Why barley takes longer to sprout?

[BrewingWisdom]

I tried to make both wheat and barley malt and one thing I've noticed is that barley with husk takes far longer to sprout than wheat. I am done with my wheat malt but barley is still not sprouted.
Is barely inherently difficult to sprout as compared to wheat or it's the barley husk which is stopping the water to get inside the grain?

 

[RM-MN]

I suspect it is that the husk doesn't let the water reach the kernel inside for a while. Also, temperature may play a role. I can make wheat sprout when it is pretty cold but I believe barley likes it a little warmer.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

I suspect it is that the husk doesn't let the water reach the kernel inside for a while. Also, temperature may play a role. I can make wheat sprout when it is pretty cold but I believe barley likes it a little warmer.

Warm Temperature isn't a issue here. It's close to 40 degree centigrade here in april.

 

[lurker18]

What type of barley are you trying to sprout? 6 row barley is bread with a dormancy, so it needs to be pre chilled before the dormancy will break. If you did not break the dormancy and the barley has been sitting in water for more than a day, it is probably drowned and is now dead. Also, feed varieties are notoriously hard to get going.
However 2 row will sprout way faster than wheat at any temperature.
I think you either have a 6 row barley showing dormancy or are using feed. One way to test this is to do a peroxide germ, soak the kernels in a 3% peroxide/water solution. If it germs after that, you have dormancy and need to freeze the barley before it will ever sprout normally.

 

[RM-MN]

What type of barley are you trying to sprout? 6 row barley is bread with a dormancy, so it needs to be pre chilled before the dormancy will break. If you did not break the dormancy and the barley has been sitting in water for more than a day, it is probably drowned and is now dead. Also, feed varieties are notoriously hard to get going.
However 2 row will sprout way faster than wheat at any temperature.
I think you either have a 6 row barley showing dormancy or are using feed. One way to test this is to do a peroxide germ, soak the kernels in a 3% peroxide/water solution. If it germs after that, you have dormancy and need to freeze the barley before it will ever sprout normally.

Thanks for that infomation. Please note that the original poster is from Pakistan and may not have the same choices as we in the US have.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

What type of barley are you trying to sprout? 6 row barley is bread with a dormancy, so it needs to be pre chilled before the dormancy will break. If you did not break the dormancy and the barley has been sitting in water for more than a day, it is probably drowned and is now dead. Also, feed varieties are notoriously hard to get going.
However 2 row will sprout way faster than wheat at any temperature.
I think you either have a 6 row barley showing dormancy or are using feed. One way to test this is to do a peroxide germ, soak the kernels in a 3% peroxide/water solution. If it germs after that, you have dormancy and need to freeze the barley before it will ever sprout normally.

Thanks for that infomation. Please note that the original poster is from Pakistan and may not have the same choices as we in the US have.

In fact when I buy the barley grain , there is no way I can find out its a six or two row barley just by looking at the grain. Or it can be identified?

 

[lurker18]

You can tell by looking. In 6 row barley 1/3 of the creases in the kernel will be perfectly straight, 1/3 of the crease will curve slightly to the right towards the germ end and the other 1/*3 will curve slightly to the left towards the germ end.

I did not realize this question was coming from Pakistan, so I can not say 100% the varieties you are dealing with there, whether they are Pakistani bread varieties, or are imported from other barley growing countries, or if they are malt or feed varieties.

 

[lurker18]

Again, not sure what you have available there, but a fairly certain way to tell if it is feed is to look at the rachilla. This is a small little finger like growth located in the crease of the kernel coming from the germ end. Some kernels will not have theses as they easily break off in harvesting, so it takes a bit to find them. Generally malt varieties will have noticeable hairs growing on the rachilla, where feed varieties have very short hairs or just little nubs coming off them.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

You can tell by looking. In 6 row barley 1/3 of the creases in the kernel will be perfectly straight, 1/3 of the crease will curve slightly to the right towards the germ end and the other 1/*3 will curve slightly to the left towards the germ end.

I did not realize this question was coming from Pakistan, so I can not say 100% the varieties you are dealing with there, whether they are Pakistani bread varieties, or are imported from other barley growing countries, or if they are malt or feed varieties.

Well the one I grown is surely a Pakistani local one.
Let me send you a grain and then maybe you can identify.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Again, not sure what you have available there, but a fairly certain way to tell if it is feed is to look at the rachilla. This is a small little finger like growth located in the crease of the kernel coming from the germ end. Some kernels will not have theses as they easily break off in harvesting, so it takes a bit to find them. Generally malt varieties will have noticeable hairs growing on the rachilla, where feed varieties have very short hairs or just little nubs coming off them.

So in that image right one is feed barley and left one is malt barely?

 

[bracconiere]

i'll chime in with my 2 cents.

