When do you adjust ph during the mash?

[westchesterBrewer]

I want to further my all grain chops by getting into ph and adjusting it if necessary. However, I am confused as to when/how you adjust the mash.

Say I do my 60 minute mash, take a ph reading and the mash is too alkaline or acidic for the profile of that kind of beer. Is this the point where I take the different salts and add them to the mash, re-stir the mash and take another reading? Repeat until the ph is correct?

Or, do you want your water profile to be correct BEFORE adding your strike water to the mash?

Thanks!

 

[Ridire]

I am wondering the same thing. I just bought a PH meter and I am not sure if the idea is to ensure you added the right things pre-mash so you can fix it next time or if the idea is to add something to the mash when you discover that there is a problem.

Up to now, I have used Bru'n Water and just hoped it was right about the mash PH for my given grain bill.

 

[mgortel]

You want to make your adjustment at the beginning of the mash. Brun Water is pretty darn accurate if your starting point for your water is accurate. Mash in ....wait maybe 5 mins and take a sample (make sure you have stirred the mash tun well....not like a crazy maniac....just a nice even stirring)....cool the sample to room temperature (70F) and then check the pH of sample. Then you make adjustments if needed. If you do it after the mash completes it is too late.....pH needs to be correct at beginning of mash.

Check out Brun Water website for excellent information on water treatment etc.

 

[hophop]

I take mine after a minute or two, just after my stirring is complete. A lot of conversion happens quickly, so I try and get mine set as soon as possible. I usually add a bit of lactic acid to my strike water before the grains are dumped in. I know how much I need and it usually gets me to about 5.7-6.2 to start with. Then I adjust as necessary. I've also checked my ph at 15 minute intervals and it stated consistent throughout the 60 minute mash.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Bryceefisher]

I would agree with what everyone else said. Adjust your water with brunwater and you should have no problems. Check mash pH ASAP, and adjust if necessary. Get a good meter and always test at room temp. The mash pH will steadily rise throughout the mash so keep that in mind.

 

[Hello]

Good question OP. I was wondering as well. Looks like I need to have a little laptop handy with me to use and update spreadsheets on the fly.

 

[mabrungard]

Since the enzymatic reactions are influenced by the mash pH, it is best to have a single and consistent pH. That is an important reason that you should conduct all your mineral and acid additions on the mashing water before you dough in. That way you can be reasonably assured that the minerals and acid will be fully distributed in the water and then well distributed in the mash. Adding minerals or acids to the mash and trying to get them mixed in well has been proven to be very difficult.

In some respects, you are better off calculating and adding a set of minerals and acid and then observing the resulting mash and wort pH and NOT applying any corrective additions when the pH is within a tenth or two of the target. You then use that experience to adjust your additions slightly when you next make that beer.

 

[mgortel]

Good point Martin....of course!

Related question...using Brun Water.

For mash acidification it is set up to only allow for mL/gal (i.e. liquid acids).
Is there a reason not to use powdered form acid like citric for the mash?

I have an acid mix and citric acid (powder forms) and am brewing Biermunchers Centennial Blonde and need to add acid to get mash pH lower.

Any advice on how to calculate using the acids I have on hand...? Or do I need liquid form?

 

[Spartan1979]

In some respects, you are better off calculating and adding a set of minerals and acid and then observing the resulting mash and wort pH and NOT applying any corrective additions when the pH is within a tenth or two of the target. You then use that experience to adjust your additions slightly when you next make that beer.

I don't make any adjustments after mashing in. I wait 15 minutes to take a reading and I figure by then it's really too late to do anything. But I use a calculator beforehand and I'm always in the ballpark (and I consistently get a lower number than I calculate).

 

[Ridire]

I don't make any adjustments after mashing in. I wait 15 minutes to take a reading and I figure by then it's really too late to do anything. But I use a calculator beforehand and I'm always in the ballpark (and I consistently get a lower number than I calculate).

You guys are saying what I suspected. It seems like the pH measuring is really something you do to make sure your future brews are coming in where you want them. Once you add the grain to the water, it is really too late to do anything meaningful for this batch. At least that is what I am taking away from this.

 

[user 141939]

I will in the near future be getting a pH meter. My thinking was to use the info for future reference. I use brun water and from what I've read so far really its more for a confirmation, since people say it gets them pretty close. I for some reason don't put a ton of trust into my water report. It comes from the city and is tested once a year and I just wonder how accurate it really is. Perhaps it's because I worked in the environmental chemistry field so I know a bit about this sort if water testing.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[mgortel]

You can send a sample of your water off to Ward Laboratories....it has gotten more costly than the last time I sent in a sample maybe a year or so ago....I think it used to be around $22....here is link:

https://producers.wardlab.com/BrewersKitOrder.aspx


Your water can vary throughout the year however.....I had (2) reports about 6-8 months apart and the alkalinity was quite a bit different on the 2 reports.

