Why is my beer always soapy?

[Wischylini]

I just took a sip of my fourth finished BIAB beer, and once again it ended up tasting very soapy.

I've brewed a pale ale, two brown ales, and lastly one porter-esque beer.
Now, the one thing they all have in common is that they don't taste very "beery", and taste soapy, with a clove aroma. The dark malts I used in my dark ale were barely noticeable, and there wasn't much to distinguish it tastewise from the pale ale I made, even though my pale ale had a very different grist.


The recipe I used for my last beer:

45% Dark Munich
31% Pale Ale
9% Rye (malt, not flaked)
7.5% Special B
7.5% Black malt

The IBU I aimed for, using Brewersfriend's recipe calculator, was 40, and I used Summit and Perle, at a 2:1 ratio (mostly Summit).

My yeast of choice for this one, was Mangrove Jack's M03 Dark Ale, but I've also used S-33, with the exact same taste and aroma profile.

This particular beer had been bottle conditioned for two weeks, then sat in the fridge for a week before I tasted it. It's well carbonated and had a nice head.

• I've mashed all my beers at 64C/147.2F (Yes, I know this is very low for a porter, but I like my beer dry)
• Water/grain ratio of ~2L/kg / ~1.25qt/lb
• I've checked for complete conversion using iodine and a glass (All four times, I've had complete conversion within an hour)
• I mash out at 73C/163.4F
• All my beers were fermented at 19C/66.2F
• FG stopped at ~6P/1.024 after two weeks, which was slightly above the expected 5P/1.02, but no one seems to hit their expected FG when using the yeast I used.
• Primed with table sugar dissolved in boiling water
• I make sure that carboys and bottles are cleaned properly, before I sterilize them with Starsan (diluted according to the instructions on the label)
• I make 2 gallon batches
• I do manage to cool the wort fairly fast (~30 minutes)
• I haven't noticed signs of infection
• Nor have I noticed any signs of the soapy taste fading, even after months have passed

So, can anyone spot anything I might be doing wrong? (Please ask if there's anything relevant I've forgotten to mention)

 

[DanVSTL]

That mash temp is low for browns and porters even if you like a dry beer. Don't know what your OG was but 1.024 seems a high FG.

 

[Wischylini]

Yup, I know it's very low, but as mentioned I like my beer dry, and I've had some great low-temp mashed porters and stouts, even if it's not entirely true to the style.

This particular beer had an OG of 19.1P/1.079.

 

[WayFrae]

Did you wash your BIAB bag with soap and not rinse it enough? If it is only your BIAB beers that are soapy tasting it seems to me that it would have something to do with your bag.

 

[DanVSTL]

You get a soapy taste if you primary to long. Dont know how long you primary.

 

[Wischylini]

My brewing bag has never been in contact with soap. I've turned it inside-out to keep grains from getting caught in the seams, and after every session I clean it by rinsing it thoroughly before boiling it in clean water.

None of my beers have been in primary for more than two weeks.

 

[Clarke]

"Soapy
Soapy flavors can caused by not washing your glass very well, but they can also be produced by the fermentation conditions. If you leave the beer in the primary fermentor for a relatively long period of time after primary fermentation is over ("long" depends on the style and other fermentation factors), soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub. Soap is, by definition, the salt of a fatty acid; so you are literally tasting soap."

Now I leave my beer in the primary for 3 weeks, so I don't know what = too long but FWIW...

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

 

[opiate82]

[*]I make sure that carboys and bottles are cleaned properly, before I sterilize them with Starsan (diluted according to the instructions on the label)

Going to nitpick a bit here, but there is a difference between sanitized and sterilized, and what you did was sanitized your equipment.

As far as soapy flavors, here is what John Palmer has to say:

Soapy flavors can caused by not washing your glass very well, but they can also be produced by the fermentation conditions. If you leave the beer in the primary fermentor for a relatively long period of time after primary fermentation is over ("long" depends on the style and other fermentation factors), soapy flavors can result from the breakdown of fatty acids in the trub. Soap is, by definition, the salt of a fatty acid; so you are literally tasting soap.