My feed store 6-row barley starts chitting a day, maybe two, after a 2-3 hours soak. no freezing.


when i've tried doing it with the classic internet logic of 8 hour soak or overnight, i get bacterial contamination. And that does f it up.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

i'll chime in with my 2 cents.

My feed store 6-row barley starts chitting a day, maybe two, after a 2-3 hours soak. no freezing.


when i've tried doing it with the classic internet logic of 8 hour soak or overnight, i get bacterial contamination. And that does f it up.

Well mine also sprouted but very few. Most are unsprouted that's my concern.

 

[bracconiere]

Well mine also sprouted but very few. Most are unsprouted that's my concern.

two questions then...

How does it smell?

And, are you making sure to turn it a couple times a day to make sure it can breath, and keeping it wet? but well drained, and have air to it?

 

[BrewingWisdom]

two questions then...

How does it smell?

And, are you making sure to turn it a couple times a day to make sure it can breath, and keeping it wet? but well drained, and have air to it?

It smells little alcohol maybe some yeast bacterial reaction going.
Turned it and wet it just two times a day. Did same with the wheat and it worked.

 

[bracconiere]

It smells little alcohol maybe some yeast bacterial reaction going.

that's a problem then. how long was your initial soak for?

and i'd reccomend only quickly covering with water once a day after the initial soak, and drain it quickly. otherwise you're going to drown it, and cause bacteria to grow

i'd don't malt much wheat, so i can't chime in on that.

edit: the reason i don't malt wheat, is they treat feed wheat with a fungicide here. maybe they do there too? and that's why it worked? not sure though.

 

[lurker18]

They also spray feed barley with fungicide, so you can't say that about one and not the other. Also, your barley may have had a preharvest desiccant application that can kill the germ.

Another thing that can really kill the germ is if the grain was artificially dried after harvest. It is very common to harvest barley, especially malt barley, on the higher than dry side to limit the amount of mechanical damage that is done during harvesting, and later dry the barley to a suitable storage moisture. If this is done too hot, or trying to bring out too much moisture, the germ will definitely be hurt.

As for the barley not needing freezing after you have purchased it, it may have already gone through the dormancy break, it has already been chilled. And I don't mean that all 6 row barley needs to be in a freezer for X number of days, it just needs to naturally get down to a temperature to break dormancy, about 15 C or the dormancy is not very strong. You can get 6 row with very little dormancy or almost none at all, but if you do have a dormant variety, it needs to be pre chilled before it will get going.

Also the 8 hour soaks that the malt specialists do has oxygen bubbling though it while it is in the soak, it is not just flooded for 8 hours and left.

 

[lurker18]

So in that image right one is feed barley and left one is malt barely?

Correct, generally feed varieties have rachilla with short to no hairs and malt has rachilla with medium to long hairs, and when they are side by side it is very noticeable. However, there are some malt varieties that are medium at best and can easily be confused if that was the only thing you had to go off of.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

Correct, generally feed varieties have rachilla with short to no hairs and malt has rachilla with medium to long hairs, and when they are side by side it is very noticeable. However, there are some malt varieties that are medium at best and can easily be confused if that was the only thing you had to go off of.

Maybe the pic below helps you to identify which type of barley I have. Rachillas of all were missing.

 

[bracconiere]

well it was chiting over night...and this is normal for me...this is what my barley looks like today...started it two days ago. should be ready to dry by tomorrow night...

this is just because, the saying pictures or it didn't happen....

 

[BrewingWisdom]

well it was chiting over night...and this is normal for me...this is what my barley looks like today...started it two days ago. should be ready to dry by tomorrow night...

View attachment 765573

this is just because, the saying pictures or it didn't happen....

That looks like a barley without husk right?

 

[bracconiere]

That looks like a barley without husk right?

no it has a husk, which is why the acrospire isn't visible yet. but it should be popping out by tonight, which is when i'll dry it...

 

[bracconiere]

well here it is at 1pm today..

i circled the acrospires popping out...i find when i have about that many popping, i get better effeciency when brewing with it....

and now you should be able to see them coming out from under the husk....

edit: and it really doesn't smell like much at all, i gave this a 2 hour soak on day 1, and a 5 minute soak, for the sesquient days...making sure to stir at least enough to where it doesn't form a root ball....it was about 2.5-3" deep while sprouting....

edit 2: i'm by no means an expert at this! but i've been doing it for 6 years, and kinda felt out what works? some people say that's cool, but it's sure not 'ice cold'...

 

[bracconiere]

so as far as barley being harder...i don't think it is...this was started ~3 days ago, and here it is locking the enzymes up for the heat treatment....

it will be dry enough for the oven by tomorrow night...but i got beer in the fermenter allready so this batch is going to dry for two days....toss it in the oven overnight, another 10 gallons of hooch made when it comes out...if you want to see my somewhat modified dryer deculmer, let me know!

