What's the hardest brew to get wrong?

[ninkwood]

My last couple beers haven't turned out great. While they're both relatively complex and young for their styles/ABV, I want my next brew to be simple and straight forward with a quick turnaround.

The first thing that comes to mind is a SMaSH pale ale with either US-05 or Voss Kviek.

I'm still pretty new to this having completed about 20 batches so far. Am I on the right track here or do any of you have a sure fire recipe you'd recommend?

 

[day_trippr]

When I read the title my immediate thought was a smash pale, and as I've never used a Kviek strain I would have suggested US-05

Cheers!

 

[ninkwood]

When I read the title my immediate thought was a smash pale, and as I've never used a Kviek strain I would have suggested US-05

Cheers!

I've used Voss once and it turned out well. It would speed things up a bit, but I agree that US-05 would be safer.

Thanks!

 

[hottpeper13]

I have a 4 tap kegerater and want an APA or IPA on tap so when one is kicked I brew another, that way aways fresh. I can have a Voss fermented one on tap in 12 days; 3 weeks is best.

 

[DBhomebrew]

My last couple beers haven't turned out great. While they're both relatively complex and young for their styles/ABV, I want my next brew to be simple and straight forward with a quick turnaround.

The first thing that comes to mind is a SMaSH pale ale with either US-05 or Voss Kviek.

I'm still pretty new to this having completed about 20 batches so far. Am I on the right track here or do any of you have a sure fire recipe you'd recommend?

Do you have fermentation temperature control? All-grain? Do you have a handle on controlling mash pH via water chemistry adjustment? Extract? Is it fresh?

 

[fluketamer]

stout. extract stout. muntons extract stout. get one can , add 2 lbs of dme. and water reconstitute to only 4.5 gallons not more. you can even use the kit yeast. and ferment at room temp. this works every single time. i have done it over 50 times.

dark extract stouts hide everything
poor hop utilization or just toolittle hops, esters from hi temps and poor yeast health, stale extract etc.

they just taste like roasted malt.

even at the extreme if they get infected and start to sour theres nothing wrong with a tart stout.

at the other end you could say that hopped up pale ales may be the hardest to brew seeing as how theres no dark malts to hide anything and you need full hop expression over any other even slight off flavors.


if not into the kit i would just suggest adding a little something extra maltwise to a smash. i have made great beers with single hops but always find my single malt beers lacking as campard to adding 10 to 20 percent of anything, (vienna munich crystal etc)


jusy my 2 cents

 

[AlexKay]

stout. extract stout. muntons extract stout. get one can , add 2 lbs of dme. and water reconstitute to only 4.5 gallons not more. you can even use the kit yeast. and ferment at room temp. this works every single time. i have done it over 50 times.

dark extract stouts hide everything
poor hop utilization or just toolittle hops, esters from hi temps and poor yeast health, stale extract etc.

they just taste like roasted malt.

even at the extreme if they get infected and start to sour theres nothing wrong with a tart stout.

at the other end you could say that hopped up pale ales may be the hardest to brew seeing as how theres no dark malts to hide anything and you need full hop expression over any other even slight off flavors.


if not into the kit i would just suggest adding a little something extra maltwise to a smash. i have made great beers with single hops but always find my single malt beers lacking as campard to adding 10 to 20 percent of anything, (vienna munich crystal etc)


jusy my 2 cents

++

Dark all-grain beers (stout, porter), also very forgiving, for the reasons given. But you have to watch your water a bit more. Basic water can pull out a lot of astringency, especially if you're including a mash-out. Using bottled RO or distilled is probably the better idea here, if you're looking to mistake-proof things.

(If you're thinking about how to streamline your process and make reliably better beer, you should drop the mash-out anyway.)

I think US-05 is solid, though I personally feel Nottingham is better behaved, and produces good beer over a wider range of temperatures. W34/70, even without temperature control, might also be something interesting to explore. Definitely stick to dry yeast (again, given that you are wanting to mistake-proof your process.)

If you're set on a SMaSH, use Vienna or English pale malt (e.g., Maris Otter.) Vienna SMaSHes are yum.

Or, as mentioned, two-row with a pound of Munich. (I disagree on "anything." Munich.)

 

[ninkwood]

Do you have fermentation temperature control? All-grain? Do you have a handle on controlling mash pH via water chemistry adjustment? Extract? Is it fresh?

The two beers I mentioned are a 10% ABV Belgian Quad and a session dunkleweizen.

