. Is that a characteristic of wildflower mead?

 

[Maylar]

No. A dry mead will be a bit acidic but not bitter. Semi sweet should taste like honey.

 

[specialkayme]

There is no such thing as "wildflower" honey. It's just a descriptor that means that it isn't from one predominant floral source. Wildflower honey from Florida is different than wildflower honey from PA, or CA, because the nectar sources are different. Wildflower in my area from March will be different than wildflower honey from August, as different plants are in bloom during that time. Heck, wildflower honey can be different from year to year, even in the same location and time of year, as temperature swings may cause different plants to bloom one year over another (some years I'll extract honey and it will come out with a redish tint, indicitive of tulip poplar, while another year it will come out golden, depending on moisture content and rain and temps predominantly). The wildflower honey moonlight meadery used is different than the wildflower honey you used (most likely, I don't know where they sourced it from or where you live). But you get the idea.

I'll preface this by saying that I know a literal boatload more about honey than I do about mead, but I think you're chasing down the wrong path by targeting "wildflower" honey.

 

[Sean75]

There is no such thing as "wildflower" honey. It's just a descriptor that means that it isn't from one predominant floral source. Wildflower honey from Florida is different than wildflower honey from PA, or CA, because the nectar sources are different. Wildflower in my area from March will be different than wildflower honey from August, as different plants are in bloom during that time. Heck, wildflower honey can be different from year to year, even in the same location and time of year, as temperature swings may cause different plants to bloom one year over another (some years I'll extract honey and it will come out with a redish tint, indicitive of tulip poplar, while another year it will come out golden, depending on moisture content and rain and temps predominantly). The wildflower honey moonlight meadery used is different than the wildflower honey you used (most likely, I don't know where they sourced it from or where you live). But you get the idea.

I'll preface this by saying that I know a literal boatload more about honey than I do about mead, but I think you're chasing down the wrong path by targeting "wildflower" honey.

Sounds good. Then where is that bitter finish coming from? My traditionals are near-undrinkable and I’m sure Moonlight Meadery knows what they’re doing - why would they allow their product to have such a dominant Off-note?

 

[Maylar]

Sounds good. Then where is that bitter finish coming from? My traditionals are near-undrinkable and I’m sure Moonlight Meadery knows what they’re doing - why would they allow their product to have such a dominant Off-note?

It could just be your taste buds. Some people can detect stuff that others can't. I've had cider judges say my cider had off flavors that nobody else could notice. Maybe you just don't like mead. Does anybody else detect that in your mead?

 

[Sean75]

It could just be your taste buds. Some people can detect stuff that others can't. I've had cider judges say my cider had off flavors that nobody else could notice. Maybe you just don't like mead. Does anybody else detect that in your mead?

Do all traditional mead have a bitter finish? I’ll have my wife taste it but there’s no way this is just some kind of finicky pickiness on my part. This is a strong flavor that no one could miss. Crushed Aspirin. You’re not gonna miss that.

 

[bernardsmith]

What is your fermenting protocol. Could chemicals have leached from a container you are using? It is possible that the yeast are producing fusel oils that result in off flavors. It's perhaps possible that the honey you are using may not be 100 percent pure honey. Do you know the apiarist? Did you taste the honey before fermenting it?

 

[Sean75]

First of all, thanks for helping me sort this out. For brevity I’ll just show my first D47 mead and see if you notice anything off.

3 gallons Poland Spring
12 lbs raw unfiltered wildflower
1 packet D47
1 tsp Fermex
1 tsp Yeast Energizer
OG 1.107
Degassed/aerated and staggered nutrient addition for two more days
3/4 tsp Potassium Bicarbonate on 5th day to buffer a dropping acidity
1 tsp more Pot Bicarb on day 6
Racked on day 12
After a total of 13 days it reached .0998, 14% abv
Bitterness was strong at this point
Cold crashed on day 13 for 5 days
2nd racking on day 17
Camden tabs added at day 28
It is now just under 2 months old, bitter finish overpowering still

 

[Sean75]

What is your fermenting protocol. Could chemicals have leached from a container you are using? It is possible that the yeast are producing fusel oils that result in off flavors. It's perhaps possible that the honey you are using may not be 100 percent pure honey. Do you know the apiarist? Did you taste the honey before fermenting it?

