What is "Alt" beer

[Protos]

There is a recipe for Zum Uerige's Altbier in The Secrets of Master Brewers by Jeff Allworth.
As much close to the real thing as the Ueriges were willing to reveal.
It somewhat differs from the recipe that passedpawn cited above but just in tiny details.
There is some Caramalt and Roast Malt in it, in microscopic doses.
Compared to it, Kaiser's recipe seems to be three times more liberal with Crystal.

 

[wepeeler]

Mash temp? Ferm temp? Hop schedule?
(inquiring minds want to know, if available)

152F Mash
62F to start, 65F mid ferm, 68F to finish
90 min boil
60 in Magnum 36 IBU
12 min German Tettnang 10 IBU

 

[Shenanigans]

View attachment 783158


That's the most popular homebrew Altbier recipe I know among the community in Germany.
Still have to try it but it's supposed to be a great Schumacher clone.

Brewed a version of this up on Saturday.
Used Saphir instead of Mittlefrüh for bittering, also overlooked that it should be first wort but only boiled for 75 min not 90.
Did a one step 60 min mash at 152.
Yeast was WLP036 but has as similar attenuation to Brewferm Top and should hopefully be nicer than that dry yeast.

I will report back in March sometime after it has had a month to lager.

 

[wepeeler]

Brewing up an Altbier today for a competition for late Feb. The last batch I made was definitely in my top 3 homebrews ever. My brew club went nuts over it. Fingers crossed!

79% Pilsner
15% Munich
2% Carafa II
2% Caramunich I
2% Pale Chocolate
Wyeast 2565
Tettnang hops

Kegged this up and it smells a little more sulfur-y than I care for. Hopefully it dissipates. Wish I could have let it go another week (3 total) in primary, but I was crunched for time for the competition. I want it to be as clear as possible. I'll report back how the scores go.

 

[dmtaylor]

Kegged this up and it smells a little more sulfur-y than I care for. Hopefully it dissipates. Wish I could have let it go another week (3 total) in primary, but I was crunched for time for the competition. I want it to be as clear as possible. I'll report back how the scores go.

Only 3 weeks old, with Wyeast 2565? Ruh-roh. In my experience with this yeast it takes at least 5-6 weeks to clear. With cold and gelatin, *maybe* you could knock a week or two off of that.

 

[wepeeler]

Only 3 weeks old, with Wyeast 2565? Ruh-roh. In my experience with this yeast it takes at least 5-6 weeks to clear. With cold and gelatin, *maybe* you could knock a week or two off of that.

I've had it crystal clear 2 weeks after kegging. This is 3rd generation, and I Biofine Clear in keg. Works like a miracle.

 

[Shenanigans]

Brewed a version of this up on Saturday.
Used Saphir instead of Mittlefrüh for bittering, also overlooked that it should be first wort but only boiled for 75 min not 90.
Did a one step 60 min mash at 152.
Yeast was WLP036 but has as similar attenuation to Brewferm Top and should hopefully be nicer than that dry yeast.

I will report back in March sometime after it has had a month to lager.

My plan was to bottle this after two weeks, bottle condition for 2 or 3 weeks and then lager at 1 or 2oC for a few weeks.
Due to convenience and needing my kegator soon I just lagered it at 2oC for 2 weeks in the primary after 12 days.
I then bottled it on Saturday.
Surprisingly even after 15 days cold crashing after only 3 or 4 days the bottles already have a decent amout of CO2.
Tastes very promising already.

 

[balrog]

I've had it crystal clear 2 weeks after kegging. This is 3rd generation, and I Biofine Clear in keg. Works like a miracle.

How much Biofine Clear, how exactly used, time/temp/process.
Very curious.

 

[wepeeler]

How much Biofine Clear, how exactly used, time/temp/process.
Very curious.

I use 1 oz per 5 gallons straight into the keg before racking the beer on top. My keezer is set to 38F. I know @Dgallo has great success with 1-2ml per 5 gallon. "Dosage Rates: 1/4 Tbsp (3 ml or 1/10oz) to as much as 2 Tbsp (31 ml or 1 fluid oz.) per 5 gallon batch of beer."

I always did 1 oz per 5 gal, because the first bottle I ever got was 1 oz. I now buy it in bulk. Biofine Clear Clarifier | MoreBeer

 

[Dgallo]

I use 1 oz per 5 gallons straight into the keg before racking the beer on top. My keezer is set to 38F. I know @Dgallo has great success with 1-2ml per 5 gallon. "Dosage Rates: 1/4 Tbsp (3 ml or 1/10oz) to as much as 2 Tbsp (31 ml or 1 fluid oz.) per 5 gallon batch of beer."

I always did 1 oz per 5 gal, because the first bottle I ever got was 1 oz. I now buy it in bulk. Biofine Clear

Deleted. Read wrong

 

[rmr9]

Collected 3 of the 4 breweries I visited at the altstadt in Düsseldorf! All that’s left is the Schumacher. I might need to fire up another alt to drink out of them!

