My starters usually take 3 days. A lot can change in 3 days.
KNow what'd be even better than if they made a starter for my lazy ass? If I could just go there and use their equipment and they clean up the mess.
Why don't yeast companies just sell liquid yeast packages with higher cell counts?
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My starters usually take 3 days. A lot can change in 3 days.
KNow what'd be even better than if they made a starter for my lazy ass? If I could just go there and use their equipment and they clean up the mess.
dyqik
Well-Known Member
I believe some shops do do the grain selection and crushing for you - I've seen other users reference that. The problem being that sometimes shops make mistakes, and you won't discover that easily (bad if it ruins a batch, even worse if a mistake leads to your best ever beer and you can't recreate it!).
As for making starters - if the LHBS pitches the yeast for the starter, then it runs the risk of needing a liquor license to sell the starter to you (depending on state, etc.), since a starter is technically beer. If it doesn't, then infection would be a problem (as would liability for infection).
Darwin18
Well-Known Member
If your schedule is that variable then you should stick with dry yeast.
That's called brew on premises.
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
Jamil Z says, "go the extra mile to pitch a healthy number of viable yeast."
Gordon Strong says, "I use one smack pack per batch, including lagers, and rarely use a starter."
Chris White says, "you should probably use a starter with liquid strains."
Dave Logsdon says, "you should direct pitch one activator pack, it's plenty."
(To sum it up, anyway.)
I just don't know what to believe anymore. /cries
I'd err on the side of caution and go with the starters.
Thanks , I've used mostly dry yeast this year. I got a starter going atm as well if it makes you feel any better. Unfortunate that my dme stockpile is starting to solidify.
dobes
Well-Known Member
I don't think I would want my homebrew shop to make a starter for me. If I end up with an off batch that would be the first place I would think was the issue. I like to have as much control over my brew process as possible and any issues are my fault.
The few times were an unscheduled brew day becomes possible I just use dry yeast. I always try and keep the ingredients around just in case I can do a brew last minute. But any time I use liquid yeast I make a starter.
The few times were an unscheduled brew day becomes possible I just use dry yeast. I always try and keep the ingredients around just in case I can do a brew last minute. But any time I use liquid yeast I make a starter.
What's the difference if I pitch six fresh smackpacks or make a starter to a 12 gallon batch of ale??? I'll put my beer up against anyones.
About $50 at the price my LHBS charges for liquid yeast. $10 a tube can you believe it? Half of it is 3 months old...
Well... $7 per smackpack that's more like two to three weeks old (they don't seem to carry the 3 month old at my LHBS). So $42 plus tax... If I do a starter I would save about $35 for a twelve gallon batch... My time is worth more than that I travel, work late, etc... I'd rather focus on beer.
This is why I wash and re-use my yeast
This. Make one batch (with starter if necessary), and then you've got plenty of yeast to keep brewing with when it's done, with no starter required. I usually start with a session beer (again, low enough gravity with fresh enough yeast that I don't need a starter), and from that one smack pack or vial, I get 5 gallons of delicious easy quaffing beer, plus enough yeast for two more batches, one session beer, and one bigger beer. Then I'll repeat with the second session beer. And I'll go up to 5 generations that way.
See what I do above. Talk about cheap and fast. No starter, plus I'll usually get anywhere from 6-10 batches out of a single vial or smack pack.
This is why I wash and re-use my yeast
I think that's awesome and as time goes on I'll definitely work my way into that but for now, all things considered, I'd rather pay the extra money for more yeast, and work my way up to what you do.
That being said... I ordered a pressure cooker and some pint jars after reading this byo article... https://byo.com/stories/item/434-canning-yeast-starters
You got it good if you get $7/smack pack and can find 6 of the variety you want less than a month old at your LHBS. I was looking for WLP001 the other day at my guy and he had none. Ended up with 2 month old WLP008 for $10. No Wyeast, just WLP or dry.
Wow... Wyeast is $6.40 - 6.95 (depending if they remember to give me a discount) and if I point out that it's old they'll take another dollar off. I ran into a problem where they didn't have the Wyeast 2308 (Munich) and the Wyeast 2633 (Oktoberfest) so they just ordered it and had to put my brew off a week but this stuff was a week to two weeks old at most and that was it.... I guess I'm lucky. They have WLP too but I'm partial to the smackpacks so I can see viability since I'm not doing starters.
Mine is usually $6.99, and my LHBS stocks just about every Wyeast strain, and most of the White Labs strains too. I haven't picked through them all, but generally if I can't get what I want, it'll be in on the next truck. And it's usually 1-2 months old depending on the popularity of the strain. Less popular strains they only order a couple at a time and they may sit there a while. Oldest I got was WLP vial that was just before the best buy (4 months old IIRC their date system, I don't normally use WLP but needed that particular strain). If I'm lucky I'll get one thats 2-3 weeks, but 5-6 weeks I'd say is average.
I travel, work hard, have kids, and all the same -- and my income is sufficient that buying that much yeast wouldn't break the bank by any means. Still, $42 for yeast for a batch just seems outrageous. That's more than grains and hops and propane and ice for the chiller combined for almost all my batches, and I brew 10 gallon batches.
