Whirlpooling Hot Wort

[arkiteqt]

Good afternoon everyone. I've attached a pic of my setup, her name is Beertha. Anyway, About whirlpooling... I never have, but intend to start. Here is how I would like to whirlpool:

- 15 minutes before flame out - add whirlfloc
- 10 min before flame out - start whirlpool w/ chugger ss pump (to sanitize pump)
- at flame out - put lid on & continue whirlpool w/ pump for 2 minutes
- wait 20-30 minutes to establish the trub cone... and then, drawing from the side of the BK, pump the wort through my plate chiller and into my primary

My main question is about hops... Aren't I essentially extending the steeping time of all my hop additions by the time it takes for the trub cone to establish? IE, a hop addition intended for a 5 minute steep now becomes 5+20 minutes? Granted, I will have some temp lose due to the pump circulating wort, but it will still be hot enough to affect my hop aromas, right???

How do/would others deal with this?

Many thanks,

Joe

 

[milldoggy]

Anything above 140. I recall 170 and 140 as target points, can't remember what changes though. I chill when whirlpooling.

Also, be ready to cycle your pump while whirlpooing and the flame is on. Boiling causes bubbles which you can suck up in your pump.

 

[thekraken]

FYI, I just read this on the midwest supplies website about whirlfloc "add it with 5 minutes remaining in the boil. Yes, 5 minutes is correct. According to the manufacturer, if Whirlfloc is in the boil for any longer than 10 minutes, the active ingredients become denatured and therefore will not do their job."

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/whirlfloc-tablets-10-tablets.html

 

[Bensiff]

Yes you will still get hop extraction post flameout. If you do some homework you can start to figure it out, if calculating IBUs is that important to you. I suppose that really depends on style though. Otherwise welcome to the world of flameout additions, aka hopstands. I start cycling my wort through my counter flow around 15 minutes before flame out to sanitize and then chill during the whirlpool. This gives me the option of quickly cooling and shutting down extraction or bumping down the temp some and allowing lengthy hopstands before starting the cool down.

 

[Natdavis777]

Anything above 140. I recall 170 and 140 as target points, can't remember what changes though. I chill when whirlpooling.

Also, be ready to cycle your pump while whirlpooing and the flame is on. Boiling causes bubbles which you can suck up in your pump.

+1

Instead of having to bird dog my pump the last few minutes of the boil while recirculating, I now just keep all of my lines submerged in my star san solution along with the pump head. When I cut the flame and start my whirlpool, I screw the pump head back on (takes seconds) hook up my lines, and pump away.

I also chill while recirculating. This came about because I wasnt able to hit pitching temps in one pass through my chiller. For flameout additions I will throw them in around 180F and shut off my water supply for however long I want them to steep at that temp, then turn the water back on and resume chilling.

 

[Natdavis777]

By the way, solid set up:rockin:

 

[Black Island Brewer]

140F is the temp you can put your lid on to avoid dripping the DMS precursor back into your wort, 170F (although I thought it was 180F) is when isomerization ceases. So the time you spend whirlpooling above 180F (or maybe 170F) will continue to isomerize your hops, turning your 60 minute addition into a 70, 80 or 90 minute addition depending on how long you whirlpool above that temp.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Oh, and what you're doing is almost exactly what I do as well.

 

[milldoggy]

It could be 180 and not 170

 

[arkiteqt]

Thank you for the responses. This is new to me. I just finished this setup coming from a jet burner, single kettle and an immersion chiller.

For those that cool their wort during the whirlpool, do you use a counterflow or immersion chiller? Could I just recirculate my wort thru the counter flow and back into the wort during whirlpool to drop the temp to 140 and then let it sit? I'm new to this sophisticated stuff and tend to make a big deal out of nothing... Thanks again.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I whirlpool through a CFC and back in through a whirlpool port. At 140F I put the lid on, then chill it to pitching temp. Then I kill the pump, let it settle for 20-30 minutes, then pump into my fermentor , slowly so as to not suck up the trub.

 

[Natdavis777]

I whirlpool thru my plate chiller. You can do the same, just shut off your water, so it stops the cooling process, at your hop stand desired temp, then when you are ready to cool again, turn the water back on

 

[milldoggy]

Chillzilla here. Sometimes I do not whirlpool and go from 212 to 60 in a single pass right into my carboy. All depends on how much time I have.

 

[arkiteqt]

Cool thanks everyone. I am going to give it a whirl. I have an IPA in the pipeline with a lot of late additions and hope to implement the whirlpool for the first time. I really appreciate the feedback. Prost!

 

[bd2xu]

One of the best IPAs I've ever done was a clonish attempt at Lagunitas Sucks. After flameout hops I used my immersion chiller (while whirlpooling) to knock it down to 170. Held there for 20 minutes with more hops. Supposedly steeping hops around 170 extracts a great amount of flavor and aroma. It worked. Beer was a hop bomb but more than that it had depth. Very complex layers of hops and abundance of aroma and flavor.



Primary: Helles, ordinary bitter
Secondary: Maibock
On tap: Oatmeal Brown, Irish Stout, Amber Ale, Orange Belgian IPA,
Bottled: Dwarven Gold Ale, La Fin Du Mond clone, Hefeweizen

 

[AkTom]

I am going to give it a whirl.

I see what you did there...

 

[100amps]

i am going to give it a whirl.

I see what you did there...