Could be my process. Used a regular fermenting bucket, don’t know anything about the honey except it’s 100% raw unfiltered local wildflower that I got from by brew store which is very reputable

 

[Maylar]

Do all traditional mead have a bitter finish?

No, definitely not. Depending on yeast used, honey, your protocol, and any adjuncts a dry traditional will be a bit acidic needing back sweetening or it could be excellent right out of the fermentor. But bitter is't something I've experienced.

I’ll have my wife taste it but there’s no way this is just some kind of finicky pickiness on my part. This is a strong flavor that no one could miss. Crushed Aspirin. You’re not gonna miss that.

The reason I mentioned your taste being over sensitive is that you said you get the same bitterness from a well respected commercial meadery.

 

[Maylar]

What did you use for nutrient, and how much?

 

[Sean75]

No, definitely not. Depending on yeast used, honey, your protocol, and any adjuncts a dry traditional will be a bit acidic needing back sweetening or it could be excellent right out of the fermentor. But bitter is't something I've experienced.



The reason I mentioned your taste being over sensitive is that you said you get the same bitterness from a well respected commercial meadery.

Good to know. I taste and distribute wine and spirits for a living and do beer judging and am a spirit judge for a trade magazine. I. Pretty good at tasting and getting it right. I don’t think this is a quirk with my sense of taste. I mean, a crushed aspirin flavor s hard for anyone to miss.

 

[A-man]

You have a fair amount of added potassium. Enough potassium ions floating in there can give a bitter taste.

Did you test pH, just asking not being critical, but you may not have needed the 2nd potassium carbonate addition.

 

[Sean75]

You have a fair amount of added potassium. Enough potassium ions floating in there can give a bitter taste.

Did you test pH, just asking not being critical, but you may not have needed the 2nd potassium carbonate addition.

PH was 3.35 and I added 3/4 tsp, next day it was still low at 3.41 so I added 1 tsp and then it was 3.6. Do you think those additions did it?

 

[Sean75]

What did you use for nutrient, and how much?

Posted above

 

[Maylar]

Also -

Every brewer/winemaker/meadmaker etc should be familiar with the taste of every item he/she uses. That means StarSan, yeast, nutrients etc. Maybe you should taste the nutrients and pH buffers you used and see if they are the source of your bitterness.

 

[Sean75]

Also -

Every brewer/winemaker/meadmaker etc should be familiar with the taste of every item he/she uses. That means StarSan, yeast, nutrients etc. Maybe you should taste the nutrients and pH buffers you used and see if they are the source of your bitterness.

Good point. I’ll check it out. Nutrients are ok to taste right? Gonna go ahead pass on the Starsan.

 

[Maylar]

I suppose dipping a spoon into StarSan and licking it wouldn't hurt us. Most people don't rinse it off (I do). I know that yeast can't use nutrients after about 9% ABV and if you use DAP you'll taste what gets left behind. I think "bitter" was the description I read on that.

A dilute mix of anything we use should be harmless.

Googling mead faults only shows bitter as a consequence of chemicals.

https://www.bjcp.org/meadfaults.php

 

[bernardsmith]

I think the problem might be the base you used to raise the pH. Not so much the chemicals but the quantity. Taste the K-bicarb. I think that that might be the source of the problem. A pH of almost 3.5 is not a problem. Problems of stalling occur when the pH falls below 3.0.

 

[Sean75]

I think the problem might be the base you used to raise the pH. Not so much the chemicals but the quantity. Taste the K-bicarb. I think that that might be the source of the problem. A pH of almost 3.5 is not a problem. Problems of stalling occur when the pH falls below 3.0.

I did taste the Pot Bicarb and it was just salty, didn’t get any other flavors. Also, I didn’t add nutrients past 9% abv.

