What yeast strain does Weihenstephaner really use for their Hefeweissbier?

[ebbelwoi]

I've always assumed that Weihenstephaner uses their 68 strain for their hefeweizen, but can anyone confirm that? There's also their 175 strain, which doesn't seem as ubiquitous as the 68.

Weihenstephaner is one of my favorite hefeweizens, but when I brew my own with the 68 strain, it always ends up with a tart taste that I don't get in the Weihenstephaner bottles or on tap.

I'm trying to figure out how to reduce that tartness, which seems to be coming from the yeast. I had a Weltenburger (Kloster) and a Weihenstephaner side by side last week, and the Weltenburger had the same tartness that I get in my own brew, so it got me to wondering. Unfortunately, Weihenstephaner hefeweizen yeast can't be harvested.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Could be a few things... Are you doing a ferulic acid rest? Are you using acid malt, lactic, or phosphoric to bring the mash pH down? Hop choice and time in boil can give a perceived tartness. Fermentation temperature (lower = more clove, higher = more banana/bubble gum). Pitch rate. Choice of pilsner base malt (I find German pilsner a bit more tart/sourdough like where Belgian pilsners are a bit sweeter and bready). And yes, yeast strain. Heffy's can be a real ***** to nail down. I've always considered it one of the toughest styles to perfect.

I'm also a Weihenstephaner fan (love their lager too!). Can't stand American wheats.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

What's the OG of your hefe? I think there's a tendency to brew lower gravity versions than Weihenstephan, which to me taste thin and tart - boost the body and it balances the tartness. Weihenstephan is 5.4%ABV - I suspect it's something like 1.054OG to 1.013FG. There's also a good chance they have some cara malt in there. Another way to boost a bit of the body is to switch some of the pils malt for vienna - it lends a nice residual sweetness. Don't get locked in to the idea that they have to be pale straw coloured - they can be quite a bit darker. To me, WY3068 tastes quite similar to Weihenstephan hefe, so I suspect they are similar strains.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I've named my last few batches "Jupiter" because I wanted to see if a higher gravity would help. As I write this, I'm drinking my first bottle of Jupiter 2 (aka Hefe Will Robinson) next to a bottle of Paulaner. Mine went 1.054 to 1.0136 (5.3% ABV). I think I've got the color where I want it,



but the tartness was still there. I was a bit surprised, though, because I hadn't had a Paulaner in a while, and I recalled it as being one of my favorites, but it tasted a bit dull. I blended the two (heaven help me), and I liked the result. But if I had to pick one over the other, the Paulaner is closer to what I'd call ideal.

I've been studying this page quite a bit: http://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/ and following their advice to the extent that I can. I've tried lowering the mash pH with acidulated malt, as well as letting it ride as high as 5.8. I do ferrulic rests, so rests at 45, 63 and 72, and I think I'm happy with the clove and banana balance. It's just that tartness that I can't seem to figure out.

OK, so...

I know I shouldn't be drinking as I write, but I just went back and poured a Jupiter 1. It's less tart, but also lighter (1.0505 to 1.0126). It's got nice flavors, but again... the tartness. In comparison, the Paulaner might have a hint of hops, too? I've been doing 60-minute additions only. I seem to get a faint whiff of something noble in there... maybe that oddly skunky smell I've gotten from Hallertauers.

As far as malts, I started around 70% wheat and have come down to 52%, hoping to get rid of the tartness. I use 7-10% carahell, maybe 20-30% pilsner, and 10-20% light munich or a combination or munich and vienna. I also add maybe 2-3% melanoidin, just in case there's something to the "faux decoction" thing. All of my malt is Weyermann.

I've tried fermenting at 16C, and up to 24C. I usually shoot for 20-22. I have to use dry yeast due to my location, but I've read that the yeast I'm using, Danstar Munich Classic, is in fact the W68 strain. I can order WLP yeasts by special order, but they run about $20 shipped, take maybe 6-8 weeks to arrive, and it still seems like the best choice would be WLP300, which is the W68 strain anyway, right? For what it's worth, I also had tartness with WB-06 and Danstar Munich, neither of which I'll use again.

I have very soft water to begin with, and I have an inline filter. I don't do additions for hefeweizen, but I've found I need to add various salts to my other brews (pilsner, helles, and alt). I brew in poly/plastic water tanks, and I don't get any tartness in my other beers. Just the hefeweizens.

I've got a brew day scheduled for tomorrow. I've added 2% glucose to the recipe, but although it should give me more banana, I'm not sure it'll help much with the tartness. I'm not sure what the next step is. Do I keep tinkering with the recipe? Or do I something drastic and try a lager yeast, or something like Nottingham or S-04, to see whether it's the yeast or something else? I've been doing 5L batches until I get the recipe and process figured out, so I don't mind if a batch doesn't turn out the way I'd hoped. I'm not a fan of American or Belgian weizens either, but I'm willing to give it a shot.

Just hoping to make a really good hefeweizen.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Vale71]

I've tried fermenting at 16C, and up to 24C. I usually shoot for 20-22. I have to use dry yeast due to my location, but I've read that the yeast I'm using, Danstar Munich Classic, is in fact the W68 strain. I can order WLP yeasts by special order, but they run about $20 shipped, take maybe 6-8 weeks to arrive, and it still seems like the best choice would be WLP300, which is the W68 strain anyway, right? For what it's worth, I also had tartness with WB-06 and Danstar Munich, neither of which I'll use again.