 

[BrewingWisdom]

so as far as barley being harder...i don't think it is...this was started ~3 days ago, and here it is locking the enzymes up for the heat treatment....


View attachment 765618

it will be dry enough for the oven by tomorrow night...but i got beer in the fermenter allready so this batch is going to dry for two days....toss it in the oven overnight, another 10 gallons of hooch made when it comes out...if you want to see my somewhat modified dryer deculmer, let me know!

You got nice trays
That's my deculmer below with some manual handwork.

 

[bracconiere]

damn! i feel your pain! can you at least get a box fan, and a couple 5 gallon buckets to pass it in front of? the rootlets can broken up by just mixing the malt with hands a bit, and then passing it back and forth between the bucket until you stop seeing the chaff blowing away would be way easier....

here's my dryer, i just throw the malt it and let it run with a leaf shredder bag on the exhaust, gets the malt pristine in about 20-30 minutes...

i modded the dryer to have SS screen over the intake and out put to keep the kernels from blowing out with the chaff...

i malt 20lbs at a time, the only time i'd even consider using a sieve for it is if it was a 1lb small batch of crystal or something!

 

[BrewingWisdom]

damn! i feel your pain! can you at least get a box fan, and a couple 5 gallon buckets to pass it in front of? the rootlets can broken up by just mixing the malt with hands a bit, and then passing it back and forth between the bucket until you stop seeing the chaff blowing away would be way easier....

here's my dryer, i just throw the malt it and let it run with a leaf shredder bag on the exhaust, gets the malt pristine in about 20-30 minutes...

i modded the dryer to have SS screen over the intake and out put to keep the kernels from blowing out with the chaff...

View attachment 765624


i malt 20lbs at a time, the only time i'd even consider using a sieve for it is if it was a 1lb small batch of crystal or something!

Well my quantity is smaller than yours so it's not much of a pain for me.

 

[bracconiere]

Well my quantity is smaller than yours

then maybe something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Comfort-Zone...ocphy=9030197&hvtargid=pla-373606762687&psc=1
https://www.daraz.pk/products/recha...a0e.searchlist.list.1.2ceab385bO5lNN&search=1
and..


https://www.amazon.com/Rubbermaid-C...ocphy=9030197&hvtargid=pla-275062666494&psc=1
https://www.daraz.pk/products/plast...0e.searchlist.list.34.3a316eb9JtbjvW&search=1
it's not the size that matters, it's how you do it!

 

[RWurster]

I malt 2 row barley (with husks) and I have to say it has never taken longer to chit than wheat. As a matter of fact I have to watch it much more hawkishly than the wheat I malt as the barley can over modify very quickly. I have found it is easier to malt barley at lower temperatures just so I can get a good night's sleep when malting.

I just malted 30# of wheat and I also have to malt the remaining 25# of barley I have left.

 

[bracconiere]

I malt 2 row barley (with husks) and I have to say it has never taken longer to chit than wheat. As a matter of fact I have to watch it much more hawkishly than the wheat I malt as the barley can over modify very quickly. I have found it is easier to malt barley at lower temperatures just so I can get a good night's sleep when malting.

I just malted 30# of wheat and I also have to malt the remaining 25# of barley I have left.

30lbs sounds impressive what do you malt in? (not to get off-topic, but not many home maltsters show up here)

 

[RWurster]

I malt in plastic tubs my mom had lying around her house. Just wash thoroughly, steep, rest, steep, and let the malt happen. I actually like the malting part of brewing more than the brewing part, but dont get me wrong I enjoy the buzzed part also I guess I should add that I dry it on some racks I made for drying veggies and flowers to extract seeds. The drying racks are 22" x 48" x 3". I can post some pics tomorrow but its nothing special to be honest. I also kiln my grains. Working with the grain is the fun part for me.

 

[bracconiere]

I actually like the malting part of brewing more than the brewing part

I also kiln my grains.

yeah i put a resistor on my ovens temp probe so that i could get lower temps to kiln also!

 

[RWurster]

yeah i put a resistor on my ovens temp probe so that i could get lower temps to kiln also!

Nice!

 

[bracconiere]

Nice!

you should see my second dryer! just deculmed 20lbs in it! i LOVE it, so much better then the bucket to bucket method....

 

[BrewingWisdom]

so as far as barley being harder...i don't think it is...this was started ~3 days ago, and here it is locking the enzymes up for the heat treatment....


View attachment 765618

it will be dry enough for the oven by tomorrow night...but i got beer in the fermenter allready so this batch is going to dry for two days....toss it in the oven overnight, another 10 gallons of hooch made when it comes out...if you want to see my somewhat modified dryer deculmer, let me know!

Do you put your grains in a air tight closed room or a ventilated room?
I ve read that some malt houses put soaked grains in airtight rooms while someone was saying the room should be ventilated. Some clarification on this will be helpful.

