When do I add my Cane Sugar to My Belgian Golden?

[RLinNH]

Brewing a Belgian Golden Strong Ale today, and I just realized that I have no idea when to add my Cane Sugar. Is it during the boil? Has to be as it would be used as an extract, right? I am going with a 90 minute Boil for this recipe, if that matters...

 

[Jaysus]

you can add at 10, 5, or flame out... doesn't really matter - just make sure you stir it in well if you add it during the boil so it does not collect at the bottom and burn.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I would add it sometime in the last 15 minutes of the boil. That's typically when I add all simple sugars.

How much are you adding?

 

[RLinNH]

I would add it sometime in the last 15 minutes of the boil. That's typically when I add all simple sugars.

How much are you adding?

The recipe from "Brewing Classic Styles" is on page 242. It calls for 3 Lbs.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

The recipe from "Brewing Classic Styles" is on page 242. It calls for 3 Lbs.

WHOA! 3 pounds? Man that's a lot of table sugar. I know that this style is supposed to finish dry and all but that still seems like a lot to me. But who am I to question the great JZ?

I did find a past thread on this same topic that might help you:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=52913

 

[RLinNH]

WHOA! 3 pounds? Man that's a lot of table sugar. I know that this style is supposed to finish dry and all but that still seems like a lot to me. But who am I to question the great JZ?

I did find a past thread on this same topic that might help you:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=52913

Also, he states to bring the Fermentation temps up to 82 Degrees!!! Outta be interesting to see how this one turns out.

 

[Beerrific]

I think the recipes in that book assume you add the sugar at the beginning of the boil.

It really doesn't matter except that you hop utilization will change slightly and there are more sugars to possible caramelize.

 

[cubbies]

you can add at 10, 5, or flame out... doesn't really matter - just make sure you stir it in well if you add it during the boil so it does not collect at the bottom and burn.

I disgree, especially about the flameout part. You want to "invert" your sugar so that the sucrose (hard for the yeast to ferment) breaks down into simpler glucose and fructose (easy for the yeast to ferment). To do this, you need time, heat, and an acidic environment. Luckily, boiling wort is already hot and acidic, so adding a little time is all you need. 15 minutes is the practice I use.

 

[DeathBrewer]

whenever...you could add it a week into primary if you want

 

[Cugel]

I just made the same JZ recipe last week, added the sugar in for 60 minutes. You can add later, before, at or after flameout but be aware that this will increase hop utilization which you need to adjust for. Use software to make the adjustments.

Good luck!

 

[RLinNH]

I just made the same JZ recipe last week, added the sugar in for 60 minutes. You can add later, before, at or after flameout but be aware that this will increase hop utilization which you need to adjust for. Use software to make the adjustments.

Good luck!

60 Minutes it is.

 

[Erlendso]

Unless you want Belgian Cider, make "Invert sugar" before you add it to your brew!! Under no circumstances should white sugar be used in these amounts.

This guy explains pretty well: http://homebrewinghobby.blogspot.com/2007/04/making-invert-and-belgian-candi-sugar.html

 

[FlyGuy]

I disgree, especially about the flameout part. You want to "invert" your sugar so that the sucrose (hard for the yeast to ferment) breaks down into simpler glucose and fructose (easy for the yeast to ferment). To do this, you need time, heat, and an acidic environment. Luckily, boiling wort is already hot and acidic, so adding a little time is all you need. 15 minutes is the practice I use.

It was my understanding that yeast utilize an extracellular enzyme called invertase to hydrolyze sucrose into its monosaccharide constituents. I don't recall ever reading that sucrose is 'difficult' for yeast to metabolize to sucrose. In fact, most books (e.g., Noonan, Fix) state that sucrose is highly fermentable. I am intrigued about why you make this statement?

Unless you want Belgian Cider, make "Invert sugar" before you add it to your brew!! Under no circumstances should white sugar be used in these amounts.

In a strong Belgian-style beer, I wonder if any cider notes would be strong enough to be detected through the dominant phenolics and warm alcohols associated with a Belgan strong ale? I am not sure that adding table sugar is a universally bad idea. Besides, on a percentage of fermentables basis, three pounds may not actually be that much in this recipe.

 

[Beerrific]

Unless you want Belgian Cider, make "Invert sugar" before you add it to your brew!! Under no circumstances should white sugar be used in these amounts.

This guy explains pretty well: http://homebrewinghobby.blogspot.com/2007/04/making-invert-and-belgian-candi-sugar.html

It will be fine. The recipe the OP is making has been made before and the author of the recipe thinks making invert sugar is a waste of time.

Like FlyGuy said, yeast naturally produce invertase and will even ferment the sucrose before any of the maltose. Using a a good amount of healthy yeast will prevent any cidery off flavors.

 

[Glibbidy]

Unless you want Belgian Cider, make "Invert sugar" before you add it to your brew!! Under no circumstances should white sugar be used in these amounts.

