Which Ale yeast will eat the big sugars?

[polutj]

Quick Question, my ales are coming out too sweet. Which Ale yeast will eat the most sugars?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Some context will help. What kinds of ales? Which yeasts have you tried? Extract? All-grain? At what temp and how long do you mash? How dry do you want to go?

 

[polutj]

Good questions! My all grains seem to come out fine - nice and dry with a great profile. When I try simple & quick extract brews they always seem way too sweet. I'm thinking its because my boil times are shorter resulting in longer sugars the yeasts don't consume very well? Problem is with extract I'm always afraid of caramelizing the smaller wort batches so I don't boil as long. The yeast I've been using is Safale05. Just wondering if there's a yeast that loves the longer sugar chains - if that's the problem? And, the dryer the better! Thanks for the reply!

 

[mac_1103]

I'm thinking its because my boil times are shorter resulting in longer sugars the yeasts don't consume very well?

Boiling time won't change the length of the sugars. The enzymatic actions that determine that all happen in the mash. The malts in your extracts have already been mashed.

Are you checking OG and FG? US-05 should attenuate 78-82%.

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=146&type=YEAST&style_type=1
The thermonuclear bomb of yeasts

 

[Protos]

I'm always afraid of caramelizing the smaller wort batches so I don't boil as long.

In my experience, wort caramelization because of a prolonged boil is a myth. The temperature necessary for caramelizing sugars (115C/240F) is just unobtainable during a normal volume boil. Unless you boil your wort down to syrup and its temperature rises past 115C, no caramelization occurs.
I've done 4-hours boils on some historical recipes, and the resulting wort wasn't caramelized in the least. Sometimes a long-boiled wort gets a darker shade because of the Maillard Reaction and Oxydation but that doesn't impact the flavour.

 

[DBhomebrew]

LME or DME? How fresh?

You can cut the extract with ~10% sugar. Dextrose, table sugar, invert sugar, candi sugar, etc.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

When I try simple & quick extract brews they always seem way too sweet.

Might be a badly designed recipe. (see @DBhomebrew 's comment on replacing some extract with sugar).

Can you post a recipe (along with suggested process) and brew day notes?

 

[Dland]

With all grain, there is more control of how much of the sugars are fermentable, with mash temp facilitating desired enzymes. With extract you get what you are served.

But a more aggressive yeast might help some.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

With extract you get what you are served.

Nope.

As was noted earlier

You can cut the extract with ~10% sugar. Dextrose, table sugar, invert sugar, candi sugar, etc.

in other words,

​

DESIGN​

...​

A WORT​

...​

USING​

...​

INGREDIENTS THAT INCLUDE​

...​

DME OR LME.​

​

 

[Dland]

Nope.

As was noted earlier



in other words,

​

DESIGN​

...​

A WORT​

...​

USING​

...​

INGREDIENTS THAT INCLUDE​

...​

DME OR LME.​

​

You still have to work around the fact the extract is what it is, and there is no control of that. Cutting extract with added sugars is not quite the same as fresh wort.. Kind of like adding some seasonings to your hamburger helper.

No tweaking needed when the wort is made from 100% fresh malted grains of ones choice, and mash temp control.

Not to dis extract brews, they can be great and are a lot easier/quicker.

 

[mac_1103]

No tweaking needed when the wort is made from 100% fresh malts of ones choice.

Not really sure what you mean here. There are all sorts of variables that affect the fermentability of wort, and people tweak their all grain recipes in all sorts of ways to get the desired results for OG and attenuation. OTOH, it actually is true that you know what you're getting with extract - the manufacturer tells you what they made it from and how fermentable it is.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

There are all sorts of variables that affect the fermentability of wort, and people tweak their all grain recipes in all sorts of ways to get the desired results for OG and attenuation.

Which is why, back in #8, i asked

Can [OP] post a recipe (along with suggested process) and brew day notes?

