Wheat Substitute?

[VWBug5000]

After thinking I had a gluten allergy for the last few years, it turns out I am only allergic to wheat. Barley and Rye are totally good. Looking for suggestions on what I should substitute for wheat in a wheat based style (Witbeir, Hef's, Whites). Any ideas?

 

[Yooper]

After thinking I had a gluten allergy for the last few years, it turns out I am only allergic to wheat. Barley and Rye are totally good. Looking for suggestions on what I should substitute for wheat in a wheat based style (Witbeir, Hef's, Whites). Any ideas?

That's tough because wheat styles are only distinguished by a large percentage of wheat malt. A wit or a hefeweizen or any kind of weiss wouldn't be nearly the same without wheat. I don't know about the gluten free grains the GF brewers are using, like spelt, but I don't think you'd get anything much like a weiss beer with those either.

 

[dmtaylor]

Rye is great stuff. I use a ton of it. Great sub for wheat IMO.

 

[specharka]

That's tough because wheat styles are only distinguished by a large percentage of wheat malt. A wit or a hefeweizen or any kind of weiss wouldn't be nearly the same without wheat. I don't know about the gluten free grains the GF brewers are using, like spelt, but I don't think you'd get anything much like a weiss beer with those either.

Spelt is definitely not a gluten free grain. Barley, wheat, rye, triticale and spelt all contain gluten on some level.

OP, oats and rye are very versatile grains, but I can’t imagine replicating a wheat-based beer with them. You could try your hand at a German Roggenbier, which is basically a Dunkelweizen with rye instead of wheat. Definitely not the same as a Weissbier, but you can still get a similar pepper and clove expression. I’d be happy to share my recipe if you’re interested.

 

[bleme]

I wouldn't try spelt or triticale. They are too closely related to wheat so there is a good chance you are allergic to them also. Other grains to look at are oats, corn, rice, millet, buckwheat, sorghum, teff, quinoa, and amaranth. Since this is just for you, and not aiming to win any competition, I see no reason to stick with the rules for a Witbeir. I'd try them one-by-one. Make something new and see what you prefer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Triticale is a hybrid of rye and wheat. It has flavors reminiscent of both but overall quite different. Not as spicy as rye and possibly the closest to wheat you can get flavorwise, AFAIK.

As @specharka said, Triticale contains gluten, but if you're lucky, the protein (gluten) content is different enough not to give you any side effects. Perhaps worth a test?

If you use Triticale, it's typically unmalted, you'll need to treat it as an adjunct, it has no DP of course. The kernels are very small and narrow. You'll need to tighten your mill's gap significantly to crush them, the knurls should almost touch, so be careful they actually don't.

Although it doesn't taste all that similar to wheat, millett may be a decent substitute for wheat too, from what I gathered.
How about quinoa?

You really should scour the GlutenFree forum to see what possible substitutes there are.
Let me know if you want me to move the thread, so you'd possibly get valuable input from the GF experts there.

 

[corax]

That's tough because wheat styles are only distinguished by a large percentage of wheat malt. A wit or a hefeweizen or any kind of weiss wouldn't be nearly the same without wheat. I don't know about the gluten free grains the GF brewers are using, like spelt, but I don't think you'd get anything much like a weiss beer with those either.

A friend of mine took gold in a rather well-known competition with a "hefeweizen" brewed from 100% pilsner malt. I don't know whether this says more about the qualities of wheat malt or beer judges, but there it is.

 

[Yooper]

A friend of mine took gold in a rather well-known competition with a "hefeweizen" brewed from 100% pilsner malt. I don't know whether this says more about the qualities of wheat malt or beer judges, but there it is.

Hmmm, if you used 100% pilsner (a German malt, or the Briess Bonlander Munich malt), and 100% RO water and used a really flavorful hefeweizen yeast, you must get away with it- and it sounds like your friend nailed it!

That would be worth a try for sure. I didn't think of that, but that must be the best bet.

 

[IslandLizard]

A friend of mine took gold in a rather well-known competition with a "hefeweizen" brewed from 100% pilsner malt. I don't know whether this says more about the qualities of wheat malt or beer judges, but there it is.

The yeast certainly adds her signature, but I doubt even remotely enough to mimic a hefe.

Single entry, inexperienced judges, or perhaps they were

 

[Qhrumphf]

There's an old German style called Dampfbier that's akin to a wheatless Weißbier if I recall correctly.

 

[Miraculix]

Hmmm, if you used 100% pilsner (a German malt, or the Briess Bonlander Munich malt), and 100% RO water and used a really flavorful hefeweizen yeast, you must get away with it- and it sounds like your friend nailed it!

That would be worth a try for sure. I didn't think of that, but that must be the best bet.

