Wild yeast always sour?

[HerbivorousBrewer]

Hi guys,

I've heard that one way to make a sour beer is to collect wild yeast by putting a jar of wort under a tree (still trying to figure out how to do this in Minnesota winter... indoor plants?). I'm curious if doing this will always result in a sour beer, or if sometimes you can collect yeast that leads to a non-sour beer. I've read that sometimes it can end up fruity? Do you guys have experiences collecting wild yeast, and how did it turn out?

Thanks,
DG

 

[SirSpectre]

In my experience (also in midwest) Spring is the best time to harvest wild yeast. I've done some lambic styles with wild yeast, and they are always on the tart side. I'm sure if you could isolate some strains you could have a clean one, but normally you get many strains and few bacteria in there as well.

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

In my experience (also in midwest) Spring is the best time to harvest wild yeast. I've done some lambic styles with wild yeast, and they are always on the tart side. I'm sure if you could isolate some strains you could have a clean one, but normally you get many strains and few bacteria in there as well.

From what I've read, they seem to always be tart like your experience. That would be fun to try my hand at a lambic style. I might have to see what I can collect in the spring time.

 

[Miraculix]

They don't have to be tard. Use heavily hopped wort to make sure that no bacteria can grow there. Bacteria are usually the ones that produce the most acid, although some yeasts also can do that. By making sure that bacteria won't survive you increase your chances for non sour brews.

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

They don't have to be tard. Use heavily hopped wort to make sure that no bacteria can grow there. Bacteria are usually the ones that produce the most acid, although some yeasts also can do that. By making sure that bacteria won't survive you increase your chances for non sour brews.

Never thought of adding hops to the wort to lower chance of bacteria. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Miraculix]

Never thought of adding hops to the wort to lower chance of bacteria. Thanks for the advice!

Mate, that is the main reason why hop is used in beer

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

Mate, that is the main reason why hop is used in beer

Not the main reason I use it in beer

 

[Miraculix]

Not the main reason I use it in beer

Well if you are mainly into sours then I would believe you. Otherwise not. I have brewed quite a few beers without hops and all ended up as sours.

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

Well if you are mainly into sours then I would believe you. Otherwise not. I have brewed quite a few beers without hops and all ended up as sours.

Oh interesting! Bacteria always ends up getting into them somehow and gives it a sour taste? I thought beer could be made without hops and still not be sour.

 

[Miraculix]

Oh interesting! Bacteria always ends up getting into them somehow and gives it a sour taste? I thought beer could be made without hops and still not be sour.

Theoretically possible, but very hard to do practically as lactic acid bacteria are literally sitting on everything. I tried many times, but failed every single time. They were nice beers though, but they got all sour with time. Some a little bit more, some a bit less, but they all turned sour.

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

Theoretically possible, but very hard to do practically as lactic acid bacteria are literally sitting on everything. I tried many times, but failed every single time. They were nice beers though, but they got all sour with time. Some a little bit more, some a bit less, but they all turned sour.

I might just try making a sour that way cuz why the hell not? Bottle age them and drink a couple a month to see how the sourness changes. Sounds like a fun experiment!

 

[Miraculix]

I might just try making a sour that way cuz why the hell not? Bottle age them and drink a couple a month to see how the sourness changes. Sounds like a fun experiment!

Go for it, reminds me that I still have some bottles of some gruit sours which are now over a year old.

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

Go for it, reminds me that I still have some bottles of some gruit sours which are now over a year old.

You'll have to let me know how it is after aging over a year! Cheers! And thanks for the info. I just looked into it and found out that hops is a legally mandated ingredient in beer sold in the U.S. and several other countries. Who knew??

 

[RPh_Guy]

Go for it, reminds me that I still have some bottles of some gruit sours which are now over a year old.

Have you intentionally made sour beer without gruit herbs, and if yes which did you prefer?

 

[charliethebum]

They don't have to be tard. Use heavily hopped wort to make sure that no bacteria can grow there. Bacteria are usually the ones that produce the most acid, although some yeasts also can do that. By making sure that bacteria won't survive you increase your chances for non sour brews.

