Why oh why is my beer sickly sweet???

[jsweet]

I posted about this a couple weeks back, and still no change, and I still have no idea what caused this. I threw together a fairly unremarkable APA recipe from leftovers I had laying around. I had a weird-looking fermentation and had a difficult time getting the yeast (US-05) to clear -- but I didn't think that much of it, because a) no fermentation is like any other, and b) I've heard of people having trouble getting US-05 to clear, and even though that had not been my experience up until now, I figured it wasn't unexpected.

When I tasted the hydrometer samples, they were good but occasionally something seemed a bit off. I alternately recorded it as a sweet or a citrus taste in my notes.

After bottle-conditioning, it tastes sickly sweet -- basically undrinkable, and let me tell you, my criteria for "undrinkable" is a lot more stringent it seems than some other forum members here (my 2nd batch I fermented way too hot and had runaway phenol production, and then sanitized the bottles with C-Brite and didn't rinse all of them well enough so some of the bottles even had a Band Aid-like chlorophenol taste... and I drank all of 'em eventually). It's been in the bottles like 4 or 5 weeks now, and it's not improving. There's a LOT of sediment in the bottles, but even if I pour it clear, it's got that nasty sickly sweet taste.

An infection would both explain the undrinkability as well as the weird fermentation, but I didn't know any type of infection could make it sweet tasting.... maybe some kind of weird wild yeast? I dunno...

Yooper suggested that fermenting US-05 down around 60F, as I did, can create apricot flavors, but this is not subtle. Like I say, it's basically undrinkable -- and that's a mouthful coming from me. In any case, most of the rest of my beers have used US-05 fermented in the same conditions, and I've never tasted anything remotely like this flavor.

Any thoughts? It's really hard to accept this batch is ruined and I don't have any idea what's wrong with it...

 

[KayaBrew]

You didn't mention your SG readings. What were they?

 

[jsweet]

Sorry, they were in the other thread and they are unremarkable so I didn't post them. Here they are: OG 1.060, FG 1.014. I brew extract so an FG in the mid-teens is not atypical for me, even with an average starting gravity. (I even had one average grav IPA finish at 1.020, and it's my favorite out of any of my first 10 batches)

 

[unionrdr]

Sounds like it might be too many non-fermentable sugars. did you use any maltodextrine? How much DME/LME did you use?

 

[cfonnes]

From 1.060 to 1.014 and it is "sweet". Did you forget to add hops?

 

[wonderbread23]

I bet you're tasting diacetyl Is it butterscotchy? I get a big impression of sweetness from diacetyl.

 

[cheezydemon3]

From the recipe, I'd have said to ADD some crystal.

Definitely a process problem.

 

[LKABrewer]

From 1.060 to 1.014 and it is "sweet". Did you forget to add hops?

+1. At 1.014 if it tastes too sweet I would go in your brewroom and see if there is a bag of hops that you forgot to add.

 

[mrduna01]

+1. At 1.014 if it tastes too sweet I would go in your brewroom and see if there is a bag of hops that you forgot to add.

+1 again.

 

[jsweet]

Thanks for all the suggestions, but except for the diacetyl, my answer in every case is, "Nope, thought of that."

The hops were leftover from two previous batches, and as such they were in opened bags, tucked inside quart freezer bags, in the kitchen freezer. When I first tasted it and it was so sweet, that's the first thing I checked, was if those bags were still in there. Nope. It doesn't taste like malt sweetness anyway, it's something "else."

Now remind me again what causes excessive diacetyl?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for all the suggestions, but except for the diacetyl, my answer in every case is, "Nope, thought of that."

The hops were leftover from two previous batches, and as such they were in opened bags, tucked inside quart freezer bags, in the kitchen freezer. When I first tasted it and it was so sweet, that's the first thing I checked, was if those bags were still in there. Nope. It doesn't taste like malt sweetness anyway, it's something "else."

Now remind me again what causes excessive diacetyl?

Diacetyl is actually "oily" so if you don't have a slickness on the tongue, you don't have diacetyl. It's only buttery/butterscotch in large quantities, but still not sweet. It's more of a slick/oily mouthfeel and butter taste without sweetness.

My bet is on underhopping, if you've got a FG of 1.014 and the beer tastes sweet.

