Where's my hops?

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Jesse17

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I ordered the Fat Tire extract kit from NB. It arrived today, and I'm not happy. It was suppose to come with:

1 oz. Willamette (60 min)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (15 min)

Instead it came with:
1/2 oz. Summit Pellet Hops Alpha 16.7% (60 min)

I understand that there is a hop shortage, and they will substitute hops if they are out of something. But, I would expect to get hops similar to what their kit advertised (and still does advertise) not just the equivalent AAUs.

They may have substituted the AAUs, but where's the flavor/aroma hops. The substitute kit calls for adding the the entire 1/2 oz. at the 60 min. mark, so how's that suppose to replace the flavor/aroma hops that you add at the 15 min. mark?

Am I just being an A$$ here, or would anyone eles be mad about this?
 

Parker36

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I'm with you. And I was seriously thinking about getting that kit soon, too. Not any more.
 

Jekster

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If you're upset I would complain to the company. I could see how you would have some issues given the characteristic descriptions for Mt. Hood and Willamette are not the same as Summit. Summit is a more floral citrus hop suited for IPA's (if I remember correctly) not the same Britishness as the hops that were supposed to be in the recipe.

Hop shortage or not, you should always be happy when you deal with a company. I say let them know your frustrations.
 

bradsul

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I'd be mad, that changes the beer! Give them a call and see what they have to say, I wouldn't call that a clone anymore. Plus you're short 1.5oz of hops for the same price.
 

clemson55

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Got a 1/2lb bag of Mt Hood in my freezer if they dont want to send you some hops let me know I'll send you some for a couple HB's or something.:rockin:
 

Pugilist

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At the least they should have contacted you to see if you wanted the order with substitute hops. I find that downright sneaky, surprised they would do that.
 

paranode

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Yeah that sucks. I had to get some hops I've never heard of to replace Fuggles at my LHBS the other day. Fortunately they at least smelled good and somewhat similar to English hops.
 
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Jesse17

Jesse17

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I just emailed them the following message, and will see what they have to say tomorrow...

Hello,
I ordered your Fat Tire Clone kit which arrived today and was suppose to include 1 oz. each of:

1 oz. Willamette (60 min)
Typical alpha: 4.0-6.0%. Willamette is an American-grown seedless version of Fuggle. Its aroma is mild, but slightly more spicy that Fuggle.

1 oz. Mt. Hood (15 min)
Typical alpha: 4.0-7.0%. American substitute for Hallertau Mittelfrüh. Suitable for all lagers.

instead it included:

1/2 oz. Summit (60 min)
Typical alpha: 17.0-19.0%. A brand new super-high alpha dwarf variety grown on low trellis systems in the Yakima valley. It has a low cohumulone content with a strong orange/tangerine citrus character.

I understand that there is a hop shortage, and many suppliers are substituting hops when they run out. However, you are still listing both the Willamette and the Mt. Hood hops as in stock on your web site. Furthermore, while 1/2 oz. of Summit for 60 min. may replace the AAUs (I haven't calculated to see), I don't see how it's suppose to replace the flavor/aroma addition that would normally be made at the 15 min. mark. Also, I can't see "...a strong orange/tangerine citrus character." Being a desirable characteristic for a "Fat Tire Clone" after reading the descriptions of the hops normally included in this kit.

Did I receive the wrong hops by mistake, or do you really think this would still be a Fat Tire 'clone'? If you're out of Willamette, and Mt. Hood, wouldn't two separate hops each similar to Willamette and Mt. Hood respectively, be a better substitution?

I thank you for your time, and will hold off on brewing this until I receive your response.

Thank You,
Jesse
 

david_42

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:off: Interesting, I didn't realize Summit was a dwarf. That could make it the home-grown bittering hop of choice for people with limited space.
 

ohiobrewtus

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If you haven't already I would certainly call them about it and express your displeasure.
 

Chriso

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david_42 said:
:off: Interesting, I didn't realize Summit was a dwarf. That could make it the home-grown bittering hop of choice for people with limited space.
I was thinking the same thing! I'd love Summit-specific or dwarf-specific info on rhizomes or growing techniques etc, anyone has it, PM me. Been reading up on hop growing, but dwarf varieties aren't mentioned very much in any texts I've found.
 

trent

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I am not trying to be a dick, but how did this even make it to the forum? Instead of emailing, get on the phone and call. NB is a great company, and I am sure they will give you reasons as to what happened, either a mistake or substitution.

