What were pre-1900 cave aged lagers like?

[T Murph]

Good for you! My late father claimed it was the best beer he ever tasted. We were there in October. Cool weather.

IMO your dad was correct.

 

[Witherby]

6 row was almost definitely used. Here’s a great discussion from some people who know a lot about the pre-prohibition lagers:
Pre-Prohibition Lagers

 

[patto1ro]

I brew mostly ales, mostly because I prefer them, but also because my equipment for cooling beer is limited. Yet sometimes I'll make an amber lager when winter temperatures bring my basement down to the low 50s Fahrenheit. I don't attempt pale lagers because I figure they won't be as good without refrigerated lagering.

Yet I wonder what traditional pale lagers aged without ice or refrigeration tasted like. Of course Pilsner Urquell was once lagered in caves. And I read that old lagering caves still exist underneath New York City, and were used even after refrigeration was introduced in the 1870s. How was the taste of those adjunct-laden American lagers influenced by the lack of cold lagering?

It's not a beer style I'd really want to replicate, but I'm curious because pale American lager with lots of adjuncts is considered one of the more difficult homebrew styles- any technical shortcoming is said to mar the desired clean flavor.

All Lagers were cold lagered, even before artificial refrigeration. They used a combination of naturally cold cellars and natural ice.

 

[bwible]

Here’s 3 articles of interest. These were originally published in Brewing Techniques magazine. Great reading.

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Classic_American_Pilsner
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/The_Bushwick_Pilsners_A_Look_At_Hoppier_Days
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Pre-Prohibition_American_Lagers

 

[patto1ro]

Hmmmmm….don’t think rice was used much until after prohibition. For a true pre 1900 beer, I would omit any rice.

Corn grits would be more typical before 1900.

 

[madscientist451]

Hmmmmm….don’t think rice was used much until after prohibition. For a true pre 1900 beer, I would omit any rice.

Budweiser says they started using rice in 1876. Could they have been the only one?
https://www.anheuser-busch.com/news...sa-rice-partner-to-support-sustainable-rice-/

 

[Oleson M.D.]

Based on the Coors website, their Batch 19, Pre-Pro, is an all malt beer. Were they the only one?

 

[madscientist451]

I noticed Coors are not saying what actual malts were used. The article I saw said they used two malts, but did they specifically say they didn't use corn or rice? There were more than 700 small breweries before prohibition, Its very unlikely they all used the same corn and rice additions.

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I doubt they used any rice, or corn. Most often they will list all the ingredients used.

Ingredients List (Coors Original): Water, Barley Malt, Corn Syrup*, Yeast, Hop Extract

The malt is a Moravian variety.

 

[Beermeister32]

I suspect the crop seasonality had a lot to do with the materials brewed with back in the day. Probably the batch recipes changed based on what was available to them at a reasonable price throughout the year.

 

[Witherby]

Gordon Strong’s style profile in the newest issue of BYO (Jan/Feb 2022) is on Pre-Prohibition Lager. He has this to say about midwestern German-American brewers in the second half of the 1800s:

“The ingredients available in the US needed adaptation to produce European style beers, though. The local 6-row barley had a higher protein content and needed to be diluted with adjuncts such as corn, rice, or sugar in order to produce clear beer. Beers were bittered with domestic hops like Cluster, but finished with imported German noble hop types.”

 

[Oleson M.D.]

I suspect the crop seasonality had a lot to do with the materials brewed with back in the day. Probably the batch recipes changed based on what was available to them at a reasonable price throughout the year.

At first glance, this would make sense. But how many breweries would actually change their recipe? They most likely would buy in bulk quantity to ensure an adequate supply of malt for long enough to brew their beer.

How about the brewers today? Spatan, Hofbrau, Paulaner, AB, Miller, Boston Beer Co.? How far out do they source ingredients. Supply and demand is nothing new, and would affect everyone today like it did 100 years ago.

 

[Beermeister32]

A lot of them ran multiple products/recipes, you can see all the vintage beer labels on ebay, very interesting. They weren't locked into one or two products, - that came later. I suspect they had quite a bit of flexibility there based on material availability. Very similar to all the small breweries today, they would run multiple styles.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here's some interesting info from 1880; Beer, Its History And Its Economic Value As A National Beverage, Frederick William Salem.

 

[Mutant]

Gordon Strong’s style profile in the newest issue of BYO (Jan/Feb 2022) is on Pre-Prohibition Lager. He has this to say about midwestern German-American brewers in the second half of the 1800s:

“The ingredients available in the US needed adaptation to produce European style beers, though. The local 6-row barley had a higher protein content and needed to be diluted with adjuncts such as corn, rice, or sugar in order to produce clear beer. Beers were bittered with domestic hops like Cluster, but finished with imported German noble hop types.”

Although this thread is over a year old, I thought I'd add some thoughts. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts, as what I'm saying below likely brings up some awkward thoughts.

German noble hops shipped across the Atlantic didn't typically arrive in a pristine condition given shipping conditions, and then the storage plus additional shipping by train or riverboat would further degrade them. Depending on the location of beer production in the USA, quality, whether for grains, water, or hops would not have been up to today's standards for various reasons. The production of beer/ale would have had a more significant "random" factor in every batch. My expectation would be that a quality US beer/ale of that timeframe would be lucky to get a BJCP score of 25 to 30. The goals of selling beer at that timeframe were different and the clientele didn't have high standards.

