I've noticed the same. The "session IPA" trend is one striking example of this.
What's up with all the big beers?
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I've noticed the same. The "session IPA" trend is one striking example of this.
troy2000
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Social engineering isn't an inherent and inevitable part of socialism. But I'll admit that once politicians have control of a country's means of production and distribution, they tend to take the habit of guidance and control to the next level...
Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it's just an annoying and unnecessary complication of daily life.
add: given the persistence of drinking throughout history in spite of any and all attempts to eradicate it, I'd have to question the claim that people don't 'need' to drink. The taste for booze seems to be hardwired into us, almost as deeply as the need for sex.... If you did a survey asking whether people would give up sex or drinking if they had to choose, the responses might not be overwhelmingly one-sided - especially among those past young adulthood.
hunter_le five
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gratus fermentatio
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If I couldn't drink, I would probably be in prison.
I'd probably be in the cell next door.
Regards, GF.
If you have a look at my Alcohol Politics thread, you'll see that Finland is actually very liberal regarding alcohol policy as compared to most of the US. The government does tax the daylight out of anything they consider a luxury, though.
One of the popular Finnish alcohols is "Salmiakki Koskenkorva", a salty liquorice infused vodka. It's 32% ABV and very sweet. It had been banned for about 5 years because it had gained fad status with teenagers.
Anyhow, we've sort of changed topic in this thread now! Maybe in the US, beer has become the new wine - high ABV, big bottles, bottle wax, elegant labels, people making online reviews using wine-review style language, beers that have 6 words in their name, etc. It all seems a bit pretentious to me :fro: I think I'll go to the store and buy some good Pils because mine isn't ready yet.
Epimetheus
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That seems about right.This is a competition and our "wieners" are bigger!!! jk
Although i think part of it is the challenge to make a high ABV beer. And pretentious? Yeah, definitely. Unless you are lucky enough to fall in with a table of brewers who seem to have the relaxed attitude "whatever it is, if you like it, drink it"
Mixing German beers: I read it is common to add sweet syrups to Weisse. In the 1960's my brother brought back from Germany the habit of Berliner Weisse and raspberry syrup as a special desert treat. It has a whole presentation: wide goblets decorated with stamps of German breweries, fill half way with Berliner Weisse, drizzle in raspberry syrup. I was about 12 years old and was allowed to have it - a big deal.
troy2000
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Again, I think you're overemphasizing the high-ABV beers; they're a small part of the picture. You're also exaggerating the part that the US plays in creating and publicizing them... here's a list of the world's 100 strongest beers. American beers don't even make the top ten. In fact, they're only a handful of the top thirty. It seems to be mostly the British and the Germans battling it out... the competition I see between American brewers lately isn't who can make the strongest beer, but who can make the hoppiest beer. We've gone from IPA's to triple IPA's, and there seems to be no end in sight.
Yes, I agree there's more hype and bs surrounding beer than there used to be, complete with reviewers having such remarkable taste buds that they can detect entire fruit and vegetable stands hidden in a beer that tastes like malt and hops to me.
On the other hand, any respectable restaurant I walk into these days has some decent craft beers available. That's a vast improvement over a few years ago, when the choice was pretty much Bud or Bud Light, Coors or Coors Light, etc. And the typical liquor store or corner market also has a much wider selection these days. So I'm not going to complain too much about the hype.
Which isn't restricted to beer, by the way. Have you seen the hype that's starting to surround bourbon? I've been happily drinking it my entire adult life, and only recently learned I'm not supposed to enjoy it unless I paid at least fifty or sixty bucks a bottle - and that apparently I should be saving up or taking out bank loans, so I can buy the really good stuff.
Whoops - forgot the link to the 100 strongest beers. http://www.beertutor.com/beers/index.php?t=highest_alcohol
The top 18 or more are not even beer. The only yeast that can natively hit anywhere close to 24% ABV is distiller's yeast and nobody would drink a beer made from that nasty stuff. Any yeast that produces something which is actually drinkable will top out at about 18% ABV. Most of those on that list have been frozen to remove some of the water content. That can't anymore be defined as beer, at least not in my book. Just like if I simmer a pan full of orange juice for an hour, then it's no longer juice but something thick enough that I can use to paint my duck before popping it into the oven. Or shall I rebottle it and sell it as juice?