The quad is only 2.5 months old, so it's not fair to judge at the moment, but it's also not drinkable. The dunkleweizen on the other hand is the first beer I'm seriously considering dumping. It's about 4 weeks old now and still has a strong sulphur note to it and not much else going on.

I think the big "problem" is just that I don't have any beer left to drink. If I'd planned my batches a little better, knowing the Quad would take 6 months minimum, I'd be fine right now. I've got a Czech lager in the fermenter right now - another beer that is about 6 weeks away from finishing up - so I want something I can turn around quick and will be least likely to f*&$ up.

To answer your specific questions, I'm doing all grain, I do have fermentation temperature control, and I'm adjusting water chemistry and measuring pH. With that said, I still make mistakes every brew. I've been building my brewery for about a year now and almost every single batch has included something new, so I haven't dialed in my process yet. I'm finally at a place where I'm brewing on the same setup. I was trying to run before I could walk with some of these complicated beers (the Quad), and now I want to focus on my process with some simple basic beers that build some confidence.

 

[ninkwood]

stout. extract stout. muntons extract stout. get one can , add 2 lbs of dme. and water reconstitute to only 4.5 gallons not more. you can even use the kit yeast. and ferment at room temp. this works every single time. i have done it over 50 times.

dark extract stouts hide everything
poor hop utilization or just toolittle hops, esters from hi temps and poor yeast health, stale extract etc.

they just taste like roasted malt.

even at the extreme if they get infected and start to sour theres nothing wrong with a tart stout.

at the other end you could say that hopped up pale ales may be the hardest to brew seeing as how theres no dark malts to hide anything and you need full hop expression over any other even slight off flavors.


if not into the kit i would just suggest adding a little something extra maltwise to a smash. i have made great beers with single hops but always find my single malt beers lacking as campard to adding 10 to 20 percent of anything, (vienna munich crystal etc)


jusy my 2 cents

Thanks for sharing! I was actually considering a stout as well because my second all grain batch was a stout and I didn't have a clue what I was doing at the time but it still came out decent. It just tasted like roasted malts as you said.

Maybe I'll do a pale ale with a bit of caramunich or something. I have alot of leftover malt and hops to use up.

 

[ninkwood]

(If you're thinking about how to streamline your process and make reliably better beer, you should drop the mash-out anyway.)

Why skip the mashout? I've only recently been able to step mash, and only slowly so I don't do a mashout step, but just curious how this could cause issues?

Definitely stick to dry yeast (again, given that you are wanting to mistake-proof your process.)

Funny you mention it, I've recently switched to liquid yeast starters. I've definitely wondered if this could be part of my issue, as prior to this I was over-pitching dry yeast and was better success on what I would view as poorer executed worts.

 

[mac_1103]

I want something I can turn around quick and will be least likely to f*&$ up.

Brut IPA.

Quads really aren't that complicated, but IME almost any really big beer needs some time to come into its own. Except maybe Imperial IPAs.

 

[Willy]

Pale Ale malt is most forgiving. Ale varieties are harder to mess up. Darker beers also make mistakes harder to detect.

Pilsner takes a little more knowledge and understanding. Lagers are harder to do than ales.

ABV is also a factor. Easier to brew a beer at 4.5-6.5% abv than anything above 7.5.

The secret ? Get another bucket fermenter (or 2 or 3) and make an extra batch. Ferment in your house at room temp for 2 weeks as usual. Work to get ahead of the curve. I have 10 gallons of beer aging (a stout and a porter)... When a tap is getting close to empty, I cold crash and finish carbing. You don't wanna be without beer.

 

[ninkwood]

Pale Ale malt is most forgiving. Ale varieties are harder to mess up. Darker beers also make mistakes harder to detect.

Pilsner takes a little more knowledge and understanding. Lagers are harder to do than ales.

ABV is also a factor. Easier to brew a beer at 4.5-6.5% abv than anything above 7.5.

The secret ? Get another bucket fermenter (or 2 or 3) and make an extra batch. Ferment in your house at room temp for 2 weeks as usual. Work to get ahead of the curve. I have 10 gallons of beer aging (a stout and a porter)... When a tap is getting close to empty, I cold crash and finish carbing. You don't wanna be without beer.

Yup - this is my biggest frustration at the moment. For temp control, I went with a small freezer that an only fit a single fermenter. When you factor in schedule conflicts, I can often only brew once a month. It would be great to do two batches in a single weekend for instance.