I generally use dry yeast when I can to save time and money... But when it comes time that I'm using a liquid strain, I just wait till the kids go to bed, fire up a quick starter, and get it done. It's not that hard.
Well... it depends on how you look at things... to me... the yeast is the single most important thing and if I don't have the time or timing to do it correctly then I shouldn't even attempt it because in the grand scheme of things I'm still brewing a beer for less than a dollar per 12 ounce bottle. I don't add in labor because it's a hobby. So... comparing that price to a 'craft' beer you can buy at the store... that's nothing.
Everyone has different priorities, some pay monthly dues to golf courses, some trade in their car every year, some pay $12 for a six pack, some overextend themselves in a mortgage. However, if someone CHOOSES to purchase enough yeast to make a 12 gallon batch vs make a starter I personally think it's a bit silly to tell them it's 'outrageous' or they're 'lazy' or they're 'underpitching'... Everyone has their own priorities. I just happen to have too many hobbies and creating yeast starters isn't one of them.
So anyway... I still don't see where you HAVE to make a starter in order to get the proper pitch especially if you use a smack pack where you can physically see the viability.
Just curious, did they have US-05? If so, why use WLP008 or even WLP001 instead of a dried version that has a higher cell count, is cheaper, and has a longer shelf life.
On a slightly related note:
I guess I don't understand why all my LHBSs stock way more WY1056 than any other liquid yeasts when there is a perfectly good dry version out there.
I know dry yeast used to have a bad wrap from the early days of homebrewing, but it's come a long way.
Hermit
fuddle
If you know your sources, then pretty good chance you get the viability you expect. I have no problem with that. However, even one pack my be more than you need for that. I think we need to think in terms of 'optimal' pitch rate. Frugal person that I am I would probably look at doing a starter with the thought of dividing it right off the bat. I prefer that to yeast washing.
I agree. However, I don't think that there's a black and white "optimal" that's right for everything and every one. "Optimal" is the right rate, combined with all the other factors, to achieve the results that you want.
"Never make a starter" and "always make a starter" are not acceptable answers to me, as they both demonstrate a failure to understand why we make starters in the first place. And if someone finds it better to pay extra money to simply by multiple packs, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If anything, they're probably pitching closer to the right rate than someone making a starter, unless you're pumping filtered air into your Erlemeyer while it's on a stir plate, and then confirming the count via hemocytometer (we all probably grow less on our starters than we think we do).
And yes, were I pitching 95-100 billion viable cells into a 5 gallons of 1.030 Tafelbier, I too would consider that over pitching. As I said early on, the rate I've found to give me the ester character I want out of beers like that would be in the 0.5 mil cells per ml per °P, or about 70 billion cells. Most of the yeast I get my my LHBS is usually 75% viable or so, so that's about where I want it to be. If it's fresher, I'll either make a starter and harvest, or even age the yeast a little bit. But I've found pitching at a higher rate suppresses esters more than my liking. Tafelbier being just one example. But that's the same process I use for all my English Bitters. Scottish Ales, while still low gravity, are much cleaner, so I'll usually make a small starter for even a 60 shilling.
So tying it all back to the OP, that's another reason why I wouldn't want a pack with a higher pitch of yeast. And as has already been suggested, offering multiple sizes would likely just increase cost independent of cell count.
Hooooowever, there's also the well established point that yeast are more forgiving of an overpitch than they are an underpitch, so when in doubt, lean towards pitching more, I suppose.
Sorry for the rant. Hah.
Let me second the jealousy then. I'd love to get yeast that's barely a week old...
Twinkeelfool
Well-Known Member
You can imagine how fresh it is here in Australia.
I am a big fan of US-05 and was already using a super fresh second generation pitch of that yeast in half the batch. My hope had been to compare WLP001 with a starter to a fresh repitch of US-05. I changed my experimental plan at the LHBS when it turned out he didn't have any WLP001 and went with 008. Not going to be that much of an experiment but I do like pitching different yeasts in my split batches to learn about yeast contributed flavors. In retrospect an interesting experiment might have been 2 packs of rehydrated US05 vs the cup of second generation US05 slurry.
therealtricky
Member
Good news: I get my yeast that fresh too.. Bad news: the LHBS who stocks fresh yeast usually has old grain or a limited selection (since they push extract recipes and kits so hard). So.. I have to end up going to 2 (or 3) LHBS to get the freshest combination of ingredients...
I know, I shouldn't complain. But that's what the internet if for, right?
TNGabe
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Anecdotaly, from my experience, old yeast is old yeast. Make a starter (or two) and it will obvisouly perform better than if you just pitch a year old smack pack, but you're still growing up stressed, mutated yeast. The only way to get back to a healthy state would be to isolate from a single healthy cell grown to a colony.
wobdee
Junior Member
Here's what I've been doing lately. I brew 2.5 gal batches mostly lagers and I use one smack pack of Wyeast 2124 into 3 gal of wort at 50 degrees. My lagers are usually done in 10 days then I cold crash for 3 then keg and lager.
