Which is the more accurate water calculator? AI or Brewers friend?

[Matteo57]

Looking to do a scotch ale and wanted to shoot for the following water chemistry:
• Calcium (Ca): 60 ppm
• Magnesium (Mg): 10 ppm
• Sodium (Na): 20 ppm
• Chloride (Cl): 85 ppm
• Sulfate (SO4): 35 ppm
• Bicarbonate (HCO3): 150 ppm

adding my information into AI and also brewers friend calculator, I get quite different numbers. Trying to figure out what is more accurate.
This is for a total of 20.4 gallons of RO water (mash and sparge calculated together).

AI states adding the following minerals in would give the above targeted profile that I'm shooting for:
Calcium Chloride (CaCl₂): 4.6 g
Gypsum (CaSO₄): 1.9 g
Epsom Salt (MgSO₄): 2.6 g
Baking Soda (NaHCO₃): 9.5 g
Sodium Chloride (NaCl): 1 g

When I type those additions into brewers friend, it gives me the following information that the water profile would be at for the 20.4 gallons.
Calcium (Ca): ~22 ppm
Magnesium (Mg): ~5 ppm
Sodium (Na): ~59 ppm
Chloride (Cl): ~52 ppm
Sulfate (SO₄): ~34 ppm
Bicarbonate (HCO₃): ~112 ppm


Both are quite a bit off from each other..... Anyone able to weigh in and assist in my calculations?

Appreciated the help!!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

sorry what is AI ?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

sorry what is AI ?

Artificial Intelligence, I'm sure...

The thing you absolutely need to know @Matteo57, is that while the chatgpt can spit out a convincing argument, it doesn't ACTUALLY KNOW a damned thing.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

weigh in and assist

AppDev friend in my network tells a story of a recent event where she used an LLM to some generate code. Then she asked it to review the code. Then she asked it to apply the code review comments to the code. She claims the second iteration of the code was better (not correct, but better).

Pause. If you don't see the obvious question, re-read the 1st paragraph one time.

The obvious question: why didn't it write the better code the 1st time?

so maybe ask it to review it's work and see if it agrees with itself?

it doesn't ACTUALLY KNOW a damned thing.

Yes, in late 2024, it's still mostly (highly refined) statistical word generation.

---

Personally, and FWIW, in late 2024, the LLMs that I use are giant echo chambers for the content (like the content here at HomeBrewTalk). And they still suffer from hallucinations.

 

[mac_1103]

And they still suffer from hallucinations.

Artificial hallucinations? Or would that be redundant?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Artificial hallucinations? Or would that be redundant?

Well, organic hallucinations come from fungi, so not redundant!

 

[rmr9]

I would say either use brewers friend or better yet Bru’n water. To each their own but I don’t understand using AI for things like hobbies. Those are the things I want to do myself, not have a machine do for me.

Edit: I see you’re using it to look at amounts to add to your water to get the chemistry - just use brewers friend that’s easy enough and for the reasons others have mentioned it’s probably more accurate as well. My opinion on using AI for hobbies still stands.

 

[fluketamer]

"it's still mostly (highly refined) statistical word generation."

so....ZORK.

 

[jdauria]

Not familiar with Brewers Friend water calculator, but one thing is which type of Calcium Chloride are either using, anhydrous (100% CaCl2) or dihydrate, which is CaCl2 that has absorbed water from the air, which most any calcium chloride will be, once the container is open. I did an experiment once...put 5 grams of it in a shot glass put in in the oven at 350 for 15 mins...when I took it out and remeasured it, it was only 4.1 grams once the oven heat removed all the water that it had absorbed.

I know BeerSmith uses Dihydrate, so since it's not 100% pure, means they call for more grams to reach a profile than say the Bru'n Water spreadsheet which I use and which recommends to pick anhydrous if you are not sure which you have, so that you are are not overdosing. So doing that, the spreadsheet may tell me to use 1.2 grams, while BeerSmith will tell me to use 3. I know BrewFather let's you pick which type of Calcium Chloride to use. Bru'n Water also has a calculation for using liquid calcium chloride, which is a more accurate way to use it. There are videos online on how to make a liquid version.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The Brewers Friend Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator at
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
supports both.

 

[wepeeler]

Those amounts from AI are very low additions for 20.4 gal of water. I'm often using that much Calcium Chloride, Gypsum and Epsom salt in 5 gal batches. I use Brewfather for water additions, but I have used Brewer's Friend with good luck in the past.

 

[Broken Crow]

And they still suffer from hallucinations.