+1

 

[arkiteqt]

Thanks again everyone. I found this on BYO about hop stands/whirlpool hopping and am much clearer. It doesn't scare me anymore!

https://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[BrewdogSC]

Yes you will still get hop extraction post flameout. If you do some homework you can start to figure it out, if calculating IBUs is that important to you. I suppose that really depends on style though. Otherwise welcome to the world of flameout additions, aka hopstands. I start cycling my wort through my counter flow around 15 minutes before flame out to sanitize and then chill during the whirlpool. This gives me the option of quickly cooling and shutting down extraction or bumping down the temp some and allowing lengthy hopstands before starting the cool down.

Hi Bensiff,
Do you have the chilling water flow on during that last 15 minutes of the boil when you cycle the wort through the counter flow chiller for the whirlpool?
Thanks.

 

[arkiteqt]

Hi Bensiff,
Do you have the chilling water flow on during that last 15 minutes of the boil when you cycle the wort through the counter flow chiller for the whirlpool?
Thanks.

No, reread his post. Running the hot wort thru the counter-flow chiller is to sanitize it with heat... after 15 minutes, kill the flame and you could, potentially, start to chill the wort down to help stop isomerization. I'm not sure, but it sounds like Bensiff uses a counter-flow/plate chiller, hence he needs to cycle the hot wort to sanitize. You can't drop a counterflow into the boil as you would with an immersion chiller.

 

[BrewdogSC]

What I had thought about is to run the sort through the counter flow to sterilize it, but not sure if you need to also run cooling water which would chill the wort some before returning to the brew kettle, just don't want to damage counter flow chiller. Also interested in finding out if someone has used counterfow with water from HLT as rims unit to step mash.

 

[BrewdogSC]

Sort equals wort damn auto correct. [emoji482]

 

[BrewdogSC]

No, reread his post. Running the hot wort thru the counter-flow chiller is to sanitize it with heat... after 15 minutes, kill the flame and you could, potentially, start to chill the wort down to help stop isomerization. I'm not sure, but it sounds like Bensiff uses a counter-flow/plate chiller, hence he needs to cycle the hot wort to sanitize. You can't drop a counterflow into the boil as you would with an immersion chiller.

Makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Bensiff]

What I had thought about is to run the sort through the counter flow to sterilize it, but not sure if you need to also run cooling water which would chill the wort some before returning to the brew kettle, just don't want to damage counter flow chiller. Also interested in finding out if someone has used counterfow with water from HLT as rims unit to step mash.

I have a counterflow chiller. No need to run water as the water side of the system does not need to be sterilized. Even without water you will loose your boil for a few minutes when you begin recirculating. Copper, stainless, brass, and solder in whatever combination your CFC has will not be damaged by hot wort. If you have a home made design using a garden hose, the hose may not like the high temp. But, it won't ruin the CFC. I just wouldn't use that water to drink.

What you are describing using the counterflow with HLT is pretty close to the same as a HERMS system. I would tend to think it would be less efficient energy wise; but, perhaps a good CFC with a design to create turbulence might transfer heat faster as HERMS are fairly slow at raising temps for step mashing.

 

[BrewdogSC]

Thanks Bensiff, that's just the info I was looking for. I have an all copper cfc.

 

[Bensiff]

Thanks Bensiff, that's just the info I was looking for. I have an all copper cfc.

No prob. If you try to operate your CFC as a HERMs post the results. Might work as some cool minimalist approach that turns a counter flow into a multi tool.

 

[govner1]

I have a counterflow chiller. No need to run water as the water side of the system does not need to be sterilized. Even without water you will loose your boil for a few minutes when you begin recirculating. Copper, stainless, brass, and solder in whatever combination your CFC has will not be damaged by hot wort. If you have a home made design using a garden hose, the hose may not like the high temp. But, it won't ruin the CFC. I just wouldn't use that water to drink.



What you are describing using the counterflow with HLT is pretty close to the same as a HERMS system. I would tend to think it would be less efficient energy wise; but, perhaps a good CFC with a design to create turbulence might transfer heat faster as HERMS are fairly slow at raising temps for step mashing.

I thoroughly flush my CFC (copper) w/ Starsan & let it sit during the boil. I clear all the Starsan then connect for recirc. I run the recirc/whirlpool for several minutes before turning on my cold water. Finally, I rinse the CFC w/ water & Starsan after use.

 

[Bensiff]

I thoroughly flush my CFC (copper) w/ Starsan & let it sit during the boil. I clear all the Starsan then connect for recirc. I run the recirc/whirlpool for several minutes before turning on my cold water. Finally, I rinse the CFC w/ water & Starsan after use.

Wow, you beat me on sterilization. I circulate for 20 minutes with boiling wort. After the brew I take my hose with a spray nozzle and pressure rinse the wort tube and let it drip dry until the next brew day.

 

[joshesmusica]

if you're wondering about exact ibu extras you'll be getting from the extra whirlpool time, you really should invest in beersmith. you've spent so much money on your setup already, you might as well spend a little more and save yourself the headache of calculating everything yourself for every single brew.

 

[Natdavis777]

I thoroughly flush my CFC (copper) w/ Starsan & let it sit during the boil. I clear all the Starsan then connect for recirc. I run the recirc/whirlpool for several minutes before turning on my cold water. Finally, I rinse the CFC w/ water & Starsan after use.

I let my platechiller sit in my bucket of starsan until Im ready to use it, then flush and use. Found this easier than trying to recirc the last few min of the boil.

 

[BrewdogSC]

No prob. If you try to operate your CFC as a HERMs post the results. Might work as some cool minimalist approach that turns a counter flow into a multi tool.

Will do. Thanks again.