What is optimal aeration time in yeast lag phase?

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ipso

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(5 gal. all-grain ale) My research is conflicting.

Chris White says the proper lag phase duration for yeast growth is 3-15 hours. He also states 10ppm oxy is optimal. Another guy from Wyeast states his research shows 12-15ppm is optimal. But for how long? Should this not be for quite a few minutes (or even hours) into the lag phase?, and not just a one time pop right after the yeast pitch? Wouldn’t it be better to get a filtered aquarium air pump and oxygenate the primary for most of the entire lag phase? – vs. pure oxygen for just 1 min. just after pitching? (or shaking/drilling, once) What IS optimal? What IS “best practice”? (I must have a new toy. Oxy it is! Oh, but what is it to be? And how?)

It’s important to have a proper inactive lag phase, for healthy attenuation later on (e.g. over pitching.) It’s my understanding the secondary growth phase does not start until the oxygen has been used up. Can’t we control/improve/delay this growth phase kick by providing oxygen for an hour – increasing the “quality” of the lag phase? Kind of like “don’t shoot until you see the whites of their eyes” – then BOOM, many more yeasties fermenting all at once.

That’s counter intuitive to most – who want to see yeast action pronto. (“Whooo” <wipe brow> “Too much Iodophor didn’t wreck my brew.”)

It does not take long to reach saturation of wort with pure oxygen (43 ppm = ~1min with a good stone) – but is that “worse” than 15ppm? What ppm is best? And for how long? How long into the lag phase is too long to add oxy?

Is this a component of taste control? Is aeration a “secret ingredient” in something like the ever illusive Arrogant Bastard clone recipe? A kind of “yeast taste nutrient”?

OR – is this broaching the “new thing” for fermentation performance? DME starters are out. (That’s so 2011.) Enhance the yeast growth phase in the primary via oxy control (just like a stir plate does!), and THEN kick the fermentation phase via a predetermined “oxy pitch rate time”!

[Philo over] In short - do I get pure oxy system or filtered aquatic pump, and how exactly to I best apply that?


Ref - http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/Yeast_Life_Cycle.pdf (via HBT=BillyBroas)
Via - https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-growth-phase-200289/
Ref - [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75gpehf_6Gk]Wyeast Laboratories on Aerating Your Wort - YouTube[/ame]
Ref - Aeration for Home Brewing Beer | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith
Ref - Brew Your Own: The How-To Homebrew Beer Magazine - Brew Wizard - Is it possible to aerate your yeast too much?
Ref - Yeast Propagation and Maintenance: Principles and Practices | Maltose Falcons (via HBT=rellot)
 

InLimbo

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I think you're really over thinking this. I'm an over thinker myself, and I know my own kind. Here is my set up:

I have a medical O2 tank with dual regulators. One gauge tells me how much O2 is in the tank, the 2nd gauge is a flow control regulator. I got an aeration stone from Austin Homebrew Supply (vendor here). I don't aerate during the lag phase. If I was doing an exceptionally high gravity beer (over 1.100) and I was using less than optimal yeast, then I might consider it. But as it is right now I aerate a couple minutes after pitching my yeast. I set my flow control regulator for 15 LPM, and just let it bubble away for ~45 seconds. Since aeration stones are not pure O2, it takes much longer to saturate your wort if you choose to go that route. It's all about getting some hoses and just putting everything together. It's very very easy. Best of luck!
 
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ipso

ipso

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2 minutes using oxygen canister + diffusion stone and you are golden...
But.. but... pure oxygen/stone wort saturation is reached in just 1min (46ppm.) The second minute is entirely wasted oxygen. No?

Or worse – it’s like putting 2x Iodophor – and actually working against you – because 15ppm is “optimal” for yeast in the lag phase. True?

(Important point = no extra oxygen will work. Shaking will work. A filtered aquarium pump will work. An oxygen tank will work. What is BEST? And why?)

I think you're really over thinking this. …
Yes! (I feel so understood. :)) But does anyone know how long to properly aerate wort? Reference?
 

samc

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I'm an under thinker when it comes to this subject. I pump 1 minute with the disposable Oxygen tank set up from Williams Brewing and call it done. Usually the wort is splashed into the fermenter from the chiller. If I am using dry yeast I do zero added Oxygen.

AFAIK, no one as ever created the perfect 100% guaranteed nirvana beer and pretty much if you did do that the sheer joyful bliss would probably send you into the afterlife, so I'd advise against trying too hard. :D
 

Buna_Bere

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no one as ever created the perfect 100% guaranteed nirvana beer and pretty much if you did do that the sheer joyful bliss would probably send you into the afterlife, so I'd advise against trying too hard.
what a way to die...hahaha

I remember Dan Gordon of Gordon Biersch talking about aeration of his starters with o2 for a few minutes every hour to keep the growth rate up. Here's a link to one of Dan's shows on the BN, there's 3 more I think, I'm not sure which one he talked about it on.

The Brewing Network.com - :
 

day_trippr

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But.. but... pure oxygen/stone wort saturation is reached in just 1min (46ppm.) The second minute is entirely wasted oxygen. No?[...]
No.

From Chris White's Yeast, page 79, using a .5u air stone at 1 lpm on a five gallon batch:

30 seconds pure O2 = 5.12 ppm
60 seconds pure O2 = 9.20 ppm
120 seconds pure O2 = 14.08 ppm

(And, fwiw, 5 minutes of carboy shaking = 2.71 ppm)

hth

Cheers!
 

CamelToeJoe

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Get an adjustable C. A.P timer and an electric solenoid valve.. set it however you want... 5 mins every hour or whatever blows your skirt up.