What a bunch of hoooey! While invert sugar may add complexities to the final product, regular old table sugar will work just fine.

IIRC for this style of beer the grist composition is typically up to 20% sugar.

 

[menschmaschine]

I thought I read somewhere (Brew Like a Monk?), that Duvel adds sugar at one or more points during fermentation and that is how they achieve such a high attenuation. Anyone know about that?

 

[cubbies]

It was my understanding that yeast utilize an extracellular enzyme called invertase to hydrolyze sucrose into its monosaccharide constituents. I don't recall ever reading that sucrose is 'difficult' for yeast to metabolize to sucrose. In fact, most books (e.g., Noonan, Fix) state that sucrose is highly fermentable. I am intrigued about why you make this statement?

I guess, "difficult" is probably not the proper term, maybe more difficult would be better. My understanding is, is that fermenting sucrose is more difficult for the yeast and can cause off flavors. That is where you get the dreaded "cider" flavor. However, glucose and fructose are easier for the yeast to munch on and should not cause off flavors.

 

[FlyGuy]

I guess, "difficult" is probably not the proper term, maybe more difficult would be better. My understanding is, is that fermenting sucrose is more difficult for the yeast and can cause off flavors. That is where you get the dreaded "cider" flavor. However, glucose and fructose are easier for the yeast to munch on and should not cause off flavors.

Yes, I see what you are saying. But it was my understanding that yeast will readily produce invertase to hydrolyze (invert) that sucrose on their own. As long as you have a good pitch of healthy yeast, this should never be a problem. In fact, yeast will preferentially metabolize sucrose before maltose, so logically, maltose is even MORE difficult to utilize than sucrose!

I think the concerns over cider-flavours are warranted. But at the same time, proper pitching rates and healthy yeast are going to almost entirely mitigate this concern, especially when the sugar addition is a small proportion of the recipe.

 

[cubbies]

I certainly don't disagree with that, but I think if you can invert the sugar yourself before hand you will be greatly reducing the risk of off flavors. Since completing this is as easy as throwing the sugar in 15 minutes earlier than you otherwise would, I don't see why someone would risk it.

I think there are a lot of things a brewer "could" do and get away with it, but most of them are not worth the risk. For me, and honestly I don't even make many Belgians, this is something that I wouldn't change in my brewery process as it is not worth it to me.

Of course, to each his own and whatever works for you works for you.

 

[Cugel]

Unless you want Belgian Cider, make "Invert sugar" before you add it to your brew!! Under no circumstances should white sugar be used in these amounts.

This guy explains pretty well: http://homebrewinghobby.blogspot.com/2007/04/making-invert-and-belgian-candi-sugar.html

have made fine belgians using bought candi sugar, home made candi, and plain white sugar (up to 30% fermentables). No problems with any of above methods.

have a look in Stan Hieronymous' book on brewing belgians and you'll see plain old white table sugar mentioned as a typical ingredient.

 

[Revvy]

I don't have BCS yet, but this thread's got me thinking I wanna brew up a Belgian Golden this weekend...What's Jamil's Recipe? I've been trolling through various recipes on here, and the rest of the internets, and find a lot of variations in what people are calling Belgian Strong Golden Ales...

 

[Glibbidy]

My BSGA is rock solid. I'll see about getting the recipe posted.

 

[Revvy]

My BSGA is rock solid. I'll see about getting the recipe posted.

Oh cool, thanks!

 

[Beer:30]

have made fine belgians using bought candi sugar, home made candi, and plain white sugar (up to 30% fermentables). No problems with any of above methods.

have a look in Stan Hieronymous' book on brewing belgians and you'll see plain old white table sugar mentioned as a typical ingredient.

I can vouch for this; I have made a half dozen strong Belgian Ales that have all used white table sugar and they are some of my favorites.

 

[Glibbidy]

OG-1.072 FG-1.014
Single Infusion Strike temp 151f
90 minute boil
Here is the jist of the grist.
Cane & Corn Sugar 10.00%
Malted Wheat 6.00%
Belgian Aromatic 5.00%
Pilsener 79.00%

And the hops...33 IBU's
Styrian Goldings 30 IBU's Kettle addition (10 minutes in)
Czech Saaz 1.5 Middle Addition (30 minutes left)
Styrian Goldings 1.5 Middle Addition (30 minutes left)
Styrian Goldings 1 oz at knockout

1/2 tab whirlfloc at T-15 minutes
Yeast- WLP 550
Fermented eleven days at 64f.

 

[DeathBrewer]

What a bunch of hoooey! While invert sugar may add complexities to the final product, regular old table sugar will work just fine.

IIRC for this style of beer the grist composition is typically up to 20% sugar.

invert sugar shouldn't add complexity to the brew...it's 100% fermentable! other sugars could add a slight bit of flavor but nothing to really worry about.

 

[cubbies]

invert sugar shouldn't add complexity to the brew...it's 100% fermentable! other sugars could add a slight bit of flavor but nothing to really worry about.

