Whats causing this flavor?!?!

[kev211]

Ok, so I can't figure out what's going on here. I tasted a sample of both my beers fermenting and it tasted great. I bottled it with corn sugar for priming, and every time I do it I get the same vanilla-y meets boozy meets slightly musty/cardboardy aroma (and a little in the flavor). I don't know what it is. Its not unbearable, but its not great. Any idea if it could be the corn sugar? Cuz I don't know what else it could be. Any ideas??

As a note, The beer had very limited exposure to oxygen after I pulled the sample so I don't think its that.

I also havent dabbled in water chemistry, so heres my local water report (see below). Ive read about people adding gypsum to their brewing water, based on my water report could that have helped? (I did use a more beer 10" water filter)

Water Report


Thanks in advance!!

 

[masonsjax]

Deja vu! I saw this same post under a different title a few hours ago.

Musty is usually oxidation. I suppose it could be from very stale corn sugar though. Vanilla-y boozy though? I don't know, seems like multiple problems with your process or infection? I suggest taking a few bottles to a brew club meeting, an LHBS, or some knowledgeable homebrewer friends and get opinions. It's hard to diagnose without tasting.

 

[masonsjax]

Oh, and don't just add gypsum willy nilly. Water chemistry is an important part of brewing, but you can make things worse if you don't know what you're doing. To get started, read the primer. It has simple fool-proof tips on getting a base line water profile for most styles which you can then build on as you learn more.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

 

[kev211]

Deja vu! I saw this same post under a different title a few hours ago.

Musty is usually oxidation. I suppose it could be from very stale corn sugar though. Vanilla-y boozy though? I don't know, seems like multiple problems with your process or infection? I suggest taking a few bottles to a brew club meeting, an LHBS, or some knowledgeable homebrewer friends and get opinions. It's hard to diagnose without tasting.

Somehow it got posted in the wrong section from my phone (already contacted admins to shut that one down). I plan on taking some to my LHBS once they finish aging. Ill admit, they were pretty green when I tried them, but I have noticed this flavor/aroma in a few of my beers before. And I could understand process, but my sanitation is beyond meticulous. I get the hard to tell without tasting (I used to be a bicycle mechanic and hated when people asked me to diagnose their bikes over the phone) but thought maybe someelse may have had the same "issue"

Oh, and don't just add gypsum willy nilly. Water chemistry is an important part of brewing, but you can make things worse if you don't know what you're doing. To get started, read the primer. It has simple fool-proof tips on getting a base line water profile for most styles which you can then build on as you learn more.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

Thanks! Ill take a look at that thread

 

[Yooper]

I couldn't get much out of the water report- it looks like it varies greatly and some of the things you really need (alkalinity, sulfate) aren't listed. You could send a water sample to Ward Lab, and for $26 get a report on the 'household minerals test', but if your water varies depending on season or wells, that wouldn't be helpful I guess.

Oxidation sounds like the cause, though, based on the description of the flavor.

 

[kev211]

I couldn't get much out of the water report- it looks like it varies greatly and some of the things you really need (alkalinity, sulfate) aren't listed. You could send a water sample to Ward Lab, and for $26 get a report on the 'household minerals test', but if your water varies depending on season or wells, that wouldn't be helpful I guess.

Oxidation sounds like the cause, though, based on the description of the flavor.

Ya, I think I may end up doing that.

I dont get how it could be oxidation though. When I siphoned off the beer from the fermenter I covered the opening with saran wrap (sanitized) and covered my bucket while I bottled. No splashing, or excessive contact with air. Hopefully I can start kegging soon and will just be able to transfer from fermenter to keg...

 

[Talgrath]

Well, usually oxidation happens over time, I bottle my beer with the bottling bucket uncovered for example, with no issues. Either the seal on the fermentation chamber was partially faulty or the bottle capper is faulty or you're severely under priming your beer if oxidation is the issue. Personally, I'd guess offhand that water chemistry is the cause. You may be able to request a more complete water report from the city to help you with water chemistry, my previous city had a similar water report, but on request you could get a more in-depth one.

 

[kev211]

Well, usually oxidation happens over time, I bottle my beer with the bottling bucket uncovered for example, with no issues. Either the seal on the fermentation chamber was partially faulty or the bottle capper is faulty or you're severely under priming your beer if oxidation is the issue. Personally, I'd guess offhand that water chemistry is the cause. You may be able to request a more complete water report from the city to help you with water chemistry, my previous city had a similar water report, but on request you could get a more in-depth one.

The caps seem to be sitting on the bottles fine, and (they have only been in the bottles for a week) they did hiss when i opened them, which implies that, while not carbed yet they still have co2 buildup. I may contact my city water department and try to get a more detailed report, cuz this really bums me out. It tasted great when I sampled it, bottled it a day later, and now it taste funky.