:mug:
 

bradsul

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trent said:
I am not trying to be a dick, but how did this even make it to the forum? Instead of emailing, get on the phone and call. NB is a great company, and I am sure they will give you reasons as to what happened, either a mistake or substitution.
He was just looking for a little advice on how to proceed, nothing wrong with that (it's why we're here after-all). I've never dealt with them (customs is a pain) but from all I've heard Northern Brewer is a great company and I'm quite sure they will make things right.

:mug:
 
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Jesse17

Jesse17

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trent said:
I am not trying to be a dick, but how did this even make it to the forum? Instead of emailing, get on the phone and call. NB is a great company, and I am sure they will give you reasons as to what happened, either a mistake or substitution.

:mug:
Like Bradsul said, I started the thread to see what you all thought...IE. should I be upset about it or not. The consensus was I should be, and I should contact them.

I emailed them because it was too late to call them last night. I will call them in a few hours if they don't respond to the email. I don't wont to hassle them until they've had a fair amount of time to respond to the email.

I'm not here to 'bash' NB. This is the first time I ordered from them, and I did that only because of the high praise they get here on HBT (and because they still have the New Belgium/Wyeast yeast). So far, I'm happy with their prices, and how fast they got my order to me.

That being said, it may turn out that this is an appropriate substitution after all. I was thinking that since you add the entire 1/2 oz. of Summit at the 60 min. mark, then maybe the orange/tangerine citrus flavor will have dissipated to the point of having the slightly fruity/spicy flavor that Fat Tire is known for.

Either way, I think that there response (either correcting, or explaining) will benefit this community.
 

Mustangj

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BierMuncher said:
Recipes?
Ingredients?
Hops Substitutions?

What forum would you have suggested?

I think what he is saying is he should have called first before posting on a forum.
 

iamjonsharp

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Yeah, NB should post a disclaimer at the top of their ingredient kits page saying that hops are being substituted in their regular recipes with what's available. I noticed the hop bill had changed for one of their kits I had ordered in the past. I am sure they are trying to use the best possible choice to suit the style with what they have on hand, but they should let people know.
 
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Jesse17

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OK, just got off the phone with them. The lady was very polite, and checked it out for me. She said that yes it is what they meant to substitute with, and it was the closes thing they had.

When I asked about the lack of flavoring hops, and the orange/tangerine character, she said that it is going to have a slightly different flavor than the normal kit, but most of the orange/tangerine flavor should boil out. She said at 60 min. all you're really going to get from it is the bittering.

So, I will brew it as is. If nothing eles, it will be beer (maybe better, maybe worse, but it won't be Fat Tire), and I'll get to try out a new hop. I will continue to order equipment from them, but if I decide to order another kit from them, I will call it in and make sure what they are going to send me first.

I'll let ya'll know how it comes out, in a couple of months.

:off: PS. I stated in post #14, why I started this thread before contacting NB, and I think it was evident in my first post. I will not respond to anymore comments on whether or not I should have started this thread when I did, and I think it wrong that it has even been an issue. Although, everyone's got the right to post what they want, just like I had the right.

Thanks for the ON Topic advise everyone!:mug:
 

InkPouchMan

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I don't get it... how is it the closest thing they had, when they have both Willamette & Mt. Hood in stock?
 

Revvy

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I'm glad you started the thread...and you kept us posted with the results. It helps us to know what's going on...and to support each other. And sometimes to gripe.

That's what this place is for.

But I take it you don't have a LHBS around you? If there was, I'd call them and see what hops they have... I've actually been seeing all my stores around me in Michigan having nearly everything again, now that the holiday's are over and they've got some hop shipments in. Last week I picked up about 8 different 1 ounces packs....no limits and they averaged about $2.60 a pack. I scored 5 oz of Cascade, 2 oz of centennial and 2 of Fuggles. I would have picked up more but I didn't want to be greedy and I couldn't think of anything else I would need for awhile.
 
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Jesse17

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My nearest LHBS is 150 miles away. I haven't been there yet.

I asked her about the fact that they still have the right hops listed on the web site for sale, and she said that they were out of a lot of stuff, and they just got there new stuff in. So, I believe they were out of it when they shipped my order last Thur. but was more concerned with what they chose to replace it with.

I'm not mad, I just think they used poor judgment in their replacement choice. I'm not even thinking about the fact that they got away with sending me 1/4 of the amount of hops that I was suppose to get even though all three hops are sold for about the same price on there website.
 