 

[Brooothru]

View attachment 814503
Collected 3 of the 4 breweries I visited at the altstadt in Düsseldorf! All that’s left is the Schumacher. I might need to fire up another alt to drink out of them!

In the late 90s I traveled frequently from the 'States to Dusseldorf, especially in the summer of 1998. A lot of great memories from that year, and many great alt biers. Years later I had a cab driver in Aruba who was German. We got to talking and he told me he had grown up in Dusseldorf. I related how I'd really enjoyed the outdoor tables in the summer at Schlosser Alt braurie, only to learn that he'd grown up in an apartment directly above it. Truly a small world.

 

[wepeeler]

Kegged this up and it smells a little more sulfur-y than I care for. Hopefully it dissipates. Wish I could have let it go another week (3 total) in primary, but I was crunched for time for the competition. I want it to be as clear as possible. I'll report back how the scores go.

Welp, the beer didn't place. More of a "don't try to rush this beer" moment, than me messing up the recipe. I have a feeling if I let the yeast clean up, the beer would have turned out fine. That being said, I have a love hate relationship with 2565. When it works, it WORKS. When it doesn't, it DOESN'T. SO, I'm brewing this Alt again with Omega Kolsch II, which works fantastic for my Kolsch. I've got about 9 weeks to the competition, so if this batch doesn't work out how I think it will, I'll at least have another go at it.

80% Weyermann Pils
13.4% Weyermann Munich
2.2% Carafa II
2.2% Caramunich I
2.2% Pale Chocolate

Mash 151-152F
Omega Kolsch II yeast - Ferment 65F

Fingers crossed. The batch before the last batch was killer.

 

[rmr9]

Did you get some good comments and feedback from the judges at least?

 

[wepeeler]

Did you get some good comments and feedback from the judges at least?

Waiting on the sheets. They told us 2-3 weeks, which to me is insane.

BUT, I knew I had sulfur issues going in. So I'm very interested in the comments and feedback.

 

[wepeeler]

I contacted Omega about their Kolsch II for an Altbier, and they said it tends to struggle a bit below 65F. They said keep right around 65F for the cleanest fermentation. I'll be using it for an Altbier and a Kolsch tomorrow and Friday, respectively.

 

[wepeeler]

Here are the 2 scoresheets from the Alt. Neither judge commented on sulfur or metallic taste, which I clearly taste. Got better scores than I expected, but there is work to be done! I already have the next batch fermenting! I used Omega Kolsch II vs 2565, which was used for the judged beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

Neither scoresheet says anything about bitterness, which is a hallmark of this beer style. Both "judges" are professional brewers. I hope you didn't pay a lot of money to not have any BJCP judges judge your beer.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Neither scoresheet says anything about bitterness, which is a hallmark of this beer style. Both "judges" are professional brewers. I hope you didn't pay a lot of money to not have any BJCP judges judge your beer.

But as I posted in #55, don't be misled by the weirdness and atypicality of Uerig, per Piendl the Dusseldorf alts (excluding Uerig) average just under 30 IBU (BU:GU 62%), whereas Uerig is 48 IBU (BU:GU 102%) and in Munster they can go down to 12 IBU. I wouldn't call BU:GU 62% particularly bitter.

 

[wepeeler]

Neither scoresheet says anything about bitterness, which is a hallmark of this beer style. Both "judges" are professional brewers. I hope you didn't pay a lot of money to not have any BJCP judges judge your beer.

1st judge said, "low hop presence. Sight bite in finish, herbal in character." Took that as bitterness, and needed more malt for balancing.

2nd judge said, "flavor could showcase a bit more malt body for balance." Same thing here.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

@wepeeler those are decent scores IMO. Just curious with context. Based on the scoresheets comments, what was your calculated IBUs? Agree that based on the comments, they wanted a little more "amped" up version of your beer. They both talk about balance with a little low on maltiness. Given that comment and the low hop presence it would seem that both bitterness and maltiness could increase? Glad you got some decent comments for you to work off of though.

 

[wepeeler]

@wepeeler those are decent scores IMO. Just curious with context. Based on the scoresheets comments, what was your calculated IBUs? Agree that based on the comments, they wanted a little more "amped" up version of your beer. They both talk about balance with a little low on maltiness. Given that comment and the low hop presence it would seem that both bitterness and maltiness could increase? Glad you got some decent comments for you to work off of though.

It's a good beer

 

[dmtaylor]

It's a good beer

Looks good to me. I wouldn't change anything. Competitions are a crapshoot. If you entered the same beer again into another competition, you might get the same score with totally different comments, or might score a little higher than you got above, as your recipe is pretty much spot on.

 

[wepeeler]

Kegged up yet another Alt batch for a competition in May. Omega Kolsch II yeast this time around. First sample today was fantastic. Did a Kolsch with this yeast as well, and it's shaping up to be one of my best so far. Going to be very difficult to hang onto these for 2 months...

Beers were fermented at 66F for 14 and 13 days, respectively.

