When do you guys first sample your sour?

[worlddivides]

Just interested. My sour has been souring in secondary for about a month and a half now, and since I'm pretty sure it won't be ready to bottle until after about 6 months or more of souring, I haven't sampled it yet. Also, partially because I don't want to expose oxygen to it. I guess that wouldn't be problem if you were aging something in a vessel with a spigot (which I am not), though.

I imagine this is different for each and every one of you guys, especially since I've heard that some sours start exhibiting sour characteristics immediately while others take several months before they even start tasting sour?

So, how long you usually wait before first sampling your sour? And why?

 

[burninator]

Depends on the beer and what kind of complexity I expect from it. I have a gose and a table sour that have been fermenting almost 6 weeks, and I'm already planning to sample and, hopefully, bottle.

On the other hand, I have a sour red that's been in the carboy a little over 4 months, and it'll be another couple of months before I consider opening it to take a sample, I think.

 

[worlddivides]

Interesting. I'm not exactly sure what mine would be classified as. Probably closest to a lambic since it's a basic barley base with maybe 30% wheat, very lowly hopped, and just using White Labs's Belgian sour mix (as well as a few other elements).

It's at about 7 weeks now, and I haven't opened it yet. Probably will take longer than a gose or Berliner Weisse to be ready, but I'm just wondering how long I should wait before sampling it (both gravity and taste).

 

[secondbase]

I usually sample at about 3-4 months for long term mixed fermentations. At that point, I'll usually top it up too.

 

[burninator]

What was your starting gravity?

 

[worlddivides]

What was your starting gravity?

1.065

And then it was 1.012 when I moved it to secondary.

The starting gravity was way higher than I expected (I was hoping for closer to 1.058 or so) and the "final" gravity was a lot lower (I was hoping for around 1.019 and used an English yeast with very low attenuation). I seem to consistently have problems with my efficiency being way higher than I want (referring to attenuation, as well)

 

[LakesideBrewing]

I'm probably in the minority, but I mostly wait until the one year mark before I sample. I have a huge 'sour pipeline' and use time to my advantage. I'm primarily only brewing (p)lambic style beer with massive biodiversity, tons of bugs, and slightly cooler than normal temps. So, your mileage may vary.

 

[secondbase]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but if you used a commercial pitch of bugs or a blend you probably won't have the sourness or complexity you're after at six months. I find the bugs will go 70% of the way there in about 6 months, then take their sweet time finishing up that last 30%. Get some more sours going in the meantime if you've got the space. You're going to want more on the way once this one is ready to be bottled.

 

[worlddivides]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but if you used a commercial pitch of bugs or a blend you probably won't have the sourness or complexity you're after at six months. I find the bugs will go 70% of the way there in about 6 months, then take their sweet time finishing up that last 30%. Get some more sours going in the meantime if you've got the space. You're going to want more on the way once this one is ready to be bottled.

Unfortunately I don't have the space -- or the fermenters. Granted, fermenters aren't expensive, so if I did have the space, I'd just buy more fermenters, but I really don't have room for more than 1 batch of sour beer. I live in the Bay Area where rent for a small apartment is astronomically expensive (I pay $2300 a month for a two bedroom apartment, which people around here say is "cheap"). If I was living in most other parts of the country, I'd probably be living in a four or five bedroom house with a basement, and I'd be able to have six or more sours going on at the same time. Not possible here, though.

I've heard that bottle dregs can help speed up souring and add more complexity, so I'm thinking of adding dregs from two or three bottles of some of my favorite American sours... maybe in a month, since I don't want to expose the beer to oxygen yet. I've heard of people adding dregs from European sours, but how is that possible? I would imagine that legally beers from other countries/other continents would have to be pasteurized before they could be shipped over. If somehow the bacteria and yeast in Belgian beers is still viable here in the states, I might try adding some dregs from Cantillon or Rodenbach.

 

[secondbase]

I get you, man. I'm from the bay area originally. Definitely enjoying the space out here in TN.

Dregs are a great way to speed up the process. Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River and Crooked Stave dregs are particularly aggressive so if you have access to any of those, I'd toss 'em in. The sooner the better if space and time are limited. There are many unpasteurized sours (including Cantillon!) but Rodenbach is pasteurized so you probably won't get anything viable from those dregs. You can toss them right in the fermentor as you drink them. Make a night of it! Cheers

 

[worlddivides]

I get you, man. I'm from the bay area originally. Definitely enjoying the space out here in TN.

Dregs are a great way to speed up the process. Jolly Pumpkin, Russian River and Crooked Stave dregs are particularly aggressive so if you have access to any of those, I'd toss 'em in. The sooner the better if space and time are limited. There are many unpasteurized sours (including Cantillon!) but Rodenbach is pasteurized so you probably won't get anything viable from those dregs. You can toss them right in the fermentor as you drink them. Make a night of it! Cheers

My best friend had his wedding in Tennessee (I'm originally from Michigan and he's originally from Ohio), and we were able to rent this huge place for pretty cheap. Had an awesome time there.