After this batch i will reuse slurry for 5 generations before buying another smack pack.
So far so good, no starters, no off flavors, great beer.
Maybe a good idea for some brewers instead of using starters is to start off with a smaller 2.5 gal batch and a smack pack then use slurry for future larger batches?
After this batch i will reuse slurry for 5 generations before buying another smack pack.
So far so good, no starters, no off flavors, great beer.
Maybe a good idea for some brewers instead of using starters is to start off with a smaller 2.5 gal batch and a smack pack then use slurry for future larger batches?
For myself, I don't do starters, I simply buy and use the appropriate amount of yeast (liquid or dry) for the beer I'm making, why? Because I live in a house with roommates who won't necessarily appreciate my yeast starter being in the fridge. My carboy can sit in the downstairs where it's out of the way but fridge space is at a premium (space in general is at a premium, to be honest) and the last time I did a starter there was a bunch of grousing about not wanting something weird looking like that in the fridge. Rather than deal with grumbling roommates, I spend the extra $6.
This.
Yeast manufacturers can guarantee sanitary conditions of their product because it is produced and packaged in a carefully-controlled environment. Can your LHBS maintain sanitary conditions when making starters? Maybe, maybe not.
Too many variables and too many ways that can go wrong if we were to farm that out, despite all the best intentions. A lot of what makes this hobby rewarding is the ability to DIY those parts of the process. I actually enjoy making starters and wouldn't want to hand that over to someone else. There's something really cool about turning 60-70 billion critters into 400 billion.
Hey, more power to you. If you make good beer and you're happy with your process and cost, you're doing fine.
I'm just saying I would feel ridiculous doing the same. But that's why you're you and I'm me. Whatever floats your boat...
Well with all that said... I'm kind of excited now since I found a process that will work for me. I'm going to start canning wort in a pressure cooker in pint and quart jars and stick it in the pantry so any time I need a starter I can simply dump in an erlenmeyer flask or two using whatever size starter that is appropriate for the gravity, beer style, and batch size so I can get proper pitch rate. Cheers...
I'm canning wort for starters too, I don't have a stir plate yet, starter just gets made in half gallon or one gallon growler on kitchen counter with foil for a stopper. Shake/swirl when I walk past to knock out the CO2. Not yeast lab sanitary but seems to do the trick and I get reasonably short lag when I pitch.
Your original question is kind of interesting the more I think about it. I am wondering if it is really cell population that matters in determining fermentation performance. Is 4 packs as good for a home brew fermentation as a starter grown to same viable cell count? Maybe 4 packs is actually better due to lower level of contamination. On other hand maybe there really is something to waking up the yeast and getting a couple recent divisions when pitching.
Your original question is kind of interesting the more I think about it. I am wondering if it is really cell population that matters in determining fermentation performance. Is 4 packs as good for a home brew fermentation as a starter grown to same viable cell count? Maybe 4 packs is actually better due to lower level of contamination. On other hand maybe there really is something to waking up the yeast and getting a couple recent divisions when pitching.
Darwin18
Well-Known Member
Why are you fermenting your starters in the refrigerator? Temperature control isn't something you really need to worry about with starters, unless you're trying to drop the suspended yeast (cold crash) prior to pitching the starter but a lot of folks skip that step without issue (myself included).
I don't ferment them in the fridge, I store them in the fridge. If I'm going to do a starter, I need to do it the weekend before I brew when I have some spare time.
Based on my experience with a twelve gallon batch... Cell count is what matters... My lagers at 46*F with 8 smack packs start kicking off within twelve hours... Ales less than 1.057 with five to six smack packs do the same. I would focus more on cell count than anything else. Sure you could save money using slurry, making starters, or whatever... What's important is what works for you...
I buy one vial/smack pack and spend 30min making a 2-4L stir-plate starter depending on age/viabilility of the yeast and OG 2 days before brewing. This way, my yeast budget for a single beer doesn't exceed the cost of all the grains and hops put together. That works for me.
Bobcatbrewing42
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I quit the liquid yeast smack packs after the time that I couldn't get the little nutrient pack to break and the whole pack blew open and spilled half my yeast and left me wondering about contamination. Surprisingly, the ferment went OK.
I have found that you can't go wrong taking Ed Wort's advice. Per, Ed, I converted to dry yeasts and get twice the cell count for half the money, better long term storage....blah, blah. There may be times when you need a specialty yeast from Wyeast or White labs but using Saf 05, Saf 04 and Notty is working out very well. I have used Lager yeast and Champagne yeast for a blueberry mead and those were fine too...also dried yeast.
I have found that you can't go wrong taking Ed Wort's advice. Per, Ed, I converted to dry yeasts and get twice the cell count for half the money, better long term storage....blah, blah. There may be times when you need a specialty yeast from Wyeast or White labs but using Saf 05, Saf 04 and Notty is working out very well. I have used Lager yeast and Champagne yeast for a blueberry mead and those were fine too...also dried yeast.
