When to add sparge water acid

[JohnK93]

Hello all,

I'm looking for some clarification on when to add the lactic acid called out in the Sparge addition in cell L31 in the Brun Water 1.18 Water Adjustment tab.

I brewed a batch of NEIPA on Saturday and adjusted the water using gypsum, CaCl2, and lactic acid in the mash, per the spreadsheet. I then added the Sparge additions of gypsum and CaCl2 to the boil, as I usually do. I also usually add the lactic acid in the Sparge addition directly to the boil kettle, but convinced myself that I didn't need to add the 3.3mL lactic acid (indicated by Brun Water) this time. Now I'm wondering if the final pH of the beer will be noticeably off.

I thought I had a conversation with Martin about this, but couldn't dig it up. When do you add the Sparge acid, or do you need to add it at all?

Thanks,
John

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sparge water acid needs to go in the sparge water BEFORE sparging.

You need to neutralize sparge water alkalinity or you risk extracting badness from the grain if the pH and temperature get too high.

 

[JohnK93]

That makes sense if I'm adding salts to the sparge water, but I add them directly to the boil kettle after sparging. I wouldn't think the acid would be needed to neutralize the sparge water unless the pH of my water is naturally high (the last time I had it tested, the measured pH was 8.0)

This is what was going through my mind at the time, anyway.

-John

 

[RPh_Guy]

Water pH is irrelevant and has no effect.

The alkalinity is what matters, and affects the mash/sparge pH.

This may be counterintuitive, but it's true.

 

[BeerFst]

8 is high. sparge water should be <6 IIRC, the salts and the acid will both be bringing that down. You would need extra acid if you didnt add the salts to the sparge water. But i would assume doing that would mess with final pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

That makes sense if I'm adding salts to the sparge water, but I add them directly to the boil kettle after sparging. I wouldn't think the acid would be needed to neutralize the sparge water unless the pH of my water is naturally high (the last time I had it tested, the measured pH was 8.0)

This is what was going through my mind at the time, anyway.

-John

The alkalinity of the sparge water is what acidification is mainly addressing. Not the pH. For example, my well water is pH 7.2, but it also has 436 ppm of alkalinity.

To bring HCO3- to zero requires acidification to a pH of 4.3. Acidification to pH 5.4 eliminates about 91% of HCO3-, and this is considered sufficient, and is also conveniently commensurate with the most common mash pH target.

 

[JohnK93]

OK, that makes sense. My water alkalinity is 116ppm at last testing, but I don't have any sense for how high this is. So does the Sparge water acid addition listed in Brun Water assume that I'm adding the salts to the sparge water, or does this even matter? Should I just add the 3.3mL acid it says to add to my sparge water? I don't yet have a pH meter to verify the Brun Water calculations, and don't' really understand all the science yet, so I'm flying a little blind here (and I'm more worried about my water profile changing than the accuracy of the spreadsheet.)

I was also going off a BeerSmith article talking about differing thoughts on when sparging additions should be added (in the sparge water, in the kettle, etc.,) but obviously I have a lot to learn here...appreciate the responses.

-John

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yes, just add the acid to the sparge water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I'm sure there are compelling reasons to treat sparge water rather than use untreated reverse osmosis or distilled water for sparging, which is what I do.

 

[JohnK93]

Yes, just add the acid to the sparge water.

Yeah, this is what I've done in the past, but for some reason decided not to this batch. Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Yeah, this is what I've done in the past, but for some reason decided not to this batch. Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

I prepare my brewing water the night before brew day @JohnK93. It takes time for brewing water to reach an equilibrium after adding salts and acid.

 

[JohnK93]

I prepare my brewing water the night before brew day @JohnK93. It takes time for brewing water to reach an equilibrium after adding salts and acid.

That's smart...I measure the strike water the night before. I thought the salts would dissolve better in warmer water, but I just learned that salts should not be added to the hot water, so maybe next time I'll add the night before too.

 

[eric19312]

You treat sparge water in order to avoid having your final runnings become too basic and extracting tannins. The number in my head says when fly sparging you want to keep your final runnings not lower than SG 1.010 and pH of the final runnings should not go higher than 5.8.

These are only issues with fly sparging, I don't think it is possible to get such low gravity in batch sparge or BIAB scenarios. Even with fly sparging it is mainly a concern when making light colored low gravity beers.

Do you know the pH and gravity of your final runnings? Even if you did my bet is your beer will be fine.

As for worrying about the pH of the final beer I don't think you will have any problems with its pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Yeah, this is what I've done in the past, but for some reason decided not to this batch. Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

I've gone over to no-sparge, but when I sparged, I added minerals to the sparge water (sans for alkalizing minerals). I can't imagine that the difference between this and adding the same portion of them to the boil kettle would be all that significant.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It takes time for brewing water to reach an equilibrium after adding salts and acid.