Also related to your "clove" descriptor:

Medicinal: These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors.

 

[lowtones84]

What kind of water do you use?

 

[poptarts]

you say your beer fermented at 66 is that ambient temp or beer temp? If that is ambient that is pretty high and can cause off flavors. you might want to look at your water, if it has chloramien you will need to add campten because that can have a plastic cardboard flavor to your beer as well. Maybe try a batch with store RO water and see if it goes away.

 

[Wischylini]

I live in Norway, where there's practically no chlorine in the water, so I don't think that's it either. I get my water from the same source as Nøgne Ø.

The 66F is ambient temperature, which might be a little high, but my beer doesn't seem to have that typical fusel flavour.

 

[poptarts]

I would be willing to bet Nøgne does stuff to their water. You should toss in some campten at the very least next brew. And that temp is high, it will cause off flavors.

 

[Wischylini]

Yes, they probably do, but they are generally tight-lipped regarding whether they treat their water or not, even if they do share some of their recipes.

I do have some campden tablets from a previous winemaking project, so I will give them a try during my next session. At what point in the brewing process should I use them? Pre-mash?

 

[moce]

Are you cheking your mash pH? A final beer pH above 4.4 in ales may lead to soapy flavor. Maybe you have too much residual alkalinity.

 

[Wischylini]

Ouch, that might have been it. I hadn't thought of that before. I just checked my pale ale, which was at 4.5pH, and my dark ale was at 5.5.

I really appreciate the feedback and helpful advice, you guys.

 

[Yooper]

Ouch, that might have been it. I hadn't thought of that before. I just checked my pale ale, which was at 4.5pH, and my dark ale was at 5.5.

I really appreciate the feedback and helpful advice, you guys.

It definitely sounds like a water issue to me, or a yeast health issue could be responsible.

Do you check mash pH? You want a mash pH (room temperature sample) of 5.3-5.5.

for your yeast, do you use dry or liquid? Do you do anything special to ensure the proper amount of yeast is pitched?

I'm thinking that yeast health is generally responsible for "soapy flavors" as the breakdown of yeast = soap, but if your yeast is healthy and properly cared for, then it has got to be the water.

 

[Wischylini]

At room temperature, my tap water is almost a perfect 7, but I haven't checked the mash pH – I definitely will from now on, though.

I've only used dry yeast as of now, and according to Brewersfriend's pitching calculator, I overpitch, if anything. I also aerate my wort by shaking vigourously for ~10 minutes.

My pale ale (4.5-ish pH) also tastes off, even though it hit the expected FG, using S-33.
(OG 1.057 - FG 1.014)

- I cracked open a few more of the dark ales, and they're consistently at 5.5pH, which seems absurdly high, considering that the pale ale was at 4.5, while the dark malts should lower the pH.

 

[Yooper]

At room temperature, my tap water is almost a perfect 7, but I haven't checked the mash pH – I definitely will from now on, though.

I've only used dry yeast as of now, and according to Brewersfriend's pitching calculator, I overpitch, if anything. I also aerate my wort by shaking vigourously for ~10 minutes.

My pale ale (4.5-ish pH) also tastes off, even though it hit the expected FG, using S-33.
(OG 1.057 - FG 1.014)

- I cracked open a few more of the dark ales, and they're consistently at 5.5pH, which seems absurdly high, considering that the pale ale was at 4.5, while the dark malts should lower the pH.

Post fermentation pH is useless when tracking down off flavors (and suspect as well with a 5.5 reading) so make sure that it's mash pH that you target and not post fermentation pH. I assume you're checking with a calbrated pH meter, and not strips, of course.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes, they probably do, but they are generally tight-lipped regarding whether they treat their water or not, even if they do share some of their recipes.

I do have some campden tablets from a previous winemaking project, so I will give them a try during my next session. At what point in the brewing process should I use them? Pre-mash?

You only need 1/4 campden tablet per 5 gallons of water to treat for chlorine and chloramines. Dissolve, stir it well, and let it sit for a few minutes, done!