When I produce a pre-prohibition style lager, I focus on being honest with the limitations that existed rather than attempting to create one based on a nostalgic expectation that I would be using 21st-century luxuries that represent a repeatable recipe. I pretty much have no expectations for any of my pre-prohibition lagers to get a high score in a competition. If you produce a pre-prohibition lager that gets a score above 40, then are you really producing an authentic pre-prohibition lager or a nostalgic representation?

 

[Beermeister32]

The goals of selling beer at that timeframe were different and the clientele didn't have high standards.

I’ll bet most Pre-Prohibition beer drinkers had pretty high standards!

The big challenge would be to make great beers with the supplies and conditions around the country. With the popularity of lagers taking hold in the 1800’s, that meant mostly commercial brewing in cooler Northern states prior to the introduction of ammonia refrigeration in the 1800’s.

 

[bwible]

Although this thread is over a year old, I thought I'd add some thoughts. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts, as what I'm saying below likely brings up some awkward thoughts.

German noble hops shipped across the Atlantic didn't typically arrive in a pristine condition given shipping conditions, and then the storage plus additional shipping by train or riverboat would further degrade them. Depending on the location of beer production in the USA, quality, whether for grains, water, or hops would not have been up to today's standards for various reasons. The production of beer/ale would have had a more significant "random" factor in every batch. My expectation would be that a quality US beer/ale of that timeframe would be lucky to get a BJCP score of 25 to 30. The goals of selling beer at that timeframe were different and the clientele didn't have high standards.

When I produce a pre-prohibition style lager, I focus on being honest with the limitations that existed rather than attempting to create one based on a nostalgic expectation that I would be using 21st-century luxuries that represent a repeatable recipe. I pretty much have no expectations for any of my pre-prohibition lagers to get a high score in a competition. If you produce a pre-prohibition lager that gets a score above 40, then are you really producing an authentic pre-prohibition lager or a nostalgic representation?

I wrote something similar years ago in response to a George Fix article. He was another champion of the pre-prohibition style.

I said much similar - ingredients would have been variable at best, they didn’t have sanitizer so their equipment, including barrels, kegs, bottles and however they sealed them could not have been sanitized, people didn’t even know what yeast was up to a certain point in history. Pasteur’s work didn’t come along until about the mid to late 1800s and I’m not sure how widely accepted it would have been here in the US.

They responded that we know the beer was at least good if not great because we have written account after written account telling us it was.

Since things weren’t sanitized, my theory is they probably picked up brett infections. We have people today who love the “belgian” flavor. No reason that people back then probably didn’t like it too.

Far as making beers that taste bad on purpose because thats how they would have been in the past - I don’t see that as a great idea. People weren’t making bad beer in the past because they wanted bad beer or because they thought they were making beer the way it was supposed to be. If they had better technology they would have made better beer. And they did once the technology came along. Plus, no judge is going to give you credit in any competition for a bad beer because its supposed to be historical.

I see the pre-prohibition style as being more about recipe formulation and ingredient differences as opposed to the commercial lagers we have today. Miller is 7 ibu or something and a pre-pro can be 35 ibu or something like that. All 6 row or 6 row mixed with 2 row. I don’t believe any large lager brewery today uses 6 row. And a healthy percentage of corn. Up to 30% corn. If you can get it, use a yeast like Wyeast 2035 which was originally called New Ulm yeast.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

And that is why adjunct laden beers were brewed after prohibition. They wanted to attract a larger audience, mainly going after women.

I‘ve watched this episode a couple times. Also an interesting point was made by John Palmer in a recent podcast that American lager travelled so well and could be stored and transported without degradation it was envied by European brewers. I don‘t recall what publication was cited for that assertion, however.
https://www.history.com/shows/the-food-that-built-america/season-3/episode-2

 

[mac_1103]

they didn’t have sanitizer so their equipment, including barrels, kegs, bottles and however they sealed them could not have been sanitized

So? I mean, modern sanitizers are great and all, but if it wasn't possible to make good beer without them, then humans would have just stopped making beer a long time ago.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

So? I mean, modern sanitizers are great and all, but if it wasn't possible to make good beer without them, then humans would have just stopped making beer a long time ago.

Many beer historians think that at one time all beer was a little tart and a little smokey, all depending maybe a lot of those flavors. lets Not forget that plain water could lead to illness and one’s death, so it didn’t really matter if the beer didn’t taste wonderful if you were thirsty you‘d drink it, right?

 

[bwible]

So? I mean, modern sanitizers are great and all, but if it wasn't possible to make good beer without them, then humans would have just stopped making beer a long time ago.

Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote?

 

[mac_1103]

lets Not forget that plain water could lead to illness and one’s death

Heavily contaminated beer isn't necessarily exactly healthy either. That's what I was trying to get at. Probably didn't express myself as clearly as I could have.

 

[mac_1103]

Did you bother to read the rest of what I wrote?

Yes, I read it all but I try to not quote entire posts.

 

[bwible]

Yes, I read it all but I try to not quote entire posts.

What I'm saying is I made this argument in the past and I was wrong. Read the whole thing.

 

[bwible]

Here are 2 articles of interest, I've probably posted these before. They are older articles but still relevant. They were originally published in Brewing Techniques Magazine now out of business. MoreBeer hosts them now:

https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Pre-Prohibition_American_Lagers
https://www.morebeer.com/articles/Classic_American_Pilsner
[edit] I posted these and another article in this thread last year back in #34. Still great articles on this style - I get a bug to brew it every once in a while.