 

[Sean75]

Another possibility is excessive nutrients. For a 3 gallon batch I used
Fermex - 3 tsp split over 3 days
Yeast Energizer - 3 tsp split over 3 days

Think that was too much?

 

[Seamonkey84]

I think it’s the potassium your tasting. Dissolve some in water then taste. The BOMM protocol uses potassium bicarbonate to buffer ph, but only uses 1/4 tsp per gallon. From what I’ve read, You’ll taste it at 3/4tsp per gallon, would be bitter/metallic.

 

[madscientist451]

Another possibility is excessive nutrients. For a 3 gallon batch I used
Fermex - 3 tsp split over 3 days
Yeast Energizer - 3 tsp split over 3 days

Think that was too much?

Its hard to say if its too much, but my 2 cents would be that if you want to kick your mead making to a higher level, spend $20 and get a small digital scale and weigh out your nutrients instead of measuring by teaspoons, follow the TONSA nutrient protocol and use the recommended nutrients like Fermaid O instead of a "yeast energizer". And skip the chemical additions to correct PH. My experience has been that turning winemaking (or meadmaking) into a chemistry experiment is a losing proposition unless you know exactly what you are doing, what the specific additions will do to your taste profile and what you are trying to achieve.
Did you use the potassium bicarbonate in all three batches?
Did you use the exact same honey?
Everyone has different taste, the "crushed asprin" note you are able to detect might not be something other people notice.
I'm pretty critical of my mead, cider and wine, and faults that I notice are usually NOT noticed by others. My thinking is that my "taste" isn't better, but just different, but this notion is disputed.
I recommend the Mead Made Right podcast and TONSA calculator:
https://www.meadmaderight.com/tosna.html

 

[Brett_Bellmore]

Good to know. I taste and distribute wine and spirits for a living and do beer judging and am a spirit judge for a trade magazine. I. Pretty good at tasting and getting it right. I don’t think this is a quirk with my sense of taste. I mean, a crushed aspirin flavor s hard for anyone to miss.

But the genetics of tasting "bitter" are particularly complex, with a wide variation from individual to individual. A given compound may taste horribly bitter to one person, mildly bitter to another, and be utterly tasteless to a third.

https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/ptc/

So, yes, it actually could be a quirk of your sense of taste.

 

[FunkyMunk]

As another control, try some varietal (non-"wildflower") traditionals, since it sounds like everything you've tried so far was wildflower and they all had that taste. Also, try diluting the wildflower honey (like you're making a mead must) and seeing if the flavor shows up then, or if it's only in the fermented product.

 

[A-man]

PH was 3.35 and I added 3/4 tsp, next day it was still low at 3.41 so I added 1 tsp and then it was 3.6. Do you think those additions did it?

Yes you likely added too much. The potassium bicarb will be used as a buffer rather than to dramatically raise the pH.

I did taste the Pot Bicarb and it was just salty, didn’t get any other flavors. Also, I didn’t add nutrients past 9% abv.

In high concentration, as when dry, it will taste salty but in lower concentration as in sol'n it is more likely to be bitter.

As for tasting StarSan and the like, personally I wouldn't do it. Though it is supposed to be nontoxic one of the components contains a benzene molecule and benzene is carcinogenic. I have no idea how StarSan is metabolized by the body but why take the chance when you don't have to. I rinse my sanitizers off (putting the chemicals into the public water supply and I'm considering changing sanitizers but admit I need to do more research on the component chems in the sanitizers).

I also agree you may have too much yeast nutrient.

 

[Miraculix]

Some honeys taste bitter, when the sugar is gone. Clover for example can do this. Maybe your wildflower honey was high on a specific variety that tastes bitter, when fermented out?

 

[A-man]

Also, I agree with getting a scale accurate to at least a tenth of a gram. They aren't pricey and very worthwhile.

 

[Seamonkey84]

Also, I agree with getting a scale accurate to at least a tenth of a gram. They aren't pricey and very worthwhile.