So I bought a GH/KH test kit for testing aquarium water....from the local pet shop. I like to test my alkalinity (which is the KH test in the kit)....with the actual water I am using on brew day. THe test is not exact but will get you pretty close to confirm you are in the right ballpark.....so I think it is accurate enough.

 

[Matt3989]

I will in the near future be getting a pH meter. My thinking was to use the info for future reference. I use brun water and from what I've read so far really its more for a confirmation, since people say it gets them pretty close. I for some reason don't put a ton of trust into my water report. It comes from the city and is tested once a year and I just wonder how accurate it really is. Perhaps it's because I worked in the environmental chemistry field so I know a bit about this sort if water testing.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

Depending on your city's water source, it can be pretty consistent, or wildly variable. Typically the bigger the city the more consistent. I work for an engineering consultant firm, and we do quite a bit of work for water companies. Some use huge RO plants, then add everything back in (those are pretty consistent, the only variable being the s*** picked up from the 100 year old cast iron pipes), other cities use multiple wells or reservoirs, and the water can be completely different from one side of town to the other, or even from daytime hours to peak hours.

Anyway, if you're concerned, or your pH is coming in at something other than what the water report says, Ward Labs has a reasonably priced mail-in brewing water report.

 

[mabrungard]

For mash acidification it is set up to only allow for mL/gal (i.e. liquid acids).
Is there a reason not to use powdered form acid like citric for the mash?

I have an acid mix and citric acid (powder forms) and am brewing Biermunchers Centennial Blonde and need to add acid to get mash pH lower.

Any advice on how to calculate using the acids I have on hand...? Or do I need liquid form?

Bru'n Water is set up to include a few solid acids: citric, tartaric, and malic. The calculations automatically account for the solid acid use for those types. I caution against using much of any of those acids since they are flavorful!

+1 to those of you using aquarium test kits to double check your water supply's current calcium and alkalinity values. When you have to deal with a variable supply, this will help a LOT! As far as accuracy, those kits can easily tell you to within 10 ppm. That should be close enough.

 

[user 141939]

I know all my water comes from one lake and is very soft. But i don't know much about how its treated. Thanks i will look into getting an aquarium test kit and maybe send a sample to ward labs. Although, with a price that low i wonder how accurate they are. (I guess I just don't have much faith in humanity ):


For example, at the lab i worked at, having your water tested for all the stuff you would need to know would be around $100 or more. I suppose one could ask them what they use to test the water with.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[mabrungard]

If you are performing tens or hundreds of those water tests per day, its probably pretty easy to knock out a bunch of tests for a very reasonable rate. I generally trust the results I've seen from Ward.

For the typical environmental lab, they are dealing more with GC's and mass spec's and can hardly be bothered with this simple water quality testing. They charge accordingly.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

I was told that if it's below 5.2, the ph stabilizer will raise it and if it's above 5.2, it will lower it.

 

[mtnagel]

I was told that if it's below 5.2, the ph stabilizer will raise it and if it's above 5.2, it will lower it.

That's what it's supposed to do, but it doesn't always work.

 

[Matt3989]

I was told that if it's below 5.2, the ph stabilizer will raise it and if it's above 5.2, it will lower it.

Not to mention that it's adding way more salts to the mash than necessar to create that buffer, which will affect taste.

Basically it's like a one size fits all suit, compared to a tailored suit.

 

[user 141939]

If you are performing tens or hundreds of those water tests per day, its probably pretty easy to knock out a bunch of tests for a very reasonable rate. I generally trust the results I've seen from Ward.

For the typical environmental lab, they are dealing more with GC's and mass spec's and can hardly be bothered with this simple water quality testing. They charge accordingly.

Its a good point. The organics testing was the money maker. The only reason we did the other tests was because it was a full service lab.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[youngdh]

I've started using 50/50 DI and dechlor'ed tap water which I check pH, GH, and KH with the aquarium titration kits. I plug the numbers into Brewersfriend.com adv water chem tool. I use potassium chloride and 10% phos acid solution added to mash. I never invested in a pH meter and you can't really check mash pH with titration kit due to amber mash water, so, I just "let the pH settle where it will". My mash efficiencies improved from low 60% to upper 70%. My finished beer has a much smoother mouth feel and no astringency like I had prior to water treatment.

Bottom line, you can add your water treatment to mash at beginning. Heck you could probably add to middle of mash and extend your mash times if needed following an SG check.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew