Why all the 2 stage cooling systems instead of recirculating the Wert?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Kilr Kowalski

Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2019
Messages
6
Reaction score
3
I just started reading the forum after about 7 years and see a whole bunch of people talking about getting a 2nd CFC or ice bath to get down to pitching temperatures.

Most of the pics shown have two pumps in them.

I can’t understand why these brewers aren’t recirculating the cooler wert back into the Brew kettle ready to be cooled by the CFC again.

I mean I use Celsius and so I don’t understand everyone’s groundwater temperatures - maybe they are higher than the pitching temps? Maybe they have limited cool water?

I use the CFC wert lumen to return to my BK and run rainwater at 16-18 degrees C(18 in summer) from a 3000L tank, (returning to the tank) in summer at 35C in Melbourne. Takes 15 minutes to get my BK temp to 18C, where I switch outflow to the fermenter.

This uses 2 pumps 1 CFC and stores about 1-2 degrees C in my Rainwater which is gone by the next morning.
 
Your rainwater is nice and cool, and you got plenty of it to chill your batch without wasting any water (recirc to tank).

Many of us rely on groundwater. When that's warmer than the target temp we often use a pre-chiller with ice to take it down those last 10-20C degrees. We recirc the ice water, hence the 2nd pump.

Is that what you were wondering?
 
I would think most people actually depend on a municipal water system running under the streets and byways hence subject to prevailing climate conditions. If you're in Texas that might mean tap water well above any pitching temperature (save for Kveik strains) most of the year...

Cheers!
 
Ground water is Bore water correct? How far above pitching temp is the water?

Depends on latitude with well or artisanal water. Around here it is mid 50'sF, year round, same temp as any caves in the ole lateral strip you're in ..(unsolicited fun fact!)

Wtf with the bold? must have hit a key.

Just wanted to add that it seems OK to pitch even if wort is somewhat above target fermentation temp, as long as conditions or provision is there to lower the temp within 24 hours or so. Yeast just getting started will like the warmer temp, and fermentation has not really got going, so not making warm fermented beer..
 
I just measured the water out of our tap and it’s 84F (approx 28C). This has been an exceptionally cool summer so far however, and is nowhere as warm as I’ve seen it in the past. 92F, 33C, is as warm as I recall measuring it, but has likely been warmer still at points.
 
Yeah, I'm not a fan of that as yeast tends to generate off characters during the lag phase...

Cheers!

That's cool, but how does it affect flavor if very little wort being converted to beer at that stage? anyway, I've gotten temp right down to target, and sometimes not, have not noticed difference final product either way.

Probably varies with what one making and what yeast one uses. I'm mainly referring to lagers that ferment in mid to low 50'sF.

If I pitch at 64F or something, and it is down to target temp in 24 hours, have not noticed adverse taste. Quite the opposite, yeast has built up some vigor and does a good job.

Do you oxygenate?
 
I like to get my wort within the mfr recommended temp range of the yeast I’m using. In the winter that’s not a problem, in the summer that is a problem. So I get it as low as I can, transfer to the fermenter, get it in the fermenter fridge and wait a few hours. I brew in the AM so I am usually able to pitch by bedtime.
 
I just measured the water out of our tap and it’s 84F (approx 28C). This has been an exceptionally cool summer so far however, and is nowhere as warm as I’ve seen it in the past. 92F, 33C, is as warm as I recall measuring it, but has likely been warmer still at points.

28C, well that is mighty unpleasant. I guess no one drinks water straight from the faucet?

Well I can count my blessings that my wife insisted on rainwater tanks under the house.
 
I just started reading the forum after about 7 years and see a whole bunch of people talking about getting a 2nd CFC or ice bath to get down to pitching temperatures.

Most of the pics shown have two pumps in them.

I can’t understand why these brewers aren’t recirculating the cooler wert back into the Brew kettle ready to be cooled by the CFC again.

I mean I use Celsius and so I don’t understand everyone’s groundwater temperatures - maybe they are higher than the pitching temps? Maybe they have limited cool water?

I use the CFC wert lumen to return to my BK and run rainwater at 16-18 degrees C(18 in summer) from a 3000L tank, (returning to the tank) in summer at 35C in Melbourne. Takes 15 minutes to get my BK temp to 18C, where I switch outflow to the fermenter.

This uses 2 pumps 1 CFC and stores about 1-2 degrees C in my Rainwater which is gone by the next morning.

Counterflow chillers are most effective when the wort enters them at the highest possible temperature. With effective I mean they will let you cool a certain volume of wort to your target temperature in the shortest possible time and using as little cooling fluid as possible.
If you recirculate back into the kettle the cooled wort will mix with the warm wort again and the wort temperature at the CFC inlet will gradually decrease as time goes by, which will decrease its efficiency and cause you to use a lot more cooling water and will take a lot more time. Basically, by recirculating you will turn your CFC back into an immersion chiller with all the disadvantages of the latter.
If your cooling water is not cold enough the only way to keep the advantages of a CFC while still being able to reach your target temp in that case is either using a 2-stage system or cooling the wort as far as possible given your water's temperature and then using a glycol reservoir to rapidly cool the wort in the fermenter to target temp. I use the latter with my Unitank.
 
28C, well that is mighty unpleasant. I guess no one drinks water straight from the faucet?

Well I can count my blessings that my wife insisted on rainwater tanks under the house.

Yeah, there is a point in late spring that ice is definitely preferable. It helps that our tap water is better IMHO than a lot of bottled water.

How big are your tanks? I’ve had rain barrels in the past, but it sounds like you’ve taken it to the next level!
 
Ground water is Bore water correct? How far above pitching temp is the water?
As in from a drilled well, yes.

Sorry I meant to say municipal water. Actually, groundwater/well water tends to be usually cool enough, even in summer, since the wells tend to be deep. It's the municipal water that usually fluctuates with the seasons, not just in temperature, due to the sources and delivery system.

Much municipal water here in the U.S. comes from deep wells tapping into aquifers, or surface water from rivers and reservoirs.

My tap water in Summer is often around 60-65F, not cool enough to chill the last 20 degrees efficiently. Using a plate chiller. Once the recirculating wort has chilled to around 20-30 degrees above tap water temps, I use a 5 gallon bucket with ice water containing a copper immersion coil as a pre-chiller in a single pass until the exit water drops low enough to recirculate it for the last 10F degrees or so. At that point the wort is directly routed into the fermenter.

In Winter the tap water is around 55F and fine, except for Lagers, then.
 
Yeah, there is a point in late spring that ice is definitely preferable. It helps that our tap water is better IMHO than a lot of bottled water.

How big are your tanks? I’ve had rain barrels in the past, but it sounds like you’ve taken it to the next level!

We have 3000L under the crawlspace.
 
28C, well that is mighty unpleasant. I guess no one drinks water straight from the faucet?

Well I can count my blessings that my wife insisted on rainwater tanks under the house.

On my last brew day I took the temperature of my tap water here in Florida = 87F or 30.5C The water pipes coming up to the house are only buried about 18 inches deep. So the water temperature is pretty close to the air temperature.

I use an immersion chiller and just took it as low as it would go in a reasonable amount of time. Then I transferred to my fermenter and put it in the chamber to chill the rest of the way. It took a few hours.
 
Back
Top