Beers hitting high ABV by incrementally feeding champagne yeast? Yeah, it has definitely gone overboard.
troy2000
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Let me repeat my original point: you're mocking the US because of some my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours obsession with 'big' beers you claim it has developed. But I happen to live here, and I haven't seen it. Big beers are just one small part of a growing appreciation for craft beer in general.
I understand America bashing is a well-established and popular international sport, but I think you were stretching when you came up with that particular bit of hooey.
Seems that beer sales in the US have been dropping significantly in favor of wine and spirits and the major brands have suffered in a hard way. So, the brewers are trying to get some of that money back by upping their ABV and waxing their bottles.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/12/09/beers-we-no-longer-drink/3915505/
No mocking or bashing of anyone going on here, just analysing the situation. And you're right, seems that the Brits are doing it, too.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2013/12/09/beers-we-no-longer-drink/3915505/
No mocking or bashing of anyone going on here, just analysing the situation. And you're right, seems that the Brits are doing it, too.
Being American military, I have spent 8 years living in Europe. I can confirm that we do things bigger and better in America. It's not really a contest. That's just how it is 
.
Seriously though, that article actually feeds right into Troy2000's argument that there is a growing appreciation for craft beer. The article you posted focuses on macro-breweries. If you read the bottom of the article, they have excluded craft beer brands and brands with less than 600,000 barrels in sales. The statistics in that article are a little bit deceiving. Sure, macro-breweries have been losing a portion of the market but it's because people are choosing to drink more flavorful beers, and local beers as the number of breweries continues to grow. If you get a chance, check out a documentary called Beer Wars. It's a little older but it explains all the dirty tactics the macro-breweries in the States have used to stay on top. The fact that the little guys are overcoming that, even if it's only a little bit is great news for beer lovers.
As for the Bud Platinum, I thought we were having a serious conversation about high ABV beers..........
At the end of the day, Americans just like variety. Bottle shops with hundreds of beers to choose from are a pretty common sight and they are very accessible in the States. When I first arrived to Germany, I was surprised to find out that I have to travel to the beer. When I go to a restaurant here, normally I get to choose between a Weizen oder Pils. Every once in a while, I'll be pleasantly surprised to find a Dunkelweizen on the menu. Beer seems very regional in Germany and the Germans are content without having a whole lot to choose from. Consider Dusseldorf. Go to a brewery there, and you're getting an Altbier. Once or twice a year, they brew a Sticke with a little more ABV than the standard offering and it is a huge treat. In America, we demand and expect variety. We want choices. The big beers are just a part of that variety. I think that's what Troy2000 is trying to say and IMO, that answers your original question. This thread could have been titled "What's up with all the IPA's/IIPA's?" or "What's up with all the sour beers?" The answer is the same: Variety, that is all.
.Seriously though, that article actually feeds right into Troy2000's argument that there is a growing appreciation for craft beer. The article you posted focuses on macro-breweries. If you read the bottom of the article, they have excluded craft beer brands and brands with less than 600,000 barrels in sales. The statistics in that article are a little bit deceiving. Sure, macro-breweries have been losing a portion of the market but it's because people are choosing to drink more flavorful beers, and local beers as the number of breweries continues to grow. If you get a chance, check out a documentary called Beer Wars. It's a little older but it explains all the dirty tactics the macro-breweries in the States have used to stay on top. The fact that the little guys are overcoming that, even if it's only a little bit is great news for beer lovers.
As for the Bud Platinum, I thought we were having a serious conversation about high ABV beers..........
At the end of the day, Americans just like variety. Bottle shops with hundreds of beers to choose from are a pretty common sight and they are very accessible in the States. When I first arrived to Germany, I was surprised to find out that I have to travel to the beer. When I go to a restaurant here, normally I get to choose between a Weizen oder Pils. Every once in a while, I'll be pleasantly surprised to find a Dunkelweizen on the menu. Beer seems very regional in Germany and the Germans are content without having a whole lot to choose from. Consider Dusseldorf. Go to a brewery there, and you're getting an Altbier. Once or twice a year, they brew a Sticke with a little more ABV than the standard offering and it is a huge treat. In America, we demand and expect variety. We want choices. The big beers are just a part of that variety. I think that's what Troy2000 is trying to say and IMO, that answers your original question. This thread could have been titled "What's up with all the IPA's/IIPA's?" or "What's up with all the sour beers?" The answer is the same: Variety, that is all.
hunter_le five
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This thread could have been titled "What's up with all the IPA's/IIPA's?" or "What's up with all the sour beers?" The answer is the same: Variety, that is all.