Time, as in, about a minute, with stirring?

 

[JohnK93]

Do you know the pH and gravity of your final runnings? As for worrying about the pH of the final beer I don't think you will have any problems with its pH.

No, I've kind of stopped taking so many readings during the mash and sparge, as I never really had an issue with gravity of the final runnings. I don't have a pH meter and the strips are useless, so this is one area where I'm just trusting the spreadsheets (although I'm sure that my water profile has changed since I had it tested a few years ago.)

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Time, as in, about a minute, with stirring?

I would think twenty minutes or so after making additions. Overnight works for me. Having brewing water ready the next morning means a shorter brew day.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I would think twenty minutes or so after making additions. Overnight works for me. Having brewing water ready the next morning means a shorter brew day.

Once they are fully dissolved (I.E., dissociated) you are good to go. Could happen in a minute or less with stirring. Sometimes I add my minerals just before doughing in.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Do you add salts to the sparge water or directly to the kettle?

Either. They aren't needed in the sparge water.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Once they are fully dissolved (I.E., dissociated) you are good to go. Could happen in a minute or less with stirring. Sometimes I add my minerals just before doughing in.

Calcium chloride takes me a good ten minutes to dissolve with stirring. Epsom Salt dissolves nearly instantly.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sparge additions are just that, sparge.

Adding salts or acid to the kettle is certainly also a thing that can be done, but it doesn't interact with mash/sparge pH the same way. Few homebrewers venture into altering boil kettle pH, though a minority of homebrewers (and good number of pros) do.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Calcium chloride takes me a good ten minutes to dissolve with stirring. Epsom Salt dissolves nearly instantly.

Is that for ~70 degree F. water, or for 160+ degree F. water? If you add minerals to strike water at ~160+ degrees F. (or higher) prior to doughing in, the minerals should dissolve far more readily than for 70 degree water. I usually add about 175 degree F. water to my mash cooler, and then while this water is simultaneously warming up the cooler and falling to my chosen ~160 degree or so dough-in temperature, I add minerals to it and stir to dissolve them.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Well two weeks ago my tap water was 55F as it left the RO filter. It was under 70F when I treated the water. I transferred the treated water to the kettle and raised it to 149F for dough in.

 

[JohnK93]

I've gone over to no-sparge, but when I sparged, I added minerals to the sparge water (sans for alkalizing minerals). I can't imagine that the difference between this and adding the same portion of them to the boil kettle would be all that significant.

How much lactic acid with distilled water on a Pilsner?

Silver_Is_Money, this is the thread I was referencing earlier, but after finding and re-reading, the difference is that at the time we were talking about brewing a pilsner and sparging with RO water, so the lactic acid was not needed in the sparge water. When I brewed this weekend, I was brewing with tap water, which is why I should have added acid to the sparge. Live and learn.

Best,
John

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

How much lactic acid with distilled water on a Pilsner?

Silver_Is_Money, this is the thread I was referencing earlier, but after finding and re-reading, the difference is that at the time we were talking about brewing a pilsner and sparging with RO water, so the lactic acid was not needed in the sparge water. When I brewed this weekend, I was brewing with tap water, which is why I should have added acid to the sparge. Live and learn.

Best,
John

There is basically no alkalinity in RO water so it'll readily adjust to whatever the alkalinity and pH of your mash is.

 

[ajdelange]

Epsom Salt dissolves nearly instantly.

It should. There's lots of water in it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm of the opinion that even if you are sparging with RO or distilled water it doesn't hurt to add 0.2 mL of 88% lactic acid, or 2 mL of 10% phosphoric acid to your sparge water. At best it delays or prevents end of run-off pH rise, and at worst it lowers the pH a smidgen before heading for the boil (which many would find to be a good thing).

 

[Brian66]

I'm using Brun' water for the first time with filtered tap water. I'll be making the rocky raccoon honey lager using BIAM. According to the spreadsheet I don't add anything to the mash water but I need to add some acid to the sparge water. For sparge I'm just heating the water and pouring over the grains. The amount of phosphoric acid to add to sparge is low - 1/2 tsp

What would be the reason for adding acid to the sparge and not the mash water?

edit to add - i'm doing small batches 2.5 gallons

this is my water profile
pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 216
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.36
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.8 / 2.9

ppm

Sodium, Na 27
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 25.8
Magnesium, Mg 3
Total Hardness, CaCO3 78
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 64
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 53
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Without full grist info and water analyticals and water volume details it would be hard to assess why no acid is required within the mash, but one can speculate that aggregate grist acidity combined with added (or perhaps already present) mineralization is adequate to overcome mash water Alkalinity, along with overcoming the mash pH impact of a higher than target mash pH base malt's pHDI, which inherently brings with it an effectively negative acidity with respect to mash pH target, and thereby achieve a mash at a pH within the acceptable target range.