One can make beer that uses DME/LME as the "primary"/"base" malt. And that beer won't be "sweet".
The recipe may use sugar, it may need to use more (or different) hops. It may involve better bottling techniques.

 

[govner1]

Good questions! My all grains seem to come out fine - nice and dry with a great profile. When I try simple & quick extract brews they always seem way too sweet. I'm thinking it’s because my boil times are shorter resulting in longer sugars the yeasts don't consume very well? Problem is with extract I'm always afraid of caramelizing the smaller wort batches so I don't boil as long. The yeast I've been using is Safale05. Just wondering if there's a yeast that loves the longer sugar chains - if that's the problem? And, the dryer the better! Thanks for the reply!

There are no yeast that will “eat” any sugars larger than the monosaccharides that are created during the mashing process at the correct temperature(s). The boil does not change the structure of the sugars in any way.
Both types of extracts , DME & LME, are produced by mashing grains and either concentrating the resulting wort or by drying it to produce a powder. Both of the products are the diluted/ rehydrated by the brewer.
Somewhere in your process you are not creating a wort that is diluted properly and your OG is not correct resulting in a wort that cannot be sufficiently fermented.

 

[Christoff]

I’ve had the same problem with dme brews. I joined a monthly subscription for fun but they only use dme with a few steeping grains for their 1 gal kits. 3 of 4 have been so sweet I can’t drink them. I can’t figure out how to change this and I have been assuming this is just dme. Someone was telling me you need at least 20% (? Can’t remember exact amount) grain to offset a particular flavour from the extract. Maybe this is just it. Since it’s a subscription and I’m doing it for fun to try different recipes I may not otherwise make I’ve been following the recipe rather than tweaking. Does anyone know if this 20% rule is accurate. It apparently came out of a popular book (not palmer’s). Will that cut the sweetness down at all? I think each yeast has been different but they name their yeasts something else despite them being the common commercial dry yeasts so I can’t tell you off the top of my head but I know they’ve been ale yeasts.

 

[mac_1103]

I joined a monthly subscription for fun but they only use dme with a few steeping grains for their 1 gal kits. 3 of 4 have been so sweet I can’t drink them.

Since these are kits I assume that the instructions tell you what the OG and FG should be. So are you saying that the beers attenuate as expected but still end up tasting sweet?

 

[DBhomebrew]

I make a simple English bitter with DME and ~10% invert or straight turbinado when I'm lazy. They ferment completely with no weird off-flavors or cloying sweetness.

Both British and Belgian brewing traditions have a long and well-established history of using sugars to 'tweak' their recipes. Some even at +20%.

All-grain doesn't need tweaking?! Mill settings, mash temps and times, this salt, that salt, a bit of wheat or oat flakes for head retention, an ounce of black malt for color, sugar for fermentability or 'digestibility,' finings for clarity, etc, etc, etc. If it wasn't for tweaking recipes, I bet half of us wouldn't bother with homebrew.

 

[Christoff]

Since these are kits I assume that the instructions tell you what the OG and FG should be. So are you saying that the beers attenuate as expected but still end up tasting sweet?

Yup. My OG and FG are in and around what the instructions say. A few points off here and there because I tend to steep the grains longer and don’t measure the Water to exactly 1 gal when I have had to top up the water. But the FG has never been off by a huge margin. There’s a syrupy taste to all of them I just can’t get past.

 

[Christoff]

I make a simple English bitter with DME and ~10% invert or straight turbinado when I'm lazy. They ferment completely with no weird off-flavors or cloying sweetness.

Both British and Belgian brewing traditions have a long and well-established history of using sugars to 'tweak' their recipes. Some even at +20%.

All-grain doesn't need tweaking?! Mill settings, mash temps and times, this salt, that salt, a bit of wheat or oat flakes for head retention, an ounce of black malt for color, sugar for fermentability or 'digestibility,' finings for clarity, etc, etc, etc. If it wasn't for tweaking recipes, I bet half of us wouldn't bother with homebrew.