I've sworn off buying alcohol since I'm spending alot of money on brewing. But this rule has basically forced me into an unwanted "sober October" lol

 

[Bobby_M]

If I'm understanding the question, you're asking for the most foolproof style to brew.

Not hoppy.
Not lager
Not high gravity

Yes:
American Brown
Stout
Porter

Darker beers accommodate a wider range of water sources for more ideal mash pH.
Roasty flavors mask oxidation and other off flavors to a certain threshold.
Esters due to lower yeast pitches or warmer fermentations generally don't ruin these beers.

 

[ninkwood]

If I'm understanding the question, you're asking for the most foolproof style to brew.

Yup that sums it up, thanks for the suggestion!

I'm going back to session beers, and in going to do two smaller batches ASAP, pale ale fermented with US-05 and one Stout in order to use up my over grown collection of specialty malts.

Thanks folks!

 

[AlexKay]

Why skip the mashout? I've only recently been able to step mash, and only slowly so I don't do a mashout step, but just curious how this could cause issues?

The primary issue, aside from just the general increase in complexity with an additional step — more steps equals more chances for mistakes— is increased extraction of things you don’t want, most often tannins.

But more to the point, what’s the benefit? It potentially could make sense at larger scales, where the decrease in viscosity at higher temperatures could speed up sparging. The arguments about “locking in the sugar/carb profile,” I.e. “stopping enzymatic activity” also don’t make a lot of sense. The enzymes denature in the boil anyway, and what’s the difference if alpha amylase gets an extra half hour on your wort?

In my opinion, it’s one of those things that professional brewers do, that maybe make sense when you’re double- or triple-batching 10s of barrels every day … and then homebrewers decide they have to copy. I think it’s hard to argue it does anything meaningful for you when you’re making 10 gallons in your backyard. And if you’re doing 5 gallons with BIAB, it pretty much can only make things worse for you.

It’s my opinion, and not necessarily widely held. Folks can (probably will) chime in to say what I’m missing.

Funny you mention it, I've recently switched to liquid yeast starters. I've definitely wondered if this could be part of my issue, as prior to this I was over-pitching dry yeast and was better success on what I would view as poorer executed worts.

With dry yeast, you need to worry much less about the age of the packet, you get to forget about oxygenation/aeration, and (given package sizes and expense) it’s much easier to pitch enough cells. Liquid yeast certainly has its fans (can’t match the range of choices!) but if you’re trying to remove possible points of failure as part of troubleshooting, I think dry yeast is the clear way to go.

I don’t believe overpitching is ever really a concern for homebrewing. Underpitching can give you a bad beer. Overpitching will not. It may be a slightly different good beer than with a correct pitch, so yes, if you’re shooting for professional-level batch-to-batch consistency, make sure your pitch stays the same.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I agree with the above about "simplest" or most "forgiving" styles... but if you don't care to drink that style then why brew it... my opinion, pick your favorite style and brew it, then make adjustments, learn, brew it again, repeat. You'll get your process down, learn what corrections improve your beer, and if it's not perfect atleast it's a style you'll enjoy drinking. Each batch will improve over the next. Ohhh, and take good notes.

 

[Kickass]

Stout in order to use up my over grown collection of specialty malts

I’m not sure what specialty malts you have but I’d advise against a “kitchen sink” beer if you’re trying to brew something tasty and foolproof.

Foolproof beer I’d brew to get me out of a funk:
5% ABV
Characterful base malt (MO or Vienna).
Light touch of C40-C60.
Very light touch of roasted barley, carafa III special or midnight wheat.
30 IBU’s of traditional American C hops, English or Noble hops.
US-05 or Notty.


Recipe idea
92% MO
6% C40
2% roasted barley
15 IBU’s CTZ @60min
10 IBU’s CTZ @20 min
5 IBU’s CTZ @5min
US-05

I frequently avoid “styles” and brew to flavor profiles I like so that’s how I frame questions like this.

 

[ninkwood]

“locking in the sugar/carb profile,” I.e. “stopping enzymatic activity”

I've had the same issue with my last two beers that has me planning a mashout on my next beer. For context, I'm using a 3V HERMs and had been using a brew bag to make cleanup easier. But I decided to ditch the bag, and in both batches since I ended up with either a stick sparge or alot of grain in the BK. Both of these problems were solved, but it took time, with the wort sitting there for about 40 minutes preboil. Ignoring some other potential issues this caused, I came to the conclusion I should be doing a mashout as insurance against future delays in getting to the boil. In reality though, I suppose I'll eventually get the hang of lautering and this won't be necessary, so I'm probably better off skipping it.