All your brewing water should be treated as such, mash, sparge, steep, top-up, etc. I even use treated water for starters.

Your water's alkalinity maybe higher than you think, keeping the pH too high. Anyway you could check that? Some swimming pool or spa chems let you check alkalinity with drops and a color indicator that turns from green to red. Each drop added represents for example 10ppm. If you need 6 drops to turn the color that puts it around 60 ppm, which is OK for brewing, but you may need to add a little acid. Bru'n Water is a great tool and site.

 

[rmyurick]

I doubt if the water has zero chlorine (or chloramine), if it's from a public water supply. So, if you have chlorine added, I would pre-boil water, if it's chloramines, you will have to use a Campden tablet, as others have mentioned. You could probably find out from your public water utility.

I agree with earlier suggestion that the mash temp. is low--I would try 152F for an hour. You also have a lot of munich malt--doesn't have much enzymes in it--I would try more pale malt in the recipe (>50%). Also, not sure about that hop combination. Sometimes old-ish hops can have kind of a soapy flavor, especially if you are adding them late, like for aroma. If you are giving them a full boil that tends to dissipate.

Have you tried brewing a more standard recipe, like a porter from Terry Foster's book or something out of Papazian?

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

from my site

http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/other-issues.shtml

1) Soapy flavors: This will remind the taster of a bar of Ivory soap. It comes from left over fatty acids in the cold break trub, that wind up in the fermenter. Combine this with a warm fermentation, and ugh!
Solution: a quick cooling after a whirlpool to allow all things to settle to the bottom. Trub, hops, and proteins will settle out if left undisturbed during the cooling process, then utilizing a siphon to remove the chilled wort from the brew kettle will leave all the sediment behind. See the Siphon Starter on the Brewing-Beginner Tips page. I find it is simple and easy to use and have been using it for years now.

 

[bernardsmith]

I believe that when yeast cells break down (autolysis ) the result can be soapy flavors. Autolytic flavors occur more often with some yeasts rather than others but I think they occur always if you allow the beer or wine to stand on the trub or lees too long.

 

[hlm123]

This is a little simplistic considering the discussion going on here, but is there any point in your process where you weren't rinsing off the equipment enough after cleaning? I had this same problem with my first 2 BIAB batches. I used a vessel that was being used to hold Oxi Clean solution and just didn't rinse it out well enough before using it for mashing in a bag. Ended up with soapy flavors which I linked to the poor rinsing.

 

[opiate82]

As far as trub causing the off flavor, I disagree and think this thread (and corresponding blog post) is worth checking out. Maybe in combination with warm fermentation temperatures could cause it, but warm fermentation temps will also cause other off flavors.

 

[The_Bishop]

I use a plate chiller, so *all* of my cold break ends up in the fermenter. No off flavor issues at all.

 

[hunter_le five]

As far as trub causing the off flavor, I disagree and think this thread (and corresponding blog post) is worth checking out.

+1 I don't buy that it's from trub or cold break not being separated from wort prior to fermentation.

I've dumped all the trub/break material into the fermenter, and left the beer on the lees for an extended period of time following fermentation, many times with zero soapy flavors. I know many other HBT users have as well.



Sent from my iPad using Home Brew

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

We can agree to disagree about trub, but he also mentions clove, which is a sign of either too much lag time with the yeast or wild yeast contamination.

Why is it everyone around here is more concerned with saving time and cutting corners than doing things the right way?

 

[Yooper]

Why is it everyone around here is more concerned with saving time and cutting corners than doing things the right way?

Because maybe there is some disagreement among brewers about what is "the right way"? Perhaps there is reason to believe the things we do, which may not be in accordance with your system and your experiences?

 

[rmyurick]

Some other thoughts: 1.that's a lot of rye-will give you a bitter bite 2. S-33 is kind of a Belgian strain-some clove flavor would be expected

 

[boydster]

S-33 is an English strain (EDME). I've gotten some fruitiness from it, but I haven't gotten clove or soapy flavors.

I also transfer all my break material into my fermenter, and haven't experienced soapy flavors from it.