I disagree. I think that amber and dark candi sugar add some complexity. Plus they also add color. There is definitely a flavor associated with the darker candi sugars.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I disagree. I think that amber and dark candi sugar add some complexity. Plus they also add color. There is definitely a flavor associated with the darker candi sugars.

Agreed. Add Treacle/Black Treacle to the list as well.

 

[Revvy]

Agreed. Add Treacle/Black Treacle to the list as well.

I was reading about Llyle's Golden syrup today, and every website was using the exact sentence "Lightens body, without contributing flavor." (like they copied it from one site ad hoc....

Has anyone used it in their Belgians...I would think that it would add SOME flavor, since it's been carmalized.. It's not as dark a treacle, but there was some darlenning in the process....

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I was reading about Llyle's Golden syrup today, and every website was using the exact sentence "Lightens body, without contributing flavor." (like they copied it from one site ad hoc....

Has anyone used it in their Belgians...I would think that it would add SOME flavor, since it's been carmalized.. It's not as dark a treacle, but there was some darlenning in the process....

I haven't used Lyle's Golden Syrup in a while, but I believe that you're correct about it not contributing much as far as flavor.

Black Treacle, on the other hand, is some very aromatic and flavorful stuff (while still in the can).

Back to the OP - I have a recipe that I'll be brewing soon that's very smiliar to Glibbidy's. I'll be using 2# of table sugar (12.9%). Usually I would not recommend using table sugar at all, but there are a few styles that almost require it, and I believe that this is certainly one of them.

Did you end up adding all 3#, and when did you add it?

 

[DeathBrewer]

I disagree. I think that amber and dark candi sugar add some complexity. Plus they also add color. There is definitely a flavor associated with the darker candi sugars.

that's funny, i agree with you. i would also certainly distinguish between dark candi sugar (rock candy) and true invert sugar. i would also not put invert sugar in the same category as treacle.

 

[cubbies]

that's funny, i agree with you. i would also certainly distinguish between dark candi sugar (rock candy) and true invert sugar. i would also not put invert sugar in the same category as treacle.

I am confused. I thought candi sugar was inverted?

 

[DeathBrewer]

yes, but the carmelization doesn't happen with straight invert sugar. at least not with the ones i've seen made. that's where the dark candi sugar gets its color and flavor.

belgian candi sugar is just a big gimmick anyway. far too expensive. although i've been meaning to try the candi syrup for a while...i believe that is made from beets and imparts quite a bit more flavor. supposedly what they use in a great many of the beers in belgium.

 

[Glibbidy]

invert sugar shouldn't add complexity to the brew...it's 100% fermentable! other sugars could add a slight bit of flavor but nothing to really worry about.

I disagree. Last I checked invert sugar added sweetness, and aroma from the carmelization, and not to mention the signature rocky head.

I do however agree that buying Belgian Candy sugar is a gimmick.

 

[cubbies]

Well, i make whatever O'flannigan made. Whether it is Candi sugar, or invert sugar, or what have you. So I guess it is invert sugar that is then caramelized? I dont know, I think I am more confused after this thread than i was before it

 

[DeathBrewer]

if you want to generalize invert sugar than it is simply breaking down sucrose into glucose and fructose. so yes, candi sugar is a type of invert sugar.

i'm just saying the invert sugar i've used imparted zero flavor. i haven't used belgian candi sugar in quite some time.

EDIT: Glibbidy, I don't see how something so fermentable could add sweetness. unless you halt fermentation, those simple sugars will all be converted into alcohol.

 

[Glibbidy]

i'm just saying the invert sugar i've used imparted zero flavor. i haven't used belgian candi sugar in quite some time.

EDIT: Glibbidy, I don't see how something so fermentable could add sweetness. unless you halt fermentation, those simple sugars will all be converted into alcohol.

I guess that's the beauty of homebrewing. We all get some unique results.

 

[menschmaschine]

I re-read Brew Like a Monk last night. Duvel uses only Pilsner malt and dextrose (~17% of fermentables) in their recipe... and that's the rockiest head I've ever seen!

 

[DeathBrewer]

another myth of brewing...wheat, sugars and other adjuncts for head retention. while some of those things may help, proteins rests are more important IMO. I got an amazing, lacy perfect head on an all vienna beer i made.

 

[menschmaschine]

another myth of brewing...wheat, sugars and other adjuncts for head retention. while some of those things may help, proteins rests are more important IMO. I got an amazing, lacy perfect head on an all vienna beer i made.

+1...

to add to this, one needs to do the right protein rest for the malt based on the soluble nitrogen ratio of the malt. A protein rest at 120-ish for a malt with an SNR in the upper 30's to low 40's can actually reduce head retention. Most malts these days have SNRs in the upper 30's to low 40's, even continental Pilsner malts. A Protein/Saccharification rest in the low to mid 130s is better for malts like these. And for British malts, any protein-related rests are generally discouraged.

IIRC, a strong boil and fast cooling helps as well.