 

[fuzzy2133]

Could also try bottling with DME or Honey to rule out any flavors the corn sugar could have picked up between you and the manufacture. (vanilla salt is easy to make, 1 vanilla bean and salt in a mason jar for a few weeks)
I have had the lovely cardboard flavor and aroma in the past. I traced it back to a faulty bottling bucket spigot that was not fully sealing at the top and letting air into the beer when it was flowing through on its way to the bottle.

 

[flars]

How are you treating this water to eliminate the chlorine or chloramines that the municipality uses?

 

[kev211]

Could also try bottling with DME or Honey to rule out any flavors the corn sugar could have picked up between you and the manufacture. (vanilla salt is easy to make, 1 vanilla bean and salt in a mason jar for a few weeks)
I have had the lovely cardboard flavor and aroma in the past. I traced it back to a faulty bottling bucket spigot that was not fully sealing at the top and letting air into the beer when it was flowing through on its way to the bottle.

I noticed a small leak coming from the top of the spigot, but wouldnt it take longer than that? I mean, thr dang bucket is exposing everything to the air at the top

How are you treating this water to eliminate the chlorine or chloramines that the municipality uses?

Uhhhhh, I filtered it? Haha, I havent done any water treating. That was kinda what I was looking for some help with.

 

[Onkel_Udo]

Unless it was a carbon block filter run at a relatively low flow rate, you are not doing to much for Chloramides. The chloraphenol (sic?) contamination was the only beer I ever dumped...In my case a substandard treatment plant at the end of its useful life switch from Chlorine to Chloramines...and much higher doses. Your situation could be much more subtle.

 

[kev211]

Unless it was a carbon block filter run at a relatively low flow rate, you are not doing to much for Chloramides. The chloraphenol (sic?) contamination was the only beer I ever dumped...In my case a substandard treatment plant at the end of its useful life switch from Chlorine to Chloramines...and much higher doses. Your situation could be much more subtle.

It was a 10" carbon block filter. I ran it at what I would guess to be .6-.75 GPM. Seemed pretty slow. Took about 10-12 minutes.

Edit: actually, come to think of it... I bottled 2 separate batches. The first batch has a lot more of the off flavor. I didnt have the filter when I did that batch so I just used a Brita. The second batch has much less of the aroma/flavor and I used the carbon filter. But it is a black IPA so I feel like it may be doing a better job of masking the flavors

 

[fuzzy2133]

I noticed a small leak coming from the top of the spigot, but wouldnt it take longer than that? I mean, thr dang bucket is exposing everything to the air at the top.

Same thing a slow leak at the spigot. Also heard a low whistling sound and saw lots bubbles running through the bottling wand.

 

[McKnuckle]

Do you get your water from the Skinner plant or the Twin Oaks plant? There is adequate brewing data in the report (I think so) even though the numbers stated are often averages. Both plants are similar:

Skinner
Ca 58, Mg 20, Na 80, Cl 84, SO4 170, Alk. 110, pH 8.2, hardness 230

Twin Oaks
Ca 57, Mg 22, Na 82, Cl 86, SO4 170, Alk. 110, pH 8.3, hardness 230

My quick analysis - adequate Calcium. More than enough Magnesium but not a problem. Slightly high sodium for light styles. Sulfate to Chloride ratio of about 2:1, supposedly good for emphasis of bitterness over maltiness (some people disagree but the effect of these two ions is common homebrewing lore regardless). Fairly high alkalinity. The water is also quite hard, and it's not stated but carbonate/bicarbonate probably contributes to that measurement and is not ideal for brewing many styles.

This water is not too dissimilar in some respects from my well water. My well water makes terrible beer. It has high sodium, very high hardness, high alkalinity from bicarbonate, and tons of chloride with practically no sulfate. I ended up moving to salt-ameliorated distilled water for my brewing. I add in a small amount of well water for some dark styles in order to buffer the mash pH because of the high alkalinity in the well water.

 

[kev211]

Do you get your water from the Skinner plant or the Twin Oaks plant? There is adequate brewing data in the report (I think so) even though the numbers stated are often averages. Both plants are similar:

Skinner
Ca 58, Mg 20, Na 80, Cl 84, SO4 170, Alk. 110, pH 8.2, hardness 230

Twin Oaks
Ca 57, Mg 22, Na 82, Cl 86, SO4 170, Alk. 110, pH 8.3, hardness 230

My quick analysis - adequate Calcium. More than enough Magnesium but not a problem. Slightly high sodium for light styles. Sulfate to Chloride ratio of about 2:1, supposedly good for emphasis of bitterness over maltiness (some people disagree but the effect of these two ions is common homebrewing lore regardless). Fairly high alkalinity. The water is also quite hard, and it's not stated but carbonate/bicarbonate probably contributes to that measurement and is not ideal for brewing many styles.