 

[jsweet]

I am 95+% sure I didn't underhop it first because, as I said, I no longer have any opened-and-resealed bags of hops in my freezer, and second because I pretty clearly remember measuring out the hops. I can't say 100% sure, because I can't rule out that in some sort of zombified trance I picked up the pre-measured hops and dumped them in the trash instead of the boil kettle, or that both the resealed bags and the measuring were false memories... But that seems highly unlikely.

I suppose there could have been some sort of problem with the hops... Looking back over the recipe and my notes, I see the bulk of the bitterness should have come from 1/2 oz of Amarillo hops labelled as 10.4% AA (and the other beer I used those in came out <i>awesome</i>, and the vendor was AHS, so I'm inclined to believe that number) and it had been resealed in a qt freezer bag for about 2 weeks after being initially opened, in the freezer the whole time. Say I didn't quite get the bag sealed; is 2 weeks in the freezer unsealed enough time to lose all their bitterness? Seems unlikely, but that's all I can think of at this point...

This may remain a mystery

 

[ArcaneXor]

I recently brewed my first extract batch in about two years, a Belgian Blonde that went from 1.060 to 1.013. While it tastes good, my first impression was that it tasted sweeter than the final gravity indicates.

In any case, the beer could have likely been fixed if it wasn't already bottled. I first would have fined the beer to get it to clear. While many types of hazes/cloudiness don't have a flavor, some of them do and can make the beer taste "off". I would have started with Isinglass (which is more potent than gelatin). If that didn't clear it up, I would have moved on to Superkleer.

Next, I would have added amylase, which can sometimes knock down the FG a couple of points (basically, this is like doing a super-slow mash at ambient temperature to convert any remnant starches that may be in the beer). Other choices: Drying the beer out with simple sugars, adding either a lager or champagne yeast, adding Brettanomyces, or using an enzyme like White Labs Ultra-Ferm. Dry hopping the beer again would also have made a difference. While dry hopping doesn't produce isomerized alpha acids (i.e. IBUs), it does add a little bit of perceived bitterness from the beta acids and tannins.

 

[BKmyWAY]

It might not be a problem with the hops themselves. Instead it might have been an issue with your extraction of the bittering if you had a weak boil. Also, did you measure your 0.5oz either on your first batch or second? I tend to over dump 0.5oz leaving less hops than I think in the bag if I don't weigh it.

 

[ArcaneXor]

It might not be a problem with the hops themselves. Instead it might have been an issue with your extraction of the bittering if you had a weak boil. Also, did you measure your 0.5oz either on your first batch or second? I tend to over dump 0.5oz leaving less hops than I think in the bag if I don't weigh it.

You still extract and isomerize alpha acids if you don't have a vigorous boil, it just happens a little bit more slowly due to less agitation. In fact, some people have made bitter beers without any boiling additions whatsoever (i.e. with hot whirlpool and hopback additions).

 

[Yooper]

.5 ounce of 10.4 AAU hops isn't much in bittering for a 1.060 beer. What was the whole recipe? Maybe the recipe didn't provide enough IBUs to balance a 1.060 beer.

 

[jsweet]

Just talked about the weak boil with somebody else ajf on the old thread regarding this. That was a good thought, but it seems unlikely, since my notes indicate I had about a gallon of boil-off over the course of 60 minutes, which is typical for me.

Measured it both times on a digital scale -- I think. I definitely measured it on the first batch. It's conceivable I didn't measure it the second time, though that would be atypical for me. The only time I don't measure hops on a scale is when I am adding a whole packet, then I figure I'll just trust the vendor. I suppose it's possible the second time I said, "Well I already know this is a half ounce, that's all that's left," but I doubt it.

Oh, it's coming back to me a bit now, I did have a few grams less Amarillo left than I thought, but I made sure to short-change the flavor/aroma hops, <i>not</i> the bittering hops.

It really tastes like something "else" is in there, not just a lack of hops. After it's sat out for a while, it's not as bad, does that give a clue at all?

This was one of the first times -- maybe the first time -- that I used a Vinator to sanitize the bottles, if I wasn't shaking out the StarSan well enough, could it taste like this? It's possible "sweet" is not the right word, not every time I taste it do I think "sweet", but that's my predominate impression, and when I had my wife try it she said, "It's really sweet" (I had told her I thought it tasted wrong, but I didn't say in what way)

I should probably have more people taste it, but I'm a little embarrassed.