When I run yeast in a stressful high alcohol environment I just run an aquarium pump for a day or so non stop... Works great.
 

Token

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I just shake the fermentor until I'm too tired to do it any more. Then I add the yeast. Seems to work pretty well so far. :D
 

Malticulous

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I've been reading a number of books lately about professional fermentation.

This is from Brewing Science and Practice
The trub and spent hops are separated from the wort, which is then cooled and aerated or oxygenated, usually while being transferred to a fermenter, where it is pitched inoculated with yeast.
The concentration of oxygen required is critical, and depends on the wort, for example, the availability of sterols and unsaturated fatty acids, and the variety and history of the yeast
Dry yeast have high levels of sterols and do not need any more oxygen.
Typical high-gravity lager wort with a specific gravity of 1.060 contains approximately 150 g/l fermentable sugar and 150 mg/l free amino nitrogen. At the start of fermentation, the wort is oxygenated to achieve a dissolved concentration within the range 15±25 mg/l. It is pitched with yeast at a rate of around 1g dry wt./l, equivalent to roughly 5g wet wt./l or 12-15x 10^6 cells/ml
These pitch rates are much lower than what most homebrewers seem to think are necessary, but with much more O2 than most of us use. He's talking about lagers that will be diluted at packaging.

This is from Dr. Bamfroth
Yeasts can be classified in yet another way—according to the amount of oxygen they require before they will ferment wort efficiently. Some are satisfied when the Brewer “air-saturates” the wort—bubbles air into the wort after cooling, which introduces approximately 8 ppm. Some strains are happy with half that level, while others demand oxygen saturation (16 ppm), and yet others aren’t even satisfied with this amount of oxygen.
What is optimum can only be found by experience with the same strain and same wort. Just like pitch rates no one can just spit out some number and say it's optimum.
 

Montanaandy

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But.. but... pure oxygen/stone wort saturation is reached in just 1min (46ppm.) The second minute is entirely wasted oxygen. No?

No. There are different schools of thought as to how long to aerate using canister oxygen and a diffusion stone. It all comes down to PPM. I don't have the tools to actually measure PPM so I am guestimating and chose to do so on the high side in terms of aeration time. Dave L. from Wyeast talks about oxygenating for about 1 minute. From what I recall from the "Yeast" book, Chris White & Jamil spoke about aerating for 1.5-2 min (I will have to double check this). Others have spoken about longer or shorter times.

I have found that 120 seconds works the best for me and the styles of beer that I brew.
 

Montanaandy

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No.

From Chris White's Yeast, page 79, using a .5u air stone at 1 lpm on a five gallon batch:

30 seconds pure O2 = 5.12 ppm
60 seconds pure O2 = 9.20 ppm
120 seconds pure O2 = 14.08 ppm

(And, fwiw, 5 minutes of carboy shaking = 2.71 ppm)

hth

Cheers!
I didn't see this before I posted but this is what I was referring to. From what I recall from the book, he and JZ advocated 120 seconds which is what I have been doing. As I mentioned before, works for me and my beer...
 
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ipso

ipso

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…I remember Dan Gordon of Gordon Biersch talking about aeration of his starters with o2 for a few minutes every hour to keep the growth rate up. Here's a link to one of Dan's shows on the BN, there's 3 more I think, I'm not sure which one he talked about it on.

The Brewing Network.com - :
He did talk about stabilizing the aerobic phase via continual O2 injection at the end of the first show. Thanks for the link. (I think. You just cost me a full week+ of down time, as I found many shows I must hear. That was my first. The brief aeration part is toward the end 2:19 & at 2:24 (H:MM).)


…From Chris White's Yeast, page 79, using a .5u air stone at 1 lpm on a five gallon batch:

30 seconds pure O2 = 5.12 ppm
60 seconds pure O2 = 9.20 ppm
120 seconds pure O2 = 14.08 ppm

(And, fwiw, 5 minutes of carboy shaking = 2.71 ppm)…
Beautiful sweet authoritative information. Nice takedown day_trippr!


…Dry yeast have high levels of sterols and do not need any more oxygen…
“Yeasts can be classified in yet another way—according to the amount of oxygen they require before they will ferment wort efficiently. Some are satisfied when the Brewer “air-saturates” the wort—bubbles air into the wort after cooling, which introduces approximately 8 ppm. Some strains are happy with half that level, while others demand oxygen saturation (16 ppm), and yet others aren’t even satisfied with this amount of oxygen.” - Dr. Bamfroth
That, as well, is a spot-on crack over the left field wall for two runs. Thank you.

..But we never did get to an authoritative approach for “how long” to aerate – relative to White’s stated “3-15 hour” lag phase – and specific to a 5gal all-grain [California] ale yeast [that requires say a 68 degree fermentation temp – say with a 1000ml starter...] But.. I’ll just continue to bounce along and make assumptions, now informed by you good folk. Thanks again.
 

yinzer2

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One thing that I'm not clear on is when you aerate with the pure oxygen and a stone, is how much O2 actually goes into solution. From what I gather from TheBrewingNetwork is that the amount isn't that much. They indicate that since the bubbles don't reduce in size very much, that the headspace is filled with O2 which goes into solution as the surface area is exchanged.

To me this seems like a continual aeration during the beginning of fermentation.
 

Malticulous

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Temperature has a small effect the solubility too.

If the fermenter was sealed under pressure until it equalized, the change of the weight of the O2 tank would give you the amount of O2 in solution. You would about have to use a keg for fermenter.

You could use the before and after weights of the fermenter. It would take a pretty good scale because your only looking at a few grams.
 
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