What's the relationship between acid malt and OG?

[jwalk4]

I'm brewing a low og beer (60 Shilling) as a beverage alternative for a Robert Burns's Day celebration.

Would I expect to dedicate the same 2-4% of my acidulated malt to my grain bill if I am full volume mashing with RO water, 7g Calcium Chloride (CaCl2), and 3g Gypsum CaSO4?


Additionally, if pickling lime is preferred to chalk because it's more soluble, is it a 1:1 substitution ratio for raising HCO3?

 

[Yooper]

I'm brewing a low og beer (60 Shilling) as a beverage alternative for a Robert Burns's Day celebration.

Would I expect to dedicate the same 2-4% of my acidulated malt to my grain bill if I am full volume mashing with RO water, 7g Calcium Chloride (CaCl2), and 3g Gypsum CaSO4?


Additionally, if pickling lime is preferred to chalk because it's more soluble, is it a 1:1 substitution ratio for raising HCO3?

The only way to know to answer the question is to input the recipe ingredients into a brewing water calculator spreadsheet, to try to estimate the mash pH. I couldn't guess as to the mash pH without those details.

 

[JonM]

You shouldn't be adding both acid and alkali, so one or the other has to go.

You'd only need acid malt if the predicted mash pH is high.

 

[m00ps]

Acid malt is pretty low in PPG (mid 20s if I remember) but other than that, it doesnt have any more impact on OG than most other specialty malts

As others have said, what it does impact is pH. I use it in a lot of my IPAs and Saisons where I have no darker or crystal grains to lower the mash pH more naturally. IME you can go up to almost 10% with no impact on taste

 

[jwalk4]

You shouldn't be adding both acid and alkali, so one or the other has to go.

You'd only need acid malt if the predicted mash pH is high.

Good point, but I figured if I matched my water first, then I'd have to further adjust for my grain bill.

Here is the water I am matching. I don't have a water report for the RO water, just a meter reading that records the total of all ions in the water, and it read 6ppm of everything, so I think I can assume that it is pretty pure.

Here is my grain bill:

Do I need the acidulated malt, or nah?

 

[jwalk4]

Never mind, I think I got it.

***Water is RO and pretty pure: 6ppm of total solids

So when I add my grain bill to the mix, my PH will (theoretically) fall into 5.49. So if I wanted to lower it by .3, I would need to add 3oz of acidulated malt? Correct?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

3-4oz should get you either close to or just under the 5.40 mark. The BF calculator does have a setting in the grist info for acidulated malt so you could add 3oz of acid malt to the grist info and see what it calculates at. I can't remember which brewing luminary stated the BF water calculator usually gets the pH more accurately than other calculators (but its not as good at other water chemistry calculations).

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't try to match that profile- not at all. First, it may be "Scottish" water, but who knows what the brewers in the region did to the water before using it.

It's got far too much sulfate for my taste, especially for a malty Scottish 60+/-. Combined with the peat malt and roasted malt, that may make a very harsh and unpleasant combination.

Have you considered making a more traditional Scottish ale? Rich malty sweetness, not too dry, and no peat malt. I'd go with more crystal malt, maybe even a little honey malt, and a bit of pale chocolate (under 3%) for the faint roast notes. Munich malt and Golden promise make great base malts for a beer like this. Mash at 156 for a nice rich ale.

If you're married to the idea of the recipe, it should still be fine but I'd definitely NOT use that water profile.

 

[jwalk4]

I wouldn't try to match that profile- not at all. First, it may be "Scottish" water, but who knows what the brewers in the region did to the water before using it.

It's got far too much sulfate for my taste, especially for a malty Scottish 60+/-. Combined with the peat malt and roasted malt, that may make a very harsh and unpleasant combination.

Nope, not married to the recipe or the water profile, it's just that I don't have much to go on.

Brewer's Friend calls that profile Edinburgh, but I thought it would just be a name, and that it would be an appropriate water profile for "Scottish Ales and Malty Ales," like it claims.

Is there a specific water profile, or level of sulfate, that you would suggest? Or should I just stay within Delange's "baseline"?