Boom. Nailed it.
I walk into my favorite local liquor store (which has a surprisingly decent beer selection), and there are lots of IPAs/IIPAs. Lots of big beers. Lots of sours. Lots of sessions beers. Lots of Belgians. Lots of barrel-aged beers. There's just a lot to choose from, and it can be blissfully overwhelming.
But if I read any beer publication, I would be led to believe that any one of them are dominating the market right now. One publication says we are in a session beer craze, while another contradictorily says big beer's are all the rage, while another says sours are the hot new fad. Another says barrel aging is what all the cool kids are doing. IPAs and IIPAs have been hugely popular for YEARS (yet we still see threads saying "what's with the IPA fad", as if they just discovered it) and show no sign of waning.
If anything, the trend is towards variety, I think/agree (thinkgree?). Along with the standard offerings that every brewery seems to have (pale ale, IPA, double/IIPA, blonde, stout/porter, wheat, amber - as if that's not already a decently large variety), breweries are releasing tons of seasonal/specialty/experimental/fad styles trying to offer what the consumers want - which is variety. Hell, how many different Sam Adams beers are available in stores at any given time? At least three-dozen, or so it feels like.
Regarding big beers: I like them, but only on occasion. Sharing a bomber or two of something with an obscene ABV with my brothers at family gatherings/holidays can be fun. But 99% of the time I prefer beers in the 4-6% range, because I like being able to drink several without getting ****canned.
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our local bottle shop is finally getting more variety. they now have 4 varieties of Surly, 3 of Green Flash, and 4 of Alaskan Brewing Company. still no Barley Wines, RIS, or bourbon barrel anything yet though.
Craft beer has been growing. It's the macros that have dropping sales. You're not suggesting that the US macro breweries are responsible for high ABV, waxed bottles, are you?
troy2000
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I'll offer myself as one example of the shift in American beer-drinking habits. Not that long ago I routinely drank Budweiser when I was feeling flush, and Milwaukee's Best when I was feeling poor. Nowadays I homebrew about five gallons a month, and fill in with a medley of craft and import beers.
So I'm very much a part of the decline in sales for the major breweries the article discusses - but I haven't stopped drinking beer, much less switched to wine and liquor instead. I'm just not drinking much BMC (Bud/Miller/Coors) anymore.
So I'm very much a part of the decline in sales for the major breweries the article discusses - but I haven't stopped drinking beer, much less switched to wine and liquor instead. I'm just not drinking much BMC (Bud/Miller/Coors) anymore.
Ironically, the 'big' beers I normally buy are all Belgian imports.
So we may be witnessing "The end of 'Big Beer' as we know it" (not that kind of Big Beer). I think that's a good thing, while it lasts.
Similar thing is happening here in Finland. Nokian Panimo (Nokia Brewery), which is a small brewery in a small city, is kicking the crap out of KKK (Karhu, Koff, and Karjala) - the Finnish equivalent of BMC - on a nationwide level with their Muenchener, Pils, and Cellar beers. A year or two ago, nobody outside of the Nokia-Tampere region ever heard of them. In response, Karhu came up with a double-hopped beer in a pint-sized can (standard sized beer has been half a liter, but pints have been growing recently since they are a few sips bigger) that isn't too bad, but still costs more than the Nokian Panimo beers. NP is price dumping pretty good beer to ride the wave and build a name, fighting the monopolies, so they've probably got some anonymous source of deep money behind them now. Will they end up being bought by one of KKK? Probably so, and that's probably the investor's goal, even though they've been independent since they began operations 23 years ago.
We definitely have more variety than we had a few years ago. But I'm still not going to pay wine-level prices for a beer, even if it is in a 750ml bottle with blue wax dripping down the sides. Nor am I going to pour it into a snifter glass, swirl it around and pretend to know, from my amazing powers of nose, taste and writing, from which farm the grains and hops come. I like to drink wine, too. Especially Amarone, which, ironically enough, is a Big Wine (legal minimum is 14% ABV). And I still think the wine snobs are nothing more than pretentious.