Called Dampfbier (the original Steam Beer) and you should definitely try it. I'll bet everybody will ask for more of this delicious "Hefeweizen". The yeast makes the Hefeweizen

Edit: tool late

 

[Qhrumphf]

Well, more of a wheatless Dunkelweizen. Or whatever the obscure midpoint one who's name escapes me that GABF recognizes but BJCP doesn't.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hmmm, if you used 100% pilsner (a German malt, or the Briess Bonlander Munich malt), and 100% RO water and used a really flavorful hefeweizen yeast, you must get away with it- and it sounds like your friend nailed it!

That would be worth a try for sure. I didn't think of that, but that must be the best bet.

I'd definitely try this route, 100% pilsner malt and some rolled oats for cloudiness and head retention. Like others have said, in a hefe the esters and phenolics from hefe yeast provide most of the characteristic flavor.

 

[Miraculix]

Well, more of a wheatless Dunkelweizen. Or whatever the obscure midpoint one who's name escapes me that GABF recognizes but BJCP doesn't.

Why? It does not have to be dark. Very pale barley malts could be used.

@Jayjay1976

Oats do nothing to head retention. Too much oats even destroy it.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Why? It does not have to be dark. Very pale barley malts could be used.

Doesn't have to be, but every example I've seen/had (very few and predominantly homebrewed) or read about has been amber/copper color and quite malty.

However originally a Bavarian farmhouse style meaning pretty much anything goes.

 

[Yooper]

Doesn't have to be, but every example I've seen/had (very few and predominantly homebrewed) or read about has been amber/copper color and quite malty.

However originally a Bavarian farmhouse style meaning pretty much anything goes.

Yes, the ones I've had and seen are all pretty dark as well. Maybe it's the dark Munich malt that could be in them?

 

[corax]

Hmmm, if you used 100% pilsner (a German malt, or the Briess Bonlander Munich malt), and 100% RO water and used a really flavorful hefeweizen yeast, you must get away with it- and it sounds like your friend nailed it!

That is exactly what happened. Plus, it was a long time ago now, in an era where very few American brewers (pro or amateur) were doing step mashes or using authentic Bavarian yeast.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Bernsteinfarbenes Weizen. That's it. Basically means "amber weizen". GABF splits between Leicht (light, basically the traditional extra pale Hefe), Bernsteinfarbenes, and Dunkelweizen. As far as BJCP it seems like Dunkelweizen would cover the latter two, with the first being the pale end of Dunkelweizen.

Tangential for sure but it was bugging me so I looked it up.

 

[dmtaylor]

A friend of mine took gold in a rather well-known competition with a "hefeweizen" brewed from 100% pilsner malt. I don't know whether this says more about the qualities of wheat malt or beer judges, but there it is.

That style is truly all about the yeast. The grist is of secondary importance (or non-importance?!).

 

[ong]

You could try to test if you’re allergic to einkorn or emmer, which are the biological parents of modern wheats. They have similar flavors with different genetics, so it’s possible that one or both fail to trigger a histamine reaction.

 

[corax]

That style is truly all about the yeast. The grist is of secondary importance (or non-importance?!).

To a first approximation, I agree. I'd much rather drink a "wheat beer" made by a single infusion of 100% pale ale malt and fermented by an authentic Bavarian strain, than an impeccably step-mashed, 70% wheat malt beer fermented by a bland ale yeast.

But then you taste FRESH weissbier in Germany, and you see that it really is about both the yeast and the malt treatment. If you really want to nail it, you gotta have both.

 

[VWBug5000]

Wow, lots of great info! Thanks everyone!

Any idea what the substitution ratio for Wheat to Pilsner/Rye/Oats would be? I'm sure I'll need to experiment quite a bit on this, and I'm sure its very dependent on the specific style I'm going for.

@IslandLizard - I'd rather the topic stay here, I'm not allergic to gluten, only wheat, so I'd like to stay away from the more exotic substitutions that GF beers require. I have read that Millet is the go-to substitute for wheat though, and I may end up using it in a future batch at some point.

OP, oats and rye are very versatile grains, but I can’t imagine replicating a wheat-based beer with them. You could try your hand at a German Roggenbier, which is basically a Dunkelweizen with rye instead of wheat. Definitely not the same as a Weissbier, but you can still get a similar pepper and clove expression. I’d be happy to share my recipe if you’re interested.

I'd definitely try this route, 100% pilsner malt and some rolled oats for cloudiness and head retention. Like others have said, in a hefe the esters and phenolics from hefe yeast provide most of the characteristic flavor.

Sounds like Pilsner will contribute to the flavor and Oats will contribute to the mouth feel, while Rye does both? Is this correct? I haven't brewed much with Rye and haven't used oats in any of my recipes so far.