The reason for sparge water acidification is to reduce sparge water Alkalinity sufficiently that final sparge run off does not rise above a maximum of ~pH 6. Sparge water acidified to about pH 5.5 generally satisfies this criteria. This is primarily done to avoid leaching tannins.

 

[mabrungard]

There could be conditions when the mash isn’t acidified, but the sparge is. A darker grist would be a case.

 

[BeerFst]

I'm using Brun' water for the first time with filtered tap water. I'll be making the rocky raccoon honey lager using BIAM. According to the spreadsheet I don't add anything to the mash water but I need to add some acid to the sparge water. For sparge I'm just heating the water and pouring over the grains. The amount of phosphoric acid to add to sparge is low - 1/2 tsp

What would be the reason for adding acid to the sparge and not the mash water?

edit to add - i'm doing small batches 2.5 gallons

this is my water profile
pH 7.8
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 216
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.36
Cations / Anions, me/L 2.8 / 2.9

ppm

Sodium, Na 27
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 25.8
Magnesium, Mg 3
Total Hardness, CaCO3 78
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 8
Chloride, Cl 49
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 64
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 53
Total Phosphorus, P < 0.01
Total Iron, Fe < 0.01

i think you have an error somewhere in your sheet. Assuming I found the correct recipe, it’s all Pilsner malt with a lot of honey added at flameout. My own water isn’t terribly different than yours (on Long Island) and a recent Pilsner I did required several ml of 88% lactic to get to 5.3. I don’t see how you don’t need any

also, not that it’s part of the problem or question here but make sure you apply the multipliers on the water input sheet based on how the values have been reported. For instance the s04-s needs to be multiplied by a factor to get the actual sulfate content. I missed this the first time I played with brunwater (thanks Martin). Wasn’t a huge impact numbers wise in the end, but at least I got rid of the anions/cations mismatch error

Edit: sorry silver didn’t mean to quote you in my reply

 

[Brian66]

BeerFst - that's the correct recipe. I make small batches so I cut that in half and also added vienna malt. So 3 lbs Pilsner, 1 lb Vienna. If I'm doing the spreadsheet correctly my mash ph should have been under 6 (5.98). I was a little afraid to add too much phosphoric acid. I did do the multipliers. Maybe because I'm doing a small batch I still came in under 6?

 

[BeerFst]

BeerFst - that's the correct recipe. I make small batches so I cut that in half and also added vienna malt. So 3 lbs Pilsner, 1 lb Vienna. If I'm doing the spreadsheet correctly my mash ph should have been under 6 (5.98). I was a little afraid to add too much phosphoric acid. I did do the multipliers. Maybe because I'm doing a small batch I still came in under 6?

Mash pH should be 5.3-5.5. The 6 noted earlier is just for sparge water. Are you using brunwater or something else? Brunwater makes the various goals very clear with color coded results

 

[Brian66]

It's Brunwater. I understand now - 6 just for sparge and mid 5's which is color coded. So when I put in 4 for the acid addition it puts the mash PH in the right range. That's 4ml per gallon so it would be 12 since I mash with 3 gallons. so about 2.5 tsp of phosphoric acid. Thanks for the help!

 

[BeerFst]

It's Brunwater. I understand now - 6 just for sparge and mid 5's which is color coded. So when I put in 4 for the acid addition it puts the mash PH in the right range. That's 4ml per gallon so it would be 12 since I mash with 3 gallons. so about 2.5 tsp of phosphoric acid. Thanks for the help!

FYI they little “syringes” for dosing kids pain meds are great for measuring 1-5ml. with two toddlers I have an abundance of them

 

[Brian66]

FYI they little “syringes” for dosing kids pain meds are great for measuring 1-5ml. with two toddlers I have an abundance of them

Thanks for the tip!

 

[eric19312]

i think you have an error somewhere in your sheet. Assuming I found the correct recipe, it’s all Pilsner malt with a lot of honey added at flameout. My own water isn’t terribly different than yours (on Long Island) and a recent Pilsner I did required several ml of 88% lactic to get to 5.3. I don’t see how you don’t need any

also, not that it’s part of the problem or question here but make sure you apply the multipliers on the water input sheet based on how the values have been reported. For instance the s04-s needs to be multiplied by a factor to get the actual sulfate content. I missed this the first time I played with brunwater (thanks Martin). Wasn’t a huge impact numbers wise in the end, but at least I got rid of the anions/cations mismatch error

Edit: sorry silver didn’t mean to quote you in my reply

Hey @BeerFst are you using the suffolk county water authority report or did you get your water tested? If using the water authority report what factors did you need to apply to get the correct treatment in Bru'n water?