Plus makes you feel more like a mad scientist at home hehe.
but seriously, there’s almost two teaspoons of potassium bicarbonate in your gallon, you’re most likely going to taste it. You brought this up a few weeks ago
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mead-has-a-bitter-off-note.671288/#post-8700813

 

[Sean75]

I just googled the flavor of Potassium Bicarbonate. Here’s what came right up. “Potassium bicarbonate, KHCO3, is an odorless white powder that tastes slightly salty with a bitter aftertaste.“

Haha SOAB. GD. Ok, that’s 4 gallons and over $100 worth of supplies and hours of labor. Undone by a few tsp. Ugh.

Guys, thanks so much for your help in solving this. I really appreciate it.

 

[Sean75]

Y

Plus makes you feel more like a mad scientist at home hehe.
but seriously, there’s almost two teaspoons of potassium bicarbonate in your gallon, you’re most likely going to taste it. You brought this up a few weeks ago
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/mead-has-a-bitter-off-note.671288/#post-8700813

eah I’m going to get one. And yeah it’s a repeat but it’s hard to look at 4 gallons of mead and just shrug your shoulders. And this time I think we figured it out.

 

[Miraculix]

Y

eah I’m going to get one. And yeah it’s a repeat but it’s hard to look at 4 gallons of mead and just shrug your shoulders. And this time I think we figured it out.

If it is really just the bicarbonate, you could brew a second mead without carbonate and just mix the existing one in instead of using carbonate.

So you wouldn't need to throw it away.

 

[bernardsmith]

Totally agree with Miraculix. And what you can always do is blend small quantities of the problem batch with batches that don't have the bitterness you detect in this one. Though there is a downside and that is you might - you might - be spoiling good batches by adding samples of the problem batch rather than simply either giving the problem batch to people who do not detect that flavor or, worse case, pouring the bitter batch down the drain... (don't know if you can wisely compost wine)

 

[Maylar]

And FWIW, an expert mead maker I know has never used bicarbonate in any of his meads, even if they approach 3.0 pH. I have it on hand in case of a stall, but that's never happened to me. In fact, I don't usually measure pH of a mead, I just follow a proven protocol that always works.

 

[Sean75]

Totally agree with Miraculix. And what you can always do is blend small quantities of the problem batch with batches that don't have the bitterness you detect in this one. Though there is a downside and that is you might - you might - be spoiling good batches by adding samples of the problem batch rather than simply either giving the problem batch to people who do not detect that flavor or, worse case, pouring the bitter batch down the drain... (don't know if you can wisely compost wine)

It is a gamble, what’s the saying? Something about throwing good money after bad. My other concern is I’ve added sorbate and Camden to these batches and I wouldn’t want that to kill a good fermentation in a new batch. I’ve read about free vs bound sulfites and that fruit will bind up a lot. Plotting to maybe dump some fruit into the bad batch to tie up some of the sulfites then take the fruit out before adding parts of it to a new fermentation. How far down the rabbit hole will I go?

 

[Miraculix]

It is a gamble, what’s the saying? Something about throwing good money after bad. My other concern is I’ve added sorbate and Camden to these batches and I wouldn’t want that to kill a good fermentation in a new batch. I’ve read about free vs bound sulfites and that fruit will bind up a lot. Plotting to maybe dump some fruit into the bad batch to tie up some of the sulfites then take the fruit out before adding parts of it to a new fermentation. How far down the rabbit hole will I go?

Ok, under these circumstances, I would probably just put it into the corner of the room and forget about it for a few years. Then try again, still bad, dumper, good, bottling.

 

[dwhite60]

Sulphate can enhance bitterness in beer. What you're getting may be the sulphite (campden). Also, it's added potassium too. Might just lick a tablet and see what you get.

DO NOT DUMP THIS. Give it at least six months. Miracles do happen with mead. I've been shocked many time by what swill can evolve into.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[blasterooni]

Good point. I’ll check it out. Nutrients are ok to taste right? Gonna go ahead pass on the Starsan.

Starsan doesnt taste too bad just acidic I guess