Be careful! You're verging on getting political. Keep in mind that those coding the AI's don't themselves comprhend Human neural-networks and the how and why of their function, and like most humans they actually believe there is such a thing as 'pure intelligence' without dopamine-motivativation..'existential' if you will.

 

[Broothru]

The Brewers Friend Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator at
https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/
supports both.
View attachment 864127

And recommends dihydrate for the above stated reason that anhydrous will readily become dihydrate once exposed to the ambient atmosphere. Most of us are not operating in a controlled laboratory setting. But we do tend to “measure with a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil, cut with an axe.”

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So maybe ask it [the LLM} to review it's work and see if it agrees with itself?

Be careful! You're verging on [...]

Is there something wrong with suggesting to OP to ask the LLM that OP used to defend it's response?

With regard to AI hallucinations, they exist. And without real world experience to confirm what one has read, it's currently plausible that AI hallucinations will always exist.

In the real world, adults often have a have different term for LLM statistically generated nonsense. The term is not too far removed from our (USA) agricultural heritage that some of us still remember.

AI hallucination is a phenomenon wherein a large language model (LLM)—often a generative AI chatbot or computer vision tool—perceives patterns or objects that are nonexistent or imperceptible to human observers, creating outputs that are nonsensical or altogether inaccurate.

 

[Clint Yeastwood]

AI = Artificial Idiot.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

how can I compare if I don't have a link to each, please give us more info

 

[Somesaymybeerisdrinkable]

It's been awhile since I asked any chatbot beer related questions but they have used homebrew talk to generate answers.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/bing-chatbot-gets-answers-from-homebrew-talk.728859/

 

[Broken Crow]

Is there something wrong with suggesting to OP to ask the LLM that OP used to defend it's response?

With regard to AI hallucinations, they exist. And without real world experience to confirm what one has read, it's currently plausible that AI hallucinations will always exist.

In the real world, adults often have a have different term for LLM statistically generated nonsense. The term is not too far removed from our (USA) agricultural heritage that some of us still remember.

Apologies Indubitably.. I had a bit to drink and it makes me an Artificial Idiot (Thanks Clint!). Prior to my Axonal Injury, I was working on models of the 'mathematics of choice' in the 7 fundamental structures of cognition but it's now far too complex for what's left of my brain to comprehend (which is a cause for eternal bitterness, so..) When I add a little Alcoholic Inebriation, I suffer the Artificial Illusion that I still have a clue and exhibit A**hat Intransigence and make Annoyingly Irresponsible posts. Sorry about that.

 

[AdjunctBrewer]

Looking to do a scotch ale and wanted to shoot for the following water chemistry:
• Calcium (Ca): 60 ppm
• Magnesium (Mg): 10 ppm
• Sodium (Na): 20 ppm
• Chloride (Cl): 85 ppm
• Sulfate (SO4): 35 ppm
• Bicarbonate (HCO3): 150 ppm

Both are quite a bit off from each other..... Anyone able to weigh in and assist in my calculations?

Appreciated the help!!

The requested profile is unbalanced. The first step is to balance the anions and cations in the requested profile. There are different ways to do this depending on which ions you want to increase or decrease, e.g.:

Ca: 83 ppm
Mg: 10 ppm
Na: 20 ppm
Cl: 85 ppm
SO4: 43 ppm
HCO3: 150 ppm

For 20.4 gallons of water add the following (e.x. Bru N Water):

CaS04: 0.5 grams
CaCl2: 6.5 grams
MgSo4: 7.8 grams
NaCl: 4.0 grams
Ca(OH)2: 7.0 grams

Using a water calculator you'd come up with the additions to reach that profile in 20.4 gallons of water.

Unless a no-sparge mash is planned, bicarbonate (alkalinity) in your sparge water will raise the mash/run-off pH, possibly to levels that will extract tannins.

It's best to stick to low-or-no alkalinity (i.e. RO or distilled) water in the sparge, maybe slightly acidified if necessary to neutralize any alkalinity (... would then have to account for the added flavor ion, lactic, phosphoric, hydrochloic, sulfuric, etc...).

Alkalinity (bicarbonate) should only be added to the mash water for pH adjustment.

To summarize:

1.) Balance the anions and cations in your desired water profile.
2.) Only add alkalinity (bicarbonate) to mash water if necessary to attain the desired mash pH. Split your water volume into mash and sparge (unless doing a no-sparge).
3.) Use low-to-no alkalinity (i.e. RO or distilled) water for sparging (neutralize any alkalinity with desired acid).

 

[brian320fo]

I have a water calculator to answer this exact question. Check it out at

https://phantomwingbrewing.com/Calculator