I suppose a bit part of the problem I have is with beer drinkers suddenly starting to feign sophistication. I have an extraordinary sort of contempt reserved for snobs. Beer is meant to be thrown into a cooler and drank while going down the river in a canoe, or sitting at the edge of a lake fishing, or standing in front of the grill. And hopefully one of them is not enough to put you out of order for the rest of the day.
jekeane
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Beer is meant to be enjoyed. It certainly can and should be enjoyed in the venues you listed. But it can be enjoyed in many more venues of varying sophistication as well. To suggest that all beers are supposed to be low abv toss em in a cooler and drink em like sodas is silly.
troy2000
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Can't find much to argue with there... although occasionally I'll pay wine prices and treat myself to a good Belgian Dubel or Tripel.
Obviously, I'm not going to take a bunch of them with me when I go fishing. The cooler you see here was full of Budweiser, bait and bottled water...
Ah, so the truth comes out at last. Podz just thinks beer is pedestrian, and has no business aspiring to the mighty heights of wine and spirits. Spending $60 on a bottle of Amarone is fine, but spending $8 on a similar sized bottle of beer is snobbery. And enjoying the flavors of an Amarone is great, but one must "feign sophistication" and be "snobbish" to do the same with a beer.
Have fun with your silly prejudices. I'll be over here enjoying a big beer.
Have fun with your silly prejudices. I'll be over here enjoying a big beer.
troy2000
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Maybe I should clarify: when I said that sometimes I'll pay wine prices for a Belgian, I didn't mean I'll pay Amerone prices for one.
And what beer and wine are 'meant for' depends on a lot of things. I'll drink beer with prime rib or a rack of lamb with a perfectly clear conscience... and with an equally clear conscience, I've been known to make a pitcher of Zinfandel wine coolers before I head out the door to mow the lawn (I have a 1 1/2 acre lawn).
And what beer and wine are 'meant for' depends on a lot of things. I'll drink beer with prime rib or a rack of lamb with a perfectly clear conscience... and with an equally clear conscience, I've been known to make a pitcher of Zinfandel wine coolers before I head out the door to mow the lawn (I have a 1 1/2 acre lawn).
Maybe I should clarify: when I said that sometimes I'll pay wine prices for a Belgian, I didn't mean I'll pay Amerone prices for one.
US craft beers have started popping up in Alko recently; I remember seeing something like 5 or 6 different brands the other day. Most of them were like 8 EUR (11 USD), for a 0,33l or 0,5l bottle (can't remember the size, but it definitely wasn't 750ml).
It seems that Amarone is about twice the price in the US as it is here. There are several brands that can be picked up for 25 EUR (34 USD) at Alko. I wouldn't pay those prices either, if I lived in the US - probably it's a heavy import tax on imported wine.
As soon as I get my all-grain setup put together, I'm going to see if I can do an 11% ABV Doppelbock. Then I'm going to invite my friends over and see if anybody actually likes it!
troy2000
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I'm guessing the craft beers you've been seeing are in 22-ounce (650 ml) 'bombers.' Most bombers are 'one and done' styles, that aren't intended as session beers.
Just for curiousity's sake, do you remember some of the ones you've seen?
Start a thread when you do and keep us up to date, beginning with your recipe. And pictures of your new setup, of course. Can't have too many pic's...
I haven't tried a doppelbock. But judging by what I've read, I'd probably have one with my dinner - paired with something hearty, like the aforementioned prime rib or rack of lamb.
Bombers aren't generally sold in Finland. Thankfully, Alko has the best website in the world regarding it's non-distilled selection (illegal to advertise distilled spirits online).
From a search, we find that Alko carries 17 US beers, including some big beers for pretty big prices. Not every Alko carries the full selection, so the beers that I seen in the one near me were mostly the higher priced ones.
Add: If you want to try a Doppelbock, Wiehenstphaner Aventinus is a very good introduction to the style.
I will definitely do so. Might not look as cool as your blue and white canoe, but I'll try anyway ;-)
troy2000
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My younger son and I built that together right before he joined the Army four years ago, as an excuse to spend some time together. I have a build thread for it over at boatdesign.net with a ton of pictures, and lots of comments and conversation from other members:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/wo...ation/building-flat-bottomed-canoe-33266.html
gratus fermentatio
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Try this, it's VERY tasty!
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/ayinger-celebrator-doppelbock/1090/
Or go BIG with this one:
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/ettaler-curator-doppelbock/10585/
Regards, GF.
You can generally recognize German doppelbock pretty easily because they have a tradition in naming them with a suffix of "ator", e.g. alligator, perminator, curator, celebrator, and so on. It's the stuff the monks make and drink because they need more energy during fasting.