 

[lurker18]

DO NOT put them in air tight. And for all the malt houses that I have been in, I have not seen one in an air tight room, in fact every one of them is fully ventilated, forced air, and misted if the grain bed dries out. I can see by air tight they mean controlled air, but like I said, they are definitely not air tight.

As the barley is sprouting, it is exchanging oxygen, in an air tight container it will quickly consume the oxygen and suffocate itself. This probably will not happen in a 3 day germ, but it might.

Also, some barley, especially lower quality stuff is very sensitive to water, it will drown if kept too wet without air movement, keeping it in an air tight container will just make the problem worse.

 

[BrewingWisdom]

DO NOT put them in air tight. And for all the malt houses that I have been in, I have not seen one in an air tight room, in fact every one of them is fully ventilated, forced air, and misted if the grain bed dries out. I can see by air tight they mean controlled air, but like I said, they are definitely not air tight.

As the barley is sprouting, it is exchanging oxygen, in an air tight container it will quickly consume the oxygen and suffocate itself. This probably will not happen in a 3 day germ, but it might.

Also, some barley, especially lower quality stuff is very sensitive to water, it will drown if kept too wet without air movement, keeping it in an air tight container will just make the problem worse.

Well then looks like opening a room window is a good idea to keep the ventilation flow running.

 

[bracconiere]

Well then looks like opening a room window is a good idea to keep the ventilation flow running.

absolutly DO NOT keep it sealed...it WILL rot! and don't give it TOO much air either it needs to stay moist to grow.....


and unless you want to concoct a contraption to automatically mist the grain and some way to automatically stir it, like a 50 gallon plastic drum, and motor turning it or something, with misting....


honestly it works just fine for me using my spare bathtub that's not used for anything else....(it's a vanity tub, figure this a good use for it?)


i do make sure to mix the grain bed which is about 2"'s deep up to let the lower kernels breath, but i do it by hand maybe once twice a day...

and i eyeball when the barley starts slowing down on growing, and needs a quick watering to finish it off...becomes more an art, when it's at the almost done...to water or not water... just a little more growth! i usually opt on the more growth...

edit: but i find the barley expects a dry spell and won't die, and just conserve energy for a while before sudden death happens...

edit 2: i mean if you want to out do me, if you're crafty enough to stir the barley while something like this was running?

https://www.daraz.pk/products/mist-fan-system-complete-kit-i144332404.html
just get a fan speed controller for the water flow, so you can dial in how thick the mist was?


(just keep in mind you'd be aproching pro levels at that point! it doesn't need to be that hard )

 

[BrewingWisdom]

absolutly DO NOT keep it sealed...it WILL rot! and don't give it TOO much air either it needs to stay moist to grow.....


and unless you want to concoct a contraption to automatically mist the grain and some way to automatically stir it, like a 50 gallon plastic drum, and motor turning it or something, with misting....


honestly it works just fine for me using my spare bathtub that's not used for anything else....(it's a vanity tub, figure this a good use for it?)


i do make sure to mix the grain bed which is about 2"'s deep up to let the lower kernels breath, but i do it by hand maybe once twice a day...

and i eyeball when the barley starts slowing down on growing, and needs a quick watering to finish it off...becomes more an art, when it's at the almost done...to water or not water... just a little more growth! i usually opt on the more growth...

edit: but i find the barley expects a dry spell and won't die, and just conserve energy for a while before sudden death happens...

edit 2: i mean if you want to out do me, if you're crafty enough to stir the barley while something like this was running?

https://www.daraz.pk/products/mist-fan-system-complete-kit-i144332404.html
just get a fan speed controller for the water flow, so you can dial in how thick the mist was?


(just keep in mind you'd be aproching pro levels at that point! it doesn't need to be that hard )

And does drying it in sun afterwards ok?
This time my malt won't go in any microwave or oven. Just will dry it in the sun and crush afterwards.
Sun is strong here these days ,won't take long maximum 1-2 days

 

[bracconiere]

And does drying it in sun afterwards ok?
This time my malt won't go in any microwave or oven. Just will dry it in the sun and crush afterwards.
Sun is strong here these days ,won't take long maximum 1-2 days

what about bugs? i wouldn't, and if you don't kiln it will be taste gross...and did i miss something, when did the microwave come into play? first i've heard of you trying that?

edit: thinking about it though, sun dried malt if cover with some cheese cloth or something...could be a niche malt style!

 

[BrewingWisdom]

what about bugs? i wouldn't, and if you don't kiln it will be taste gross...and did i miss something, when did the microwave come into play? first i've heard of you trying that?

edit: thinking about it though, sun dried malt if cover with some cheese cloth or something...could be a niche malt style!

Don't have bugs here, specially during daylight under the scorching sun.