@spcharka - Would love your recipe for the Roggenbier! That sounds great! Thanks!

German style called Dampfbier that's akin to a wheatless Weißbier if I recall correctly.

Called Dampfbier (the original Steam Beer) and you should definitely try it. I'll bet everybody will ask for more of this delicious "Hefeweizen". The yeast makes the Hefeweizen

Dampfbier is now officially on my list of beers to make soon. Was born, raised and (until recently) lived in and near the SF Bay area. Anchor Steam is a staple in my household. If this is the 'Original Steam Beer', I'm sure it will be in constant rotation. Do either of you have good recipes for that (or links to ones you like)?

You could try to test if you’re allergic to einkorn or emmer, which are the biological parents of modern wheats. They have similar flavors with different genetics, so it’s possible that one or both fail to trigger a histamine reaction.

As @specharka said, Triticale contains gluten, but if you're lucky, the protein (gluten) content is different enough not to give you any side effects. Perhaps worth a test?

This sounds intriguing, I'll have to see if I can find any of these to experiment with. I know plant genetics change more dramatically when cross breeding than animal genetics, this may be enough to bypass a histamine reaction.

I'm sure swmbo is going to roll her eyes at me for experimenting with an allergy.
"Don't worry babe! I have plenty of Benadryl and I know where my epipen is!!"

 

[Jayjay1976]

Dampfbier is now officially on my list of beers to make soon. Was born, raised and (until recently) lived in and near the SF Bay area. Anchor Steam is a staple in my household. If this is the 'Original Steam Beer', I'm sure it will be in constant rotation. Do either of you have good recipes for that (or links to ones you like)?

I could be mistaken but I don't believe German dampfbier and San Francisco steam beer are the same; for one thing, the California version is a warm fermented lager while the German one is brewed with ale yeast. Either way, Wyeast 3638 is purported to throw more banana esters than 3068, which ferments a little cleaner.

Take my advice here with a grain of salt since I've only attempted this style three times so far and produced two bland batches and the third was scorched (don't ask), but IMHO you need as much help from the yeast as you can get to compensate for the lack of wheat in your grain bill. I would pitch cool, about 60-65, and let it free rise at room temp to get the most out of the yeast. I was stuck on using 3068 before because Weihenstephan was my favorite hefe when I lived in Germany, but I didn't get anywhere near the ester profile I expected. The other strain 3638 I think comes from Huber which is also delicious. My 4th attempt is in primary now, this time using 3638 instead of 3068, so far the aroma from the airlock smells promising.

 

[specharka]

Here you go:

OG 1.051, FG 1.013, 18.5 IBU, 16.4 SRM

50% Rye malt
30% Munich Light
15% Pilsner
2.5% Caramel rye
2.5% Chocolate rye
(10% rice hulls added as needed)

6 AAU German Tradition @ 60 min
2.3 AAU Styrian Goldings @ 5 min

Mash Schedule:
15 min @ 113F
60 min @ 152F
10 min @ 168F

White Labs “Hefeweizen IV” WLP380
Open ferment @ 62F for 5-7 days or until krausen dissipates. Then ramp to 70F and hold until fermentation ceases.

https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/2014366/rye-me-a-river

 

[Jayjay1976]

Here you go:

OG 1.051, FG 1.013, 18.5 IBU, 16.4 SRM

50% Rye malt
30% Munich Light
15% Pilsner
2.5% Caramel rye
2.5% Chocolate rye
(10% rice hulls added as needed)

6 AAU German Tradition @ 60 min
2.3 AAU Styrian Goldings @ 5 min

Mash Schedule:
15 min @ 113F
60 min @ 152F
10 min @ 168F

White Labs “Hefeweizen IV” WLP380
Open ferment @ 62F for 5-7 days or until krausen dissipates. Then ramp to 70F and hold until fermentation ceases.

https://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/2014366/rye-me-a-river

This recipe looks delicious, i think ill brew it this weekend. Thanks!

 

[VWBug5000]

I could be mistaken but I don't believe German dampfbier and San Francisco steam beer are the same; for one thing, the California version is a warm fermented lager while the German one is brewed with ale yeast. Either way, Wyeast 3638 is purported to throw more banana esters than 3068, which ferments a little cleaner.

Googled it and you are indeed correct, good sir! They sound the same if you translate the German name, but are completely different styles. Still, sounds like an awesome beer. Found a great write up. The author recommends Wyeast 3056.
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/dampfbier-gose-munster-altbier/

This recipe looks delicious, i think ill brew it this weekend. Thanks!

Agreed! Thanks @specharka! Going to try that one very soon as well!