My first thought would be that there is some soap residue getting into the beer. The mash tun, brew kettle, and fermenter would all be potential entry points. My next guess would be that the yeast isn't healthy for some reason and throwing the clove and soap flavors. Maybe give your equipment an extra, very thorough hot water rinse on your next batch, treat your water with campden, and get some lactic acid to adjust your mash pH.

 

[opiate82]

We can agree to disagree about trub, but he also mentions clove, which is a sign of either too much lag time with the yeast or wild yeast contamination.

Why is it everyone around here is more concerned with saving time and cutting corners than doing things the right way?

Read this article: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Listen to this Basic Brewing podcast: http://tinyurl.com/m7ynyo4

Come back and tell me more about the "right way" to deal with trub.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

Read this article: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Listen to this Basic Brewing podcast: http://tinyurl.com/m7ynyo4

Come back and tell me more about the "right way" to deal with trub.

Its all fine and dandy for brewers making hopped up brews and stronger beers, but I bet you my life savings that my pils is cleaner than yours.

FWIW I make ales that the best experts are impressed with after 5 days in the bottle (19 days after brew day), even strong (7+%) brews. And every pro brewer removes trub for a reason, and try reading the Papazian books. Maybe you can't taste the off flavors yourself, but I taste enough homebrews with something wrong with them from people cutting corners to drive me nuts.

 

[hunter_le five]

Its all fine and dandy for brewers making hopped up brews and stronger beers, but I bet you my life savings that my pils is cleaner than yours.

All right, let's whip 'em out, someone get the measuring tape.

FWIW I make ales that the best experts are impressed with after 5 days in the bottle (19 days after brew day), even strong (7+%) brews.

Good for you.

And every pro brewer removes trub for a reason

Not everything pro brewers do applies to home brewing. If I were brewing 15bbl batches, yeah, I'd be a bit more concerned with leaving that much beer on top of the trub, due to the amount of pressure exerted on whatever's on the bottom of the tank. But with 5 gallon batches, it's just not an issue. Or at least that's the conclusion I've come to based on my reading and my experiences. YMMV.

Maybe you can't taste the off flavors yourself, but I taste enough homebrews with something wrong with them from people cutting corners to drive me nuts.

Agreed some corners shouldn't be cut. But I'm pretty sure this isn't one of those. You're welcome to disagree, but there's no need to turn this into a pissing match. Cheers.

 

[boydster]

Its all fine and dandy for brewers making hopped up brews and stronger beers, but I bet you my life savings that my pils is cleaner than yours.

The OP's beer has SOAP in it. Beat that for clean

Are you seriously implying that your process and the beer you produce is better than Yooper's, who admittedly pours her break material into the fermenter? That would be a bold claim, to say the least. For your sake, I hope she doesn't take you up on that bet.

 

[Yooper]

The OP's beer has SOAP in it. Beat that for clean

Are you seriously implying that your process and the beer you produce is better than Yooper's, who admittedly pours her break material into the fermenter? That would be a bold claim, to say the least. For your sake, I hope she doesn't take you up on that bet.

He may (or may not) be right. Remember that he makes more German style lagers than I do, and perhaps in those cases, the ultra "clean" flavor would be much better than my lagers.

I do try to minimize trub in my light lagers, although I don't go to extraneous measures and with my CFC, most or all of the cold break does wind up in the fermenter.

I would have to guess that some styles are more forgiving as to "character" in the flavor than others. Also, I'm in the "shorter primary" camp than some. Some keep their beers in the fermenter for 3-4 weeks, and I generally go about 10-14 days. That probably has a large flavor impact as well. Perhaps I wouldn't like the results of all of the break material + an ultra long primary due to extra flavor contribution.

At this point, I definitely prefer less time on the yeast cake (trub) in the fermenter while others prefer a longer amount of time. I think in a Basic Brewing Radio experiment, the results were evenly divided among brewers as to preference. So it's entirely possibly that the combination that I prefer- not trying to get rid of break material and a shorter time in the fermenter than some people- gives me the flavors that I like better.

Someone else's preferences and experiences could be very different, of course.