Was this in reference to my “tweaking comment” just now or did I miss a post before mine? I was referring to not tweaking the kit recipes because my point of getting the subscription was to taste recipes the way they were intended as a way to much myself out of the box. I definitely wasn’t referring not tweaking recipes at all or not tweaking all grain. Just the specific dme kits I get from the subscription

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Christoff :

on 'tweaking' vs 'recipe design', see #11.

• "Complete Joy of Home Brewing" & "Home Brewer's Companion" talk a lot about adding steeping grains.
• The recent NEIPA recipes here at HomeBrewTalk are often 100% DME (and 'tweak' the recipe using wheat DME for head retention).
• Yeast selection is a key piece (e.g. Windsor vs Verdant: same wort but two different beers)
• Addition bittering hops can be a way to adjust 'sweetness'

Can you post (or link to) a recipe along with process notes?

 

[DBhomebrew]

Was this in reference to my “tweaking comment” just now or did I miss a post before mine? I was referring to not tweaking the kit recipes because my point of getting the subscription was to taste recipes the way they were intended as a way to much myself out of the box. I definitely wasn’t referring not tweaking recipes at all or not tweaking all grain. Just the specific dme kits I get from the subscription

No, sorry. My comments were targeted toward the conversation above.

 

[mac_1103]

My two cents is that this is a recipe issue and not an extract issue. I have brewed a DME + sugar Brut IPA that didn't have the slightest hint of residual sweetness. I've also brewed a couple of DME recipes that had a bit more residual sweetness than I wanted, but that's because I was too afraid of over-hopping and over-carbing them and under-hopped and under-carbed them instead. Easy fix, or "tweak" if you will.

 

[mac_1103]

There’s a syrupy taste to all of them I just can’t get past.

Could it be that the hops in the kits are old?

 

[MicroMickey]

The following came from a paper published in 1922. I believe this statement still rings true.
"Any control of the degree of attenuation should be made during mashing, and not by attempting to adjust matters subsequently."

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Any control of the degree of attenuation should be made during mashing, and not by attempting to adjust matters subsequently."

@MicroMickey : An example of a style that ignores that suggestion is double IPA: they use sugar to boost ABV and help keep FG low.

 

[mac_1103]

The following came from a paper published in 1922. I believe this statement still rings true.
"Any control of the degree of attenuation should be made during mashing, and not by attempting to adjust matters subsequently."

So? How many different beers start with the same amount of the same base malt and end up tasting nothing alike? Aren't those differences among recipes "adjustments"? I can see why folks would assume that the OP's issue is with attenuation but there's no actual evidence that it is, and there is evidence that Christoff's issue is not.

 

[Christoff]

Could it be that the hops in the kits are old?

Interesting. I might try to swap out the hops in the next kit for fresh ones (assuming I or the LHBS has them).

 

[odie]

https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-single?id=146&type=YEAST&style_type=1
The thermonuclear bomb of yeasts

might this fix my RIS? I'm stuck around 1.050. Was expecting 1.030 or less. OG was around 1.130

my LHBS is closing up. but they have some of this....a year old but probably still viable.

 

[mac_1103]

I might try to swap out the hops in the next kit for fresh ones (assuming I or the LHBS has them).

Just to make things a little more complicated... AA% is something I never paid any attention to when I started out brewing extract kits. Then when I started ordering hops separately online I noticed that there's always a range listed on the websites but a specific number on each package (duh!). Some of those ranges are pretty big (duh! again). So you could brew the same kit twice and end up with two beers with quite different IBU.

 

[Paulo Jurza]

What was the temperature of the mashing process? High temperatures lead to long sugars because of denaturation of the enzymes. I made a 80ºC mash to obtain a high FG - suicidal temp - to make a 0.5ABV beer experience. If you want to dry your beer, you have to mash it at 65ºC to shorten the sugars with enzimatic action. Sorry to not using ºF degrees... S-05 is good to attenuate circa 80%. I use it a lot.