 

[Yooper]

Just talked about the weak boil with somebody else ajf on the old thread regarding this. That was a good thought, but it seems unlikely, since my notes indicate I had about a gallon of boil-off over the course of 60 minutes, which is typical for me.

Measured it both times on a digital scale -- I think. I definitely measured it on the first batch. It's conceivable I didn't measure it the second time, though that would be atypical for me. The only time I don't measure hops on a scale is when I am adding a whole packet, then I figure I'll just trust the vendor. I suppose it's possible the second time I said, "Well I already know this is a half ounce, that's all that's left," but I doubt it.

Oh, it's coming back to me a bit now, I did have a few grams less Amarillo left than I thought, but I made sure to short-change the flavor/aroma hops, <i>not</i> the bittering hops.

It really tastes like something "else" is in there, not just a lack of hops. After it's sat out for a while, it's not as bad, does that give a clue at all?

This was one of the first times -- maybe the first time -- that I used a Vinator to sanitize the bottles, if I wasn't shaking out the StarSan well enough, could it taste like this? It's possible "sweet" is not the right word, not every time I taste it do I think "sweet", but that's my predominate impression, and when I had my wife try it she said, "It's really sweet" (I had told her I thought it tasted wrong, but I didn't say in what way)

I should probably have more people taste it, but I'm a little embarrassed.

I just discovered that you have two threads on this same subject and see the recipe and that it is a 3 gallon batch. I don't have any brewing software in front of me, but it looks like .5 ounce of 10.4 AAUs should be sufficient. The only other thing I can think of is that you, like me, don't care for crystal in your IPA, particularly that much.

 

[jsweet]

I first would have fined the beer to get it to clear. While many types of hazes/cloudiness don't have a flavor, some of them do and can make the beer taste "off".

This is one of the (unintentionally) hazier beers I have made, and as I mentioned, there's a LOT of sediment in the bottle.

Any idea what could have caused that, if it is indeed the case? Given the limitations of my process, only a couple of my beers have been really super clear, but mostly I am satisfied with it, and haven't really gotten off flavors from it, it's just a cosmetic thing. (FWIW I think it's a combination between using extract, lack of ability to cold crash -- though I did cold crash this one in an attempt to clear it -- and one aspect of my process I am still fine-tuning is trying not to get so much damn break material in the fermenter)

 

[jsweet]

I just discovered that you have two threads on this same subject and see the recipe and that it is a 3 gallon batch. I don't have any brewing software in front of me, but it looks like .5 ounce of 10.4 AAUs should be sufficient. The only other thing I can think of is that you, like me, don't care for crystal in your IPA, particularly that much.

Yeah, the other thread was more just vetting the recipe, but all concurred that the recipe looked reasonable (and I've plugged it into BeerSmith and says it's fine too). I wanted to give it another couple weeks conditioning befoire I asked about it again -- still no change.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Any idea what could have caused that, if it is indeed the case?

There are lots of different types of hazes. They can be from wort proteins (hot break, cold break), polyphenols, tannins, hop oils, yeast, etc, or a combination of any of these. Whirlfloc in the boil helps with settling out break material, isinglass takes care of some of the more common hazes (especially yeast), and Superkleer of most of them). Finings usually don't impact the flavor of the beer adversely, although they can reduce head-positive proteins, i.e. you may get a little less head retention.

White Labs Clarity-Ferm is another product worth trying - it targets a specific type of chill haze protein (a type of barley gluten, essentially) and breaks it down (it's an enzyme). It's added to the cooled wort prior to fermenting. I don't usually use it because it is so specific, but if you can't cold crash your beer and keep it cold for a couple of weeks, I'd recommend giving it a shot.

 

[jsweet]

I started trying Irish Moss with my last few beers (not this one, though). Finings have sort of been low on my list of process tweaks because I figure the effect is apt to be subtle, and I don't actually care that much if my beer is cloudy (if it doesn't affect the taste, that is). My wife actually prefers the look (and taste, if it's from yeast) of a cloudier beer, go figure. The couple of batches I've had come out crystal clear, I hold it up to show her and she just kinda shrugs, hahahaha...

I'll read over your suggestions again and think more about finings.