With dry yeast, you need to worry much less about the age of the packet, you get to forget about oxygenation/aeration

Since I don't have an O2 setup at the moment (other than a good vigerous shake), perhaps this is my main culprit. I didn't realize dry yeast had lower o2 requirements. Do you mind elaborating on why this is? I switched from dry to mostly liquid about 6 batches ago. I'm set on a fresh US-05 packet next batch, and I'm only brewing about 4 gallons. I've generally always overpitched except for wheat beers.

I agree with the above about "simplest" or most "forgiving" styles... but if you don't care to drink that style then why brew it... my opinion, pick your favorite style and brew it, then make adjustments, learn, brew it again, repeat.

This is great advice. While I've only made beers I enjoy, I'm bouncing around way too much for a newb. I need to learn the brewing process on my system, and I need to learn each individual recipe/style separate from that. I do really enjoy pale ale so I think I'll start there as it doesn't get much more straightforward.

I’m not sure what specialty malts you have but I’d advise against a “kitchen sink” beer if you’re trying to brew something tasty and foolproof

Good advice too. Cleaning out the pantry and brewing something foolproof are certainly not one in the same thing! I'm going to makes pale ale next weekend or the weekend after, so I have a month+ to figure out the stout recipe after that, and I'm starting to think I might be better served doing a second pale ale based on what I learn from the first one.

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

I didn't realize dry yeast had lower o2 requirements. Do you mind elaborating on why this is?

Yeast need oxygen only to replicate, not to ferment. Specifically they need oxygen to synthesize sterols for making new cell membranes and walls. Dry yeast are grown under conditions that allow them to build up sufficient sterol reserves for the growth phase. So if you direct pitch dry yeast you really don't need to worry about oxygenating your wort.

 

[ninkwood]

Yeast need oxygen only to replicate, not to ferment. Specifically they need oxygen to synthesize sterols for making new cell membranes and walls. Dry yeast are grown under conditions that allow them to build up sufficient sterol reserves for the growth phase. So if you direct pitch dry yeast you really don't need to worry about oxygenating your wort.

I've been researching this all night, thanks for pointing that out it's a connection I failed to make until now. I'll definitely be using dry pitches for my next two "foolproof" brews. I'll probably buy a disposable o2 setup at some point for the liquid strains. Thanks again

 

[Miraculix]

The easiest great beer I've ever brewed was kind of along these lines:

All pal malt or pilsner malt
Og 1.05
Single infusion 65c to 69c
Us05
One hop of these: Chinook, Simcoe, citra
Get it to 35 to 40 ibus
10 minute addition should be around 2g/l
You might dry hop with 2g/l for two days, but you don't have to.

Bottle with maximum 5mm headspace per bottle (this is crucial!).

Wait two weeks, enjoy!

 

[mashdar]

"Back in my day" the first kit a LHBS would send you home with was a 4-5% english brown with a pack of dry yeast.

Ditto the consensus: low hop (aroma), dark, and low-medium gravity (1.060 max?). Dry yeast also avoids potential starter issues.

edit: And for all grain, stout (lots of roasted grain) is safer if you have no clue what your pH is doing. Low mash pH (5.0?) will generally taste better and convert better than high pH (5.8?).

 

[Miraculix]

I wouldn't say low hop is a good idea. Hops are anti oxidants as they easily oxidise themselves. If you throw in enough of them you will protect the beer without being able to taste a detrimental effect of the oxidation accept that the hop aroma fades a bit.

As long as the fermenter is air tight and the bottles are filled with as little head space as possible (don't go lower than 5mm though), there's not much room for detrimental oxidation in these brews.

 

[mashdar]

I wouldn't say low hop is a good idea. Hops are anti oxidants as they easily oxidise themselves. If you throw in enough of them you will protect the beer without being able to taste a detrimental effect of the oxidation accept that the hop aroma fades a bit.

As long as the fermenter is air tight and the bottles are filled with as little head space as possible (don't go lower than 5mm though), there's not much room for detrimental oxidation in these brews.

The thing about hops is it's very easy to oxidize away aroma on a hoppy beer. Process matters a lot for a good hoppy beer.

IBUs are easy, though.

 

[hottpeper13]

You can scrub the sulpher out by putting CO2 on the output of the keg, open PRV and bubble CO2 thru it.
Another fast beer is a Wit, their ready in 3 weeks.