Now that's an interesting idea. So if I were to brew up a session ipa come spring time, pull off a quart or so pre pitch, and let it sit under/ near my honeysuckle bush uncovered, there's a good chance of collecting some clean wild yeast?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I posted some tips here for collecting wild yeast
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/collecting-wild-yeast-would-this-work.656078/

Mainly this:

Use starter wort (~1.040), not sugar water. 100g of DME per liter. Yeast nutrient is good too.
Simple sugar is not good for beer starters because the yeast's metabolism gets screwed up.
Consider pre-acidification to 4.0-4.5, to inhibit some of the bacteria.

Cover the jar with cheesecloth to keep out insects.
Creatures like sugary wort, so make sure animals can't get to it.

4-12 hours of fresh air is plenty. It's better if it's on the cold side since there will be less bacteria in the air.
You can also use bits of plant matter and skip leaving it outside.
Brett has trouble floating around, so I'd use some plants if you want Brett in the mix.

Washing yeast is not necessary, and will probably lose some biodiversity, depending on what you want.

Let it ferment for 2-4 weeks, covered loosely or airlocked. Make sure there's no mold (not to be confused with pellicle). Smell and taste. Check attenuation. Step up the culture before pitching.

You can do this with multiple jars to increase the likelihood of getting some great yeast.

 

[HerbivorousBrewer]

I posted some tips here for collecting wild yeast
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/collecting-wild-yeast-would-this-work.656078/
Mainly this:

Thanks for the tips RPh_Guy!

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes, not all wild yeasts are sour, but some of them are. Putting the jar under a tree usually collects several types of micro-organisms. If you are lucky, there may be some nice strains, but most likely it is a mixture of more and less suitable types of yeast and bacteria (some of which may divide in the presence of hops as well e.g. certain Lactobacillus species & most gram-negative bacteria). To get a real nice beer with wild strain, it needs to have a certain attenuation & off flavor profile. Many wild yeasts tend to ferment more complex sugars than traditional brewing strains, leading to slow fermentations that end up thin and dry. Some strains may not tolerate alcohol that well and may end up very high. Some yeasts (Candida etc.) may produce acids making it sour much as lactic acid bacteria. And some micro-organisms produce too much diacetyl or phenols/fusels. So yes, there is a chance that the beer turns out great (and you should definitely try it), but don't be surprised if the jar won't collect nice and clean wild yeast at the first time. A good way to find a suitable strain (the needle in a haystack) would be to use either hopped wort agar plates or later plate some wort from the jar and then analyze the characteristics of individual colonies (species / strains) that appear on the plate. I mean, for beer taste, attenuation etc. If you are lucky to own a microscope, you can differentiate between certain type of microbes etc.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

You'll have to let me know how it is after aging over a year! Cheers! And thanks for the info. I just looked into it and found out that hops is a legally mandated ingredient in beer sold in the U.S. and several other countries. Who knew??

Really!? That’s weird. Doesn’t surprise me though in our “free” nation...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Really!? That’s weird. Doesn’t surprise me though in our “free” nation...

This is a myth I've heard before. A quick search reveals a ruling that the TTB does NOT require hops in "beer". I'm not sure whether state or local laws may vary.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

@ESBrewer is totally right on all points ... Except keep in mind that Brettanomyces tends to often "fix" a lot of the off-flavors produced by the other microbes over time. So even when all the individual microbes aren't suitable to make a good beer on their own when isolated, the resulting beer from mixed fermentation can still be great when a good Brett strain is in the mix.
For example you should generally not use Pedio in a beer without also using Brett because Pedio typically produces diacetyl and EPS that are both very problematic unless metabolized by Brett.

Being sour, dry, and funky are the hallmarks of traditional Lambic, which is brewed with the help of wild microbes collected from the air. Of course the brewery's house cultures of Brett and Pedio play a large role in improving quality.

yeast and bacteria (some of which may divide in the presence of hops

In case this confused anyone, divide = reproduce

Cheers