Thanks, Yoop!

 

[JonM]

And dark malty beers benefit from a mash pH on the higher end. 5.4-5.5 would be just fine here. I wouldn't try to lower it to 5.2.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I wouldn't try to match that profile- not at all. First, it may be "Scottish" water, but who knows what the brewers in the region did to the water before using it.

It's got far too much sulfate for my taste, especially for a malty Scottish 60+/-. Combined with the peat malt and roasted malt, that may make a very harsh and unpleasant combination.

Have you considered making a more traditional Scottish ale? Rich malty sweetness, not too dry, and no peat malt. I'd go with more crystal malt, maybe even a little honey malt, and a bit of pale chocolate (under 3%) for the faint roast notes. Munich malt and Golden promise make great base malts for a beer like this. Mash at 156 for a nice rich ale.

If you're married to the idea of the recipe, it should still be fine but I'd definitely NOT use that water profile.

^ listen to this for the water profile

Way back when I was (am) bad and got sulfate and chloride mixed up, I added something like 4 grams of magnesium sulfate to my water for a strong scotch ale with cherrywood smoked malt (I got it backwards because I was trying to bring up the malty character and mixed up sulfate with chloride).

It took a long time to be drinkable. It make for a fantastic cooking beer due to the strong bacon flavor, eventually it mellowed out and seemed more like a very dry, and minerally smoked irish red ale. I would skip any sulfate unless your base water is very very bland or you are building from RO.

 

[jwalk4]

I would skip any sulfate ... or you are building from RO.

Yep, using all RO. Trying to build from the ground up.

 

[Yooper]

I would recommend doing the wonderful Scottish 60+/- from Jamil Zainasheff's Brewing Classic Styles for a recipe. It's a solid recipe, and nails the Scottish profile perfectly.

As far as water, a basic "brown malty" profile would be great. I'd say a mash pH of 5.5 or so, like JonM mentioned, chloride of 50-75ppm and calcium of 50-100 ppm and other additions can be minimal to 0, depending on how high you get the calcium with just calcium chloride. That is where I'd start, though- RO water and calcium chloride and a mash pH of 5.5.

If you need the recipe from BCS, I can try to dig it out later if Google can't find it. I'm out and about right now.

 

[jwalk4]

I would recommend doing the wonderful Scottish 60+/- from Jamil Zainasheff's Brewing Classic Styles for a recipe. It's a solid recipe, and nails the Scottish profile perfectly.

As far as water, a basic "brown malty" profile would be great. I'd say a mash pH of 5.5 or so, like JonM mentioned, chloride of 50-75ppm and calcium of 50-100 ppm and other additions can be minimal to 0, depending on how high you get the calcium with just calcium chloride. That is where I'd start, though- RO water and calcium chloride and a mash pH of 5.5.

If you need the recipe from BCS, I can try to dig it out later if Google can't find it. I'm out and about right now.

Yes, it seems that 2grams of gypsum and 4 grams of Calcium Chloride give me 50.8ppm of calcium and 65.8 of chloride.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[jwalk4]

 

[Mer-man]

So when I add my grain bill to the mix, my PH will (theoretically) fall into 5.49. So if I wanted to lower it by .3, I would need to add 3oz of acidulated malt? Correct?

NB: Weyermann's sheet on acidulated malt says 1% of the grist for a .1 pH drop. So for .3 you would need 3%.

 

[jwalk4]

NB: Weyermann's sheet on acidulated malt says 1% of the grist for a .1 pH drop. So for .3 you would need 3%.

I would have missed that for sure. I'll have to go back and re-examine my recipe. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Mer-man]

Weyermann published a presentation on "pH in the Brewery". I would attach it here, but it is too large. If I found it, I am confident you can too

Hope the beer turns out great!

 

[jwalk4]

Weyermann published a presentation on "pH in the Brewery". I would attach it here, but it is too large. If I found it, I am confident you can too

Hope the beer turns out great!

http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Weyermann_TKW_Mash-pH_2010.pdf
Linked!

Thank you,