Dude

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Jesse17 said:
My nearest LHBS is 150 miles away. I haven't been there yet.

I asked her about the fact that they still have the right hops listed on the web site for sale, and she said that they were out of a lot of stuff, and they just got there new stuff in. So, I believe they were out of it when they shipped my order last Thur. but was more concerned with what they chose to replace it with.

I'm not mad, I just think they used poor judgment in their replacement choice. I'm not even thinking about the fact that they got away with sending me 1/4 of the amount of hops that I was suppose to get even though all three hops are sold for about the same price on there website.
I think you handled it well, and your damn straight oyu have a right to be a little upset about it.

I think Summit is a poor choice for a subsitution.

I'd e-mail them back personally. I realize the hop shortage and all, but they need to send you something a bit closer, IMHO.
 

c.n.budz

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It's good that they explained the situation to you but I'd contact them again and ask for another 1.5ozs of hops. They priced that kit based on it containing 2ozs of hops, they sent you 1/2oz. They either owe you a few bucks or some more hops.
 

Chriso

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Revvy said:
I'm glad you started the thread...and you kept us posted with the results. It helps us to know what's going on...and to support each other. And sometimes to gripe.
Exactly. If we're not "allowed" to post our own experiences in our forum that we help to build and grow and succeed, then why do we post here again?

Glad that NB was pleasant to work with - but like the others said..... at current prices (and especially NB's current prices, I was looking at those last night), the 1.5 oz you are short is a BIG deal nowadays. Even if it's not more Summit (which I would gladly take :D ) they should give you some sort of compensation for the fact that your Fat Tire isn't really a Fat Tire anymore. If it's not hops or a minor refund, they should at least give you a $X off coupon for your next kit or something.
 

Ryanh1801

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That is complete BS. IMO... After seeing NB note on their hop page I will never give them a dime!!! They seem more concerned about making money than customer service. I never plan on making an order from them.
 

john from dc

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if they were indeed out of your kit's hops when they sent out your order but have since restocked, i think offering to exchange is a reasonable compromise.

since the deal is essentially done, you'd probably end up paying for shipping. but i can't think of any good reason for them not to sub back in the hops you originally ordered.

of course that would delay your brewing considerably, so you'd have to decide if it's worth it to you.
 

brewt00l

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Fat Tire with Summit?? WTF?

If you plan to brew enough to make it worth while, I would keep the summit and order some more appropriate hops for the kit.
 

Pugilist

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I still say it goes back to good customer service and communication. A homebrew supply shop should know that when someone orders specific hops they probably dont want a close type, they want THAT type.

They should have made an email or phone call to let him know, just sending them was very poor business.
 

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I know you ordered this to use the FT yeast with it...if I were you i'd stash that yeast in the fridge, and maybe we can do a trade of some sorts...I have the hops you're looking for if you wan't to brew a "real" fat tire clone. You could, in turn, send me some yeast samples that I could add to my bank under a sealed, sterile solution of maltose.

:D
 

amishland

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I purchased the same kit, and brewed it yesterday.

I am upset that my clone may not taste like it should, but am new and dont know better to have gotten upset when the kit arrived.
 

Kod_x

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I had a terrible time trying to find hops to buy from any online retailer. I have ordered a few recipes from different online shops and have been substituted hops from 2 of the "big" shops.

I went into a LHBS in Phoenix and walked out the door with 8 different types of hops and some 2 row. (2.89 an ounce for you record keepers. )

Shrug. The homebrew market right now, is, well.. interesting.
 
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Jesse17

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I've decided to hold off on brewing this. I'm going to order the hops I should have gotten, from somewhere eles, probably AHB.

Of course, that will require paying their flat shipping, which I love, but can't pass up ordering more stuff at the same time because of it. So, I may wait until I get some bills paid before I order it.

Anyone know what kind of recipes I should be looking for, to use this Summit?
 

Beerrific

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Jesse17 said:
I've decided to hold off on brewing this. I'm going to order the hops I should have gotten, from somewhere eles, probably AHB.

Of course, that will require paying their flat shipping, which I love, but can't pass up ordering more stuff at the same time because of it. So, I may wait until I get some bills paid before I order it.

Anyone know what kind of recipes I should be looking for, to use this Summit?
I find this whole thing kind of ridiculous. You should not have to shop elsewhere to complete a kit from them. Period.