Don't forget about Perculator. That one comes complete with women who perform a celebratory dance as soon as you pop the top
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I've had plans to brew a doppelbock called the "Inebriator" for several years. I just never seem to get around to it.
Looking at the list you posted, that's a mix of relatively normal craft beers (mostly IPAs) and some high-ABV specialty stuff. The "relatively normal" beers that are representative of what you'd generally see in the US sit solidly in the 5-7% ABV range.
$70 (two times as much as 25 EUR) would be a little on the expensive side for Amarone. $40 (a little more than 25 EUR) is possible, but you'd be hard-pressed to get a DOCG Amarone for much less. (Non-Amarone Valpolicella is available more cheaply.)
The import tax on wine is maybe a dollar or two a bottle.
That's how you recognize a beer in the doppelbock style, sure. But non-German makers frequently use the same pattern. The easy way to identify it as a German doppelbock is that the store (or restaurant, or what have you) lists it as a "doppelbock" and says that it's from Germany.
I don't know if I should start a thread about my thoughts here or just "hijack" this one. My next move will be to learn how to take a quote and use it in the start of another thread.
Anyway, I have a question about an idea posted above, or maybe to explain how this noob, referring to myself obviously, doesn't quite get an idea that was touched on above.
"Malt backbone" to balance hop bitterness... I'd wonder why we say malt backbone when it's the ABV that does the balancing? (Is that correct?) Being a noob, I don't get why we dont say "ABV to balance to the bitterness", cuz to me "malt" means maltiness and therefore (to me) "malt" backbone would be maltiness backbone or malty taste. True, the malts are used to create the fermentable sugars but to me "ABV" and "maltiness" are two different things. And yes, sweetness and maltiness are also two different things, I realize that as type the next paragraph...
Should we use the higher end of mash temps with a goodly about of crystals to provide a bit more "malty" backbone? Or do we really want the ABV level to be up and therefore we are really saying "alcohol backbone"? Perhaps we are really meaning alcohol backbone but it sounds more beer-knowledgable-geeky to say "malt backbone"? Sup?
You should check out the etiology of Reinheitsgebot. One key reason it was put into place was to prevent brewers from competing with Bakers for Wheat and Rye, and ensure that bread would remain affordable. It had nothing to do with "keep(ing) honest people honest". In fact, it's not even a law anymore, as eventually they had to allow yeast into the mix and now they allow sugars and wheat as well.
Reinheitsgebot also put several non-Bavarian brewing traditions into extinction. Brewers were making great spiced and cherry beers in other parts of Germany prior to it, but alas, they could no longer do this.
Reinheitsgebot is basically a marketing ploy these days.
PS, I love it when people type out punctuation. Period.
The Amarone producers association has a published price-fixing pact that it can't be sold for less than 25 EUR per bottle by retailers. And there are no non-DOCG Amarone sold on the market of WTO members unless it was already imported prior to 2009. Valpolicella is far cheaper to make, thus the price is much cheaper. Price-fixing seems to be legal under Italian law - the real-estate agencies do it as well.
But you can easily find 200 buck/EUR bottles of Amarone if you get a Riserva from 2003, for example.
hunter_le five
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No, that is absolutely incorrect.
Still nope.
Higher mash temps/crystal malt = LESS fermentable sugars/MORE nonfermentable sugars = LESS alcohol = MORE malty taste, not ABV
Weezy
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You can't taste all the alcohol through all that peanut butter, cocoa nibs, oak, hops, etc anyways.
Seemingly 'premium' product for a premium price.
Seemingly 'premium' product for a premium price.
What is being referred to is the general body and maltiness involved. It IMHO can somewhat parallel the ABV, but that's an oversimplification.
Generally lower-ABV beers are not as malty. For example if you taste many of the session IPAs on the market, many are almost thin/watery. Likewise, many higher-ABV beers tend towards the malty side. This is why it's very difficult to find a very dry, crisp 9% DIPA. Most get a bit sweet.
That said, you can find a malty 4% stout and a dry, non-malty 10% tripel. The malty 4% stout will be mashed at 158 degrees and the tripel will be mashed low with a healthy dose of sugar to dry it out. Note that my experience is that crystal malts don't necessarily lend much malt "backbone" -- when mashed low they offer sweetness but not maltiness.
There are many other factors that contribute, of course, not just mash temp. Yeast attenuation, ingredients, water profile, ABV, etc. But the general idea is that mashing higher will result in a more malty beer than mashing lower. And that maltiness is definitely different than ABV.
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