 

[BeerFst]

Hey @BeerFst are you using the suffolk county water authority report or did you get your water tested? If using the water authority report what factors did you need to apply to get the correct treatment in Bru'n water?

I got mine tested with Ward Labs last year, but when I first started I did use the SCWA report. I'm in zone 1 and just used the average reported values. there is considerable range in some of them, but hundreds of tests taken, so I was comfortable with the averages. Also as it turned out they were very close to my actual report. Reviewing the spreadsheet now, version 1.18a (free version, this may not be the latest free version), there is a factor of 3 if S04 is reported as SO4-S, and another factor of 4.43 for Nitrate if reported as NO3-N. I know that Ward at least reports as SO4-S, but I don't recall that being a problem for SCWA. Then again, I missed the factors when I first input my ward report, so perhaps I did similarly back then, and was just ignorant.

For your reference, my current water report I use (with factors already applied)

Ca 26.9
Mg 4
Na 20
HCO3 67
CO3 .2
SO4 15
CL 28

K 1
FE 0
NO3 8
NO2 0
F 0

pH 7.9
Total Alkalinity 55

the average values from the SCWA report I was using before are

Ca 12.9
Mg 1.6
Na 7.4
HCO3 46.7
CO3 0
SO4 8.1
CL 17.4

K .6
FE 0.2
NO3 1.4
NO2 0
F 0

pH 7.2
Total Alkalinity 38.3

 

[eric19312]

Thanks I'm zone 14. Wow you really do have hundreds of tests our averages are based on 18 tests. I realized after I posted that zone 14 average SO4 is "not detected" so multiplier not an issue.

I appreciate the detail in the published water report especially the number of tests and the ranges. It looks like your actuals from the Ward report fall in the ranges reported for zone 1. I'm curious why you are using the Ward values given that is a single point in time test vs the water authority's hundreds of tests every year?

To me the dilemma is we have really pretty good average water for brewing just about any style of beer (with modest mineral additions) but occasionally (seasonally?) it might drift away from that average. Given good tap water I can't justify installing an RO system so am managing with campden (because Suffolk occasionally uses chlorine) and measuring pH with a meter. If my pH is a lot different than expected I might make an adjustment in the mash tun but I won't adjust the base recipe unless same recipe misses the target multiple times.

I've also considered getting one of those kits from Lamott or Smart Brew to allow brew day water testing but they look pretty expensive and not sure I need another thing to add to my already pretty long brew day. I'm probably trying to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[BeerFst]

Thanks I'm zone 14. Wow you really do have hundreds of tests our averages are based on 18 tests. I realized after I posted that zone 14 average SO4 is "not detected" so multiplier not an issue.

I appreciate the detail in the published water report especially the number of tests and the ranges. It looks like your actuals from the Ward report fall in the ranges reported for zone 1. I'm curious why you are using the Ward values given that is a single point in time test vs the water authority's hundreds of tests every year?

To me the dilemma is we have really pretty good average water for brewing just about any style of beer (with modest mineral additions) but occasionally (seasonally?) it might drift away from that average. Given good tap water I can't justify installing an RO system so am managing with campden (because Suffolk occasionally uses chlorine) and measuring pH with a meter. If my pH is a lot different than expected I might make an adjustment in the mash tun but I won't adjust the base recipe unless same recipe misses the target multiple times.

I've also considered getting one of those kits from Lamott or Smart Brew to allow brew day water testing but they look pretty expensive and not sure I need another thing to add to my already pretty long brew day. I'm probably trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Yes, relying on my one test is a risk, and I could send out multiple samples over the course of the year, but in the end I haven't found that necessary. If i was seeing lots of variability in my beers, or some unsolved "issue" i might point to the water. I drink tap regularly and go by the "if it taste's good, it's good" mentality. I too, add Campden, but do not actually validate my mash pH. I fully understand that without doing so, may not mean my pH targets in the spreadsheet are correct. I do see some variation in my efficiency, with several previous brews undershooting target. more than a year ago i hit my max efficiency >80%, but since then have been hovering around 70%. my recipes used to use 75% as a baseline, but now i have dropped to 70%. However I got over 70 on a stout last week. In any case, a new report might be warranted, but considering the difference between my actual tap water, and the SCWA report, however small, I would rather use the data specific to my tap.