Thanks for the advice. Sorry to hear the Rodenbach is pasteurized (I love the way most of their beers taste), but it's good to hear that Cantillon isn't.

I do have access to Russian River and Crooked Stave, but no access to Jolly Pumpkin, unfortunately.

Another I'd consider is La Folie by New Belgium. That's a pretty tasty beer, and I'd imagine it's unpasteurized (hopefully).

 

[burninator]

Another I'd consider is La Folie by New Belgium. That's a pretty tasty beer, and I'd imagine it's unpasteurized (hopefully).

Sorry to report that New Belgium pasteurizes.

There's a really nice list on The Mad Fermentationist's blog of beers that have viable dregs.

 

[worlddivides]

Thanks. I checked out the list. They even had a very small list at the bottom that had some prominent sour beers that don't have Brett or bacteria (via pasteurization) and "La Folie" was on the list.

 

[Agate]

The original la folie with cork and caged bottles was not pasteurized. Since around 2011 or so, the newer releases have been pasteurized.

 

[worlddivides]

The original la folie with cork and caged bottles was not pasteurized. Since around 2011 or so, the newer releases have been pasteurized.

I understand why they do it, but it really sucks since La Folie is such an awesome sour beer, I'd love to get access to the microbes they use.

 

[worlddivides]

So, since it was late and a Sunday, I went to the closer beer store. It didn't have any Russian River, Crooked Stave, or Jolly Pumpkin (though I've never seen any bottles by Jolly Pumpkin anywhere in California), but I did buy some bottles by Almanac, Modern Times, and Allagash.

I ended up finally opening up my carboy, taking a sample, testing the gravity, and tasting it. When I moved it to secondary before adding the sour microbes, it was at 1.012, but today it was at 1.006, which was actually lower than several of the sour beers that I bought today. Hah. Although the flavor wasn't bracingly sour, it was more sour than I expected it would be. After that, I added the bottle dregs from two bottles of Almanac (different sour beers - one all Brett and one a mix of Brett and bacteria) and Modern Times (Brett and Lacto, I think). I plan to go further away and find some Russian River and Crooked Stave bottles within the next few weeks and add bottle dregs from them.

Overall, I don't think there has been enough time for the red wine, Medium Plus toasted French oak, and pound of golden raisins to really add to the flavor of my beer, but it definitely has given my beer a color closer to a Flemish red, even though the grain bill of the original beer gave it a pretty light color to start off with. I would describe it now as very red. Not orange or brown-red, but... RED. Like the more red-colored Flemish reds. (Although I didn't actually add any actual red wine, I soaked 2 ounces of French oak cubes in red wine for 3-4 weeks before adding them to the beer in secondary).

Anyway, judging from how the beer tasted today, I have high hopes for its future.

 

[millsbrew]

If you are in SF then I would think you'd be able to get your hands on something from the Rare Barrel. I'd love to use some of their dregs. My plan of attack is 1 brett only dregs and 1 or 2 mixed dregs into each carboy for secondary and then wait 6 months for a sample. Though the heat wave around the northeast might accelerate that.

 

[passedpawn]

I've made several Flanders Reds. I think a little O2 is necessary after 2-3 months to encourage a little acetic acid production. My first one, I opened every week or two and there was too much vinegar. After that, I tasted first at about 6 wks, then once a month after that. That was the best one. I won't bulk age longer than a year though. Mine were best around 6 months, then they seemed to lose some of the dark cherry complexities. Not sure if bottling at that time would have maintained the flavor they had, but if I ever make a sour again I'll def bottle at 6 months. I burnt out big time on the sours

 

[worlddivides]

If you are in SF then I would think you'd be able to get your hands on something from the Rare Barrel. I'd love to use some of their dregs. My plan of attack is 1 brett only dregs and 1 or 2 mixed dregs into each carboy for secondary and then wait 6 months for a sample. Though the heat wave around the northeast might accelerate that.

I've been to the Rare Barrel a few times. It's about 30 minutes from where I live. Personally, though, I wouldn't want to add any of the bottle dregs from any of their beers. I've had maybe 5 different beers they make, but they are all extremely high on acetic acid. I think the Rare Barrel, for me, falls into the category of "like it" but not "love it."

 

[messiah]

I sample when curiosity gets the best of me.

I did two different ECY brews. 01 and 20. The first batches were both were a little fruity and funky, even a little tart, but not really sour per say. I didn't sample them until near 6 months out. Bottled way later than that, and not much changed during the extra time.

I have been reusing the cakes, and one keeps producing the same beer while the last time I used the other, there were tiny bubbles going on for about 3 months. It looked sparkling if light hit the carboy just right. After it stopped for a while, I tasted it. Very sour, but a bit acetic and abrasive.

 

[fredthecat]

as i drain pour it because i got an infected beer (this is theoretical as my beer doesnt become infected)