Seeing how the hops for this clone are pretty standard and they list the ingredients that you are buying when you purchased this clone and they sent you a hop that is not even close and they have the correct hops they should fix this. IMO, you are well within your rights to continue to complain, maybe even take it up with a manager or the owner.

You might also refer them to this thread. I was contemplating buying some kits from them that had hops I wanted and the price was not ridiculous. Now that I see they substitute hops without even thinking about it, I will not. In fact, this might persuade me from buying from them again.
 
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Jesse17

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This what's suppose to be in the NB kit:
0.50 lbs. Victory Malt
0.50 lbs. Briess Caramel 60
1 lb. Pilsen DME (boil for 60 min.)
6 lbs. Munich Malt Syrup (boil for 15 min.)
1 oz. Willamette (60 min)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (15 min)
Wyeast #1792 Fat Tire Ale Yeast

I have .5 oz. of Hersbrucker left from another kit. Mt. Hood and Hersbrucker are listed as substitutions for each other (in fact the Hersbrucker I have is left over from an AHB Fat Tire kit)

So what I am thinking is I'll use the .5 oz. of Summit (60 min) that NB sent for the bittering hops, and add the .5 oz. Hersbrucker that I already have to replace the 1 oz. of Mt. Hood.

Since the Summit will replace the bittering, and I only have .5 oz of Hersbrucker I was thinking that I should add it at 5 min. or even dry hop it. What would y'all recommend?
 
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Jesse17

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mrkristofo said:
I know you ordered this to use the FT yeast with it...if I were you i'd stash that yeast in the fridge, and maybe we can do a trade of some sorts...I have the hops you're looking for if you wan't to brew a "real" fat tire clone. You could, in turn, send me some yeast samples that I could add to my bank under a sealed, sterile solution of maltose.

:D
I ordered the kit with the Fat Tire yeast, and an extra pack of yeast just for propagating. Now I just need to find some glycerin <SP>, jars, and maybe a stir plate before I use it.

Thanks for the offer though. I'd be glad to do some trading, once I have some brews worth trading.
 

Seabee John

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Not to pile on... But I live in St. Paul where NB is located. Ive been in there several times and each time I go, I leave asking myself WHY I decided to go to NB when Midwest is another 15 minutes down the road. Their customer service sucks, their prices are predictably higher than Midwest, and I've always been treated poorly (ignored) when I've been in there. I shop at midwest and my experience there has been nothing but pleasant. Midwest still has plenty of hops and they always do the best they can to fix me up with the next best thing if they don't have a particular type. I have never been shorted in amounts either. It sounds like NB got caught with their pants down when it came to their hops contract. Seen their hops prices ??? $6.00+ an oz??? WTF

Sorry for the rant... but they pissed me off.
 

Chriso

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I'm a big fan of Midwest. I've never even ordered from NB directly, only on a split order with a friend. Austin isn't bad, but I just like Midwest better for some reason. And Midwest's got the cheapest rates (shipped) on WL yeast. (I'm a WL convert, Wyeast can KMA), and most often can ship to me the fastest too! :D

I just wish I lived within driving distance.....
 

BierMuncher

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chriso said:
I'm a big fan of Midwest...
Midwest has never even considered subbing or dropping something from my order without calling me on my cell. Even if it was as simple as pellets instead of whole hops, they call first to make sure.

The one time they called and couldn't reach me...they upgraded the substitute (Glacier plugs since they were out of whole).
 
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Jesse17

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Jesse17 said:
This what's suppose to be in the NB kit:
0.50 lbs. Victory Malt
0.50 lbs. Briess Caramel 60
1 lb. Pilsen DME (boil for 60 min.)
6 lbs. Munich Malt Syrup (boil for 15 min.)
1 oz. Willamette (60 min)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (15 min)
Wyeast #1792 Fat Tire Ale Yeast

I have .5 oz. of Hersbrucker left from another kit. Mt. Hood and Hersbrucker are listed as substitutions for each other (in fact the Hersbrucker I have is left over from an AHB Fat Tire kit)

So what I am thinking is I'll use the .5 oz. of Summit (60 min) that NB sent for the bittering hops, and add the .5 oz. Hersbrucker that I already have to replace the 1 oz. of Mt. Hood.

Since the Summit will replace the bittering, and I only have .5 oz of Hersbrucker I was thinking that I should add it at 5 min. or even dry hop it. What would y'all recommend?
I'll have to check out Midwest next time. Any comments on the above hop schedule?
 
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