This water is not too dissimilar in some respects from my well water. My well water makes terrible beer. It has high sodium, very high hardness, high alkalinity from bicarbonate, and tons of chloride with practically no sulfate. I ended up moving to salt-ameliorated distilled water for my brewing. I add in a small amount of well water for some dark styles in order to buffer the mash pH because of the high alkalinity in the well water.

This! You sir are awesome! This is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for your help on the matter. I cant say for sure, but based on proximity I would say Im probably getting my water from the Twin Oaks plant. Im mainly brewing IPA's, but Ill do the occasional saison, or stout. Any recommendations on treatment that I can do to make my water more beer friendly? I may try going to the store and buying some distilled water for my next batch, but I did just buy my filter and would like to put it to use, AND I dont necessarily want to need to buy RO or distilled water everytime I brew.

 

[McKnuckle]

Hey, no problem, I hope it helps a bit! I'm not one of the resident water gurus but since I had to deal with my aforementioned well water issues, I learned enough to be dangerous. I've got about 15 brews done with my new water regimen and I am proud to say they have ALL been fundamentally good tasting. Any weaknesses have been from other factors.

Your water is actually pretty decent, especially if you keep some distilled around for dilution when you brew lighter styles (this is to bring down the alkalinity). If you buy some Calcium Chloride (CaCl) and gypsum powders, you'll then be able to add back enough to balance the diluted minerals back to brewing levels.

I take a simple and pragmatic approach: Keep Calcium between at least 50 but under 100, Magnesium no higher than 20, Sodium as low as possible but definitely under 75, and both Chloride and Sulfate under 150**, balanced with a ratio that suits either bitterness (more Sulfate) or maltiness (more Chloride). Neither should be lower than 25 or so. These are not scientific assessments on my part, but rather the results of empiricism plus gut feeling. I'm sure they are refutable and subject to derision by the resident chemists, but so far this approach has worked for me.

**Many brewers go much higher for Sulfate, say up to 300, when brewing IPAs. I've found that this level does not taste good to me, so I go lower and find it to be just fine.

Most importantly, I seek to keep mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5. You need to use a water tool such as the one at BrewersFriend.com. It takes your actual recipe bill into account, and lets you see how the water and any additions will affect mash pH.

 

[kev211]

Perfect! I use brewers friend for my recipe building, and Ive seen the water section, but havent known what to do with it haha. Ill give that a try now

 

[kev211]

Not to beat a dead horse on this topic, but I was curious... For those of you who use blow off tubes; do you replace them with airlocks? I dont know if my fermenters will fit in my chest freezer with airlocks, so I just keep the blowoffs in the whole time. The temp was at a pretty constant 65 degrees until I cold crash, in which i just put foil over the openings. Does anyone else do it this method?

 

[fuzzy2133]

I switch to an air lock. you can continue to use the blow off just be sure you will not suck back any fluid if the temperature drops or cools down.

 

[kev211]

I switch to an air lock. you can continue to use the blow off just be sure you will not suck back any fluid if the temperature drops or cools down.

Ya, the temp was constant (within 3 degrees) until I switched to cold crashing and covered with foil. Which, begs the question if that was the cause for potential oxidation when it sucked air back in

 

[fuzzy2133]

Is it possible? yes. IMO unlikely sine the head space is probably 98% CO2 post fermentation and the amount of air getting sucked back through the foil is minimal in comparison. I am assuming we are talking 5 gallons of beer in a 6 gallon carboy.

 

[kev211]

Is it possible? yes. IMO unlikely sine the head space is probably 98% CO2 post fermentation and the amount of air getting sucked back through the foil is minimal in comparison. I am assuming we are talking 5 gallons of beer in a 6 gallon carboy.

Yessir. That's what I always figured, it just perplexes me how it tasted great when I pulled a hydrometer sample, then its got this oxidized taste now that its bottled. So I'm trying to eliminate all factors

 

[fuzzy2133]

Yessir. That's what I always figured, it just perplexes me how it tasted great when I pulled a hydrometer sample, then its got this oxidized taste now that its bottled. So I'm trying to eliminate all factors

I have done that too watching every step with a magnifying glass. It could be simple as some old tubing or an old siphon that needs to be replaced. Could be a slow infection (unlikely since you do not have any gushers) from a scratch in the bottling bucket.

 

[kev211]

I have done that too watching every step with a magnifying glass. It could be simple as some old tubing or an old siphon that needs to be replaced. Could be a slow infection (unlikely since you do not have any gushers) from a scratch in the bottling bucket.

Glass carboys. And my tubing and siphon are virtually brand new. I mean, it is what it is. I just find it so frustrating