 

[corncob]

I tell new brewers to start with bought water and brew something flavorful, amber-to-brown, and use too much dry yeast. A published recipe.

And brew it three times without making any changes.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

You can scrub the sulpher out by putting CO2 on the output of the keg, open PRV and bubble CO2 thru it.
Another fast beer is a Wit, their ready in 3 weeks.

Have not had this problem, but I want to file this away just in case I run into it.
How long does this take? Do you run a little through, get immediate results, or do you have to let it sit awhile before sampling, and repeat as necessary?

 

[faithie999]

(If you're thinking about how to streamline your process and make reliably better beer, you should drop the mash-out anyway.)

to make sure i understand, you would recommend putting the mash (at whatever the mash temp is) directly into the sparge vessel, without heating?

thanks

 

[crazyjake19]

I've brewed the popular Guinness clone (recipe on Brewfather) every year since I've started brewing and it's always been 100% spot on. Possibly the only beer I've never had to tweak slightly over time. Super simple.

 

[mashdar]

I've brewed the popular Guinness clone (recipe on Brewfather) every year since I've started brewing and it's always been 100% spot on. Possibly the only beer I've never had to tweak slightly over time. Super simple.

The nice thing about Guinness is the real deal is ~10% stale and soured, so O2 exposure and minor infection is authentic!

 

[bwible]

If you’re a fan of Belgians I always say its pretty hard to screw up a Belgian. If it got infected, what difference would it make?

But seriously, dark beers like dry stout have alot going on to hide any flaws. Or how about an old school Texas brown ale?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

a simple brown ale is hard the screw up

 

[MaxStout]

Plenty of good advice above on beers to brew, so I won't add to it.

I will say that good note-taking is very helpful, if you're not doing it already. Write down as much info as you can--even tiny details may help later.

If things go south, it may help you determine what went wrong and what to do differently. You can post to this forum, give lots of info and people will jump in to help troubleshoot.

If a brew works out well, you have a blueprint to copy next time.

 

[ninkwood]

Plenty of good advice above on beers to brew, so I won't add to it.

I will say that good note-taking is very helpful, if you're not doing it already. Write down as much info as you can--even tiny details may help later.

If things go south, it may help you determine what went wrong and what to do differently. You can post to this forum, give lots of info and people will jump in to help troubleshoot.

If a brew works out well, you have a blueprint to copy next time.

My biggest problem has been the constant changes to my process. I've been adding equipment slowly over the past year and I'm now brewing on a 3v1pHERMs. Each brew it seems I'm either doing something different or I've added a piece of equipment.

I'm finally satisfied with what I have to work with, and my plan now is to do a handful of simple 1 or 2 rest mashes, with no decoctions or whirlpools etc until I can mash, boil and chill in my sleep.

 

[ninkwood]

Yeast need oxygen only to replicate, not to ferment. Specifically they need oxygen to synthesize sterols for making new cell membranes and walls. Dry yeast are grown under conditions that allow them to build up sufficient sterol reserves for the growth phase. So if you direct pitch dry yeast you really don't need to worry about oxygenating your wort.

@mac_1103 I hope you don't mind me going off topic a bit and asking you another question about wort oxygenation/sterols.

While I've switched to liquid yeast, I've been making starters on a stir plate for every batch. Does this process build up yeast health/sterol levels to the level of a dry packet? Or were you already assuming I was making a starter in this manner?

I'm going to go with dry packets for the next little while regardless, but I'm wondering if I should either buy an O2 setup or ditch my stir plate entirely going forward.

 

[mac_1103]

While I've switched to liquid yeast, I've been making starters on a stir plate for every batch. Does this process build up yeast health/sterol levels to the level of a dry packet? Or were you already assuming I was making a starter in this manner?

I'm probably the wrong person to answer that question. I have read some things that suggest oxygenating the starter is sufficient but I have no idea if that's valid.

 

[passedpawn]

For sure, the easiest beer to nail is a german hefewiesen. Key: just use wheat extract (which is half wheat and half barley, perfect), Wyeast 3068, 1 oz of any noble hop at 60m, ferment at room temp. Couldn't be easier.

 

[day_trippr]

From the first post it appears the OP is into all-grain brewing. While an all-extract brew surely is the epitome of "can't fail", that may be a retrograde approach in this case...

Cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

From the first post it appears the OP is into all-grain brewing. While an all-extract brew surely is the epitome of "can't fail", that may be a retrograde approach in this case...

Cheers!

OK, make it with grain.

edit: I read the first post. where does it say that?