 

[Paulo Jurza]

Stuck in 1050 coming from 1130 - isn´t stuck because high alcohol content? These Safale yeasts support maximun of 11%ABV

 

[Paulo Jurza]

(1.130-1.050)*.131=10,48%ABV - it is in the limit of the yeast. You have to use concomitantly another yeast, like REDSTAR Cuvée that supports unitl 18%ABV. Use it when the fermentation stucks to continue it.

 

[odie]

Stuck in 1050 coming from 1130 - isn´t stuck because high alcohol content? These Safale yeasts support maximun of 11%ABV

I've hit about 13.5% with US-05 on this recipe before. Granted, it was a year before I tapped the keg and took that final gravity reading.

 

[Christoff]

Just to make things a little more complicated... AA% is something I never paid any attention to when I started out brewing extract kits. Then when I started ordering hops separately online I noticed that there's always a range listed on the websites but a specific number on each package (duh!). Some of those ranges are pretty big (duh! again). So you could brew the same kit twice and end up with two beers with quite different IBU.

That is something I only just started paying attention too when I noticed my willamette hops were about 3% different.I still have a great idea what to adjust for other than knowing bitterness can cut the sweetness. Still piecing it together. Could this be a reason for the OP's issue with the DME as well?

 

[Christoff]

I think someone asked for the recipes but can't find the post. Sorry if I am making that up lol. Here are two of them. These are the drinkable ones, I can't find the other two. One was an Imperial Stout that I chalked up to being an Imperial Stout. I was undrinkable to me but friends liked it. Figured it was because I don't like Imp St. But each one has had similar issues with the sweetness having a significant syrupy taste. I am definitely not trying to co-opt the thread but maybe something in your advice with help the OP as well. Unfortunately I spilled coffee on my note book the other day and the top of the book is glued together so I can only make out a few numbers. The hoppy rye looks to have an OG of 1.60? The imperial stout finished at 1.022 i think but I can't make out the OG and given I can't find the recipe I gather thats not super helpful. I think all the recipes generally use apx 1-1.25 lbs of dme if I remember correctly with the imp st a little more dme as well as crystal malt. I am at appropriate temperatures and leave them for 3-4 weeks but then keg them once I am done. So even if they were not done fermenting any residual yeast would continue once kegged, no? I don't cold crash. I use all of the yeast provided, hydrate it before hand. It ferments at the appropriate temps and I cannot get that syrupy taste to go away. I may not have topped up with quite enough water because I only just realized the 1 gallon mark on the glass 1 gal carboys is higher than I thought but I can't imagine that makes a big enough difference for the taste (despite it being a 1 gallon batch). My og's were only ever a few points higher and never outside of the range the yeast can handle (under 1.070 except for maybe the ImpS but it was close to the OG the recipe suggested it should be).

 

[Lampy]

Someone correct me if this is wrong, but wouldn't a diastaticus yeast do the job for OP?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here are two of them.

Thanks. I'll look at them later today.

For those who are interested, I converted the PDFs to images (and rotated them)

 

[KeizerBrewr]

Didn't read through most of the posts. What are the typical FG's on your extract batches? Perception of residual sweetness is individual. I've had beers finish below 1.010 that seemed sweet, but other people said they were fantastic and not sweet. Have you tried just bumping up the IBU just a bit?

 

[mac_1103]

Someone correct me if this is wrong, but wouldn't a diastaticus yeast do the job for OP?

Possibly, depending on what the actual underlying issue is. But it will also make it a different beer.

 

[mac_1103]

You have to use concomitantly another yeast, like REDSTAR Cuvée that supports unitl 18%ABV. Use it when the fermentation stucks to continue it.

Champagne yeasts don't ferment maltodextrins. So this will only unstick his fermentation if the US-05 ate all the more complex sugars first and left the simple ones behind. Which seems unlikely. In fact, I'm not even sure if this will ferment maltose.