Even though it might be indeed the same strain you'll never get the same result from dry yeast as you would with liquid. This is particularly true of Weizens where the phenolics and esters play such an important role.

 

[Miraculix]

If you're yeast gives you tartness, use another yeast!

Some yeast does this, no way around it. I often read that the dry yeast Lallemand Munich classic (note, there is also Munich, without the classic, don't use this one!) Should be the Weihenstephan strain.

Never used it myself but also never read bad coments about this one.

It is supposed to be the only real dry German hefeweizenstrain around, the others are mainly mislabeled Belgians.

 

[14thstreet]

OP, are you repitching or using a new pack for every batch? It seems like you are trying a lot of things but you did not mention this procedure. While I have no experience with this strain and I'm guessing, I wonder if this tartness changes upon a second or third use. You hear about certain strains finding a rhythm (good or better) on successive uses. I certainly would like to try the Munich Classic strain but my brewing partner got the Munich "Wheat" instead. Maybe the tartness is better suited to call it a wit?

 

[mediant]

I have to use dry yeast due to my location, but I've read that the yeast I'm using, Danstar Munich Classic, is in fact the W68 strain.

Munich Classic seems to be a breed of TUM-68, but it's not exactly the same strain - as per Doemens. I had the same experience with it, some batches more tart, others less - can't nail it yet.
I've also tried CML Weiss yeast in the past, and it's a great yeast for Bavarian wheat too - without pH drop quirks of Munich Classic, though aroma profile certainly differs (MC is more peachy). I believe it's in fact Mangrove M20 - so you may want to try that one instead.

 

[mediant]

Weihenstephaner is one of my favorite hefeweizens, but when I brew my own with the 68 strain, it always ends up with a tart taste that I don't get in the Weihenstephaner bottles or on tap.

FWIW, there's an interesting paper on the matter - The Importance of a Comparative Characterization of Saccharomyces Cerevisiae and Saccharomyces Pastorianus Strains for Brewing
Among other things, pH drop of different yeast strains was compared, and not only TUM-68 is among winners with delta 0.8, but it also exhibits pH raise during lagering, which is explained by cell autolysis (which may explain why old bottled or kegged beer doesn't taste tart? do you lager too?). Moving forward, authors explain that some strains "exhibited the weakest capacity for acidification (∆pH 0.5), which might be due to cell autolysis caused by low fermentation performance".

Which makes a perfect sense to me - TUM-68 (and Munich Classic, for that matter) is a beast that can finish fermentation in 2-3 days. Any other "neutral" yeast is in fact exhibiting "low fermentation performance" compared to it. So TUM-68 tartness is a healthy fermentation indication, so it seems...

 

[ebbelwoi]

OP, are you repitching or using a new pack for every batch? It seems like you are trying a lot of things but you did not mention this procedure. While I have no experience with this strain and I'm guessing, I wonder if this tartness changes upon a second or third use. You hear about certain strains finding a rhythm (good or better) on successive uses. I certainly would like to try the Munich Classic strain but my brewing partner got the Munich "Wheat" instead. Maybe the tartness is better suited to call it a wit?

I've tried new packs and repitching, and haven't noticed much difference. I'm mashing a new batch right now, so I'll have to make that decision again pretty soon.

Munich Classic seems to be a breed of TUM-68, but it's not exactly the same strain - as per Doemens. I had the same experience with it, some batches more tart, others less - can't nail it yet.
I've also tried CML Weiss yeast in the past, and it's a great yeast for Bavarian wheat too - without pH drop quirks of Munich Classic, though aroma profile certainly differs (MC is more peachy). I believe it's in fact Mangrove M20 - so you may want to try that one instead.

I'll have to track down some M20 then. Thanks for the insight. I don't lager my hefeweizens (do you mean warm or cold?), but I think I may have been drinking them a bit too early. Force carbing probably isn't the way to go, either. Hopefully the combination of fermenting glucose/dextrose (giving me more isoamyl acetate) and a 2 to 3-week warm conditioning schedule will get me closer to what I want.

 

[mediant]

I don't lager my hefeweizens (do you mean warm or cold?), but I think I may have been drinking them a bit too early. Force carbing probably isn't the way to go, either. Hopefully the combination of fermenting glucose/dextrose (giving me more isoamyl acetate) and a 2 to 3-week warm conditioning schedule will get me closer to what I want.

Yup, I've seen some suggesting that Weiss is at its peak after being *bottle* conditioned for 5 weeks, and I totally believe it.
As for lagering - I meant cold, as the article implied. After warm conditioning at Ruh storage (with or without krausen being added), industrially brewed Weiss biers are routinely lagered at about 0C (32F) in order to reduce cell count at bottling.

This lagering step is rarely mentioned in homebrewing, but I find it critical in obtaining and preserving typical Weiss aroma (or any estery beer aroma, for that matter). On occasions I skipped it, I noticed very fast aroma degradation in the bottled beer.

 

[ebbelwoi]

Thanks for the input! I've got another batch fermenting, I've ordered some M20, and I'm going to give my most recent batch (bottle carbed) a few more weeks to see what happens. I'm a little confused about the pH rise, though. I want some autolysis to raise the pH back up, but I'm worried that I'll get some soy sauce aroma and/or flavor.

I'm brewing small batches (6 liters) until I get closer to what I want for an end product, so long-term storage isn't a concern for me. I'll keep it in mind, though.