 

[Group W]

Kegged up yet another Alt batch for a competition in May. Omega Kolsch II yeast this time around. First sample today was fantastic. Did a Kolsch with this yeast as well, and it's shaping up to be one of my best so far. Going to be very difficult to hang onto these for 2 months...

Beers were fermented at 66F for 14 and 13 days, respectively.

I’m curious how much ester profile you are getting at 66F?

I’m doing a Kolsch now with dry Lallemand Kolsch yeast at 62F. So many years of brewing IPAs has me leery of going over 64F. When I brew a Dunkle I prefer to lean colder for clove over warmer for banana.

 

[dmtaylor]

When I brew a Dunkle I prefer to lean colder for clove over warmer for banana.

Ah... You mean dunkelweizen, as opposed to Munich dunkles.

 

[wepeeler]

I’m curious how much ester profile you are getting at 66F?

I’m doing a Kolsch now with dry Lallemand Kolsch yeast at 62F. So many years of brewing IPAs has me leery of going over 64F. When I brew a Dunkle I prefer to lean colder for clove over warmer for banana.

Omega Kolsch II best temp is supposedly between 65-69F. Warmer fermenter than regular Kolsch yeast and better floccing. Little to no sulfur. I kegged in 14 days from brew day. Kolsch II

I was debating on keeping it on the yeast for another week, as I've had sulfur issues with Wyeast 2565 and most people told me to leave it on the yeast longer to clean up. I emailed Omega and they told me that OKII throws very little sulfur, but to taste before packaging if I could. I decided to go for it and keg on day 14 and NO sulfur. Both the Alt and Kolsch are clean as a whistle. Not many esters, imo either.

 

[Spartan1979]

I'm brewing my Altbier today. I usually use WY1007 but I'm trying SafAle K-97. I usually ferment at 60 but the specs for this yeast say at least 64 so I guess I'll try that.

 

[Group W]

Ah... You mean dunkelweizen, as opposed to Munich dunkles.

Yes, it’s been a while. That was a surprisingly nice beer coming from an IPA guy.

 

[Group W]

I'm brewing my Altbier today. I usually use WY1007 but I'm trying SafAle K-97. I usually ferment at 60 but the specs for this yeast say at least 64 so I guess I'll try that.

I started my last Alt with K97 at 60F and it came out great. Started increasing the temp 1F/day at 3 days and let it hold at 66F. 64 should be fine.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I'm brewing my Altbier today. I usually use WY1007 but I'm trying SafAle K-97. I usually ferment at 60 but the specs for this yeast say at least 64 so I guess I'll try that.

When it’s done, would you mind posting about how this yeast flocked? I brewed another style and it’s not clearing even after bottling and sitting in the fridge.

 

[wepeeler]

When it’s done, would you mind posting about how this yeast flocked? I brewed another style and it’s not clearing even after bottling and sitting in the fridge.

K-97 is a pain in the neck for floccing. I used Biofine clear, and it still took weeks to clear. It never got as clear as any other Kolsch yeast I've used. It also is my least favorite, flavor-wise.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

K-97 is a pain in the neck for floccing. I used Biofine clear, and it still took weeks to clear. It never got as clear as any other Kolsch yeast I've used. It also is my least favorite, flavor-wise.

My limited knowledge is that is typical of kolsch yeast, but I’ve brewed with white labs kolsch and didn’t run into a problem. I don’t typically use finings following fermentation, but for the style… Alt is on my to brew list.

 

[wepeeler]

My limited knowledge is that is typical of kolsch yeast, but I’ve brewed with white labs kolsch and didn’t run into a problem. I don’t typically use finings following fermentation, but for the style… Alt is on my to brew list.

Yes, most Kolsch yeasts are stubborn. I've had decent success with Imperial Dieter and WLP029. Both flocced fairly well with Biofine Clear in the keg. K97 was by far the worst. Omega Kolsch II is by far the best floccer.

 

[Brooothru]

Yes, most Kolsch yeasts are stubborn. I've had decent success with Imperial Dieter and WLP029. Both flocced fairly well with Biofine Clear in the keg. K97 was by far the worst. Omega Kolsch II is by far the best floccer.

I bought some "Dieter" specifically for the purpose of brewing a Kolsch (it's assumed to be PJ Fruh yeast, which was my favorite Kolsch in Koln. Supposedly it flocs quite quickly and drops clear without filtering, though traditional Kolner beer is required to be filtered. Even though it's a violation of Reinheitsgebot, I generally dose my clear beers with Biofine. I haven't yet brewed with the Deiter as compared to WLP-029 (also reputed to be PJ Fruh), but my recollection of WLP-029 is that took a loooong time to drop and wasn't very clear without fining. I almost never filter beer, probably not once in the last 3 or 4 years. It's been two years since I last attempted a Kolsch, which 'placed' in competition but was generally just "O.K."

My understanding re: Dieter is that it is also an appropriate yeast for Alt bier as well as Kolsch. In my many travels to Germany, I spent far more time in Dusseldorf, though haven't attempted brewing an Alt in likely fifteen years or more. I enjoyed many Alts, though when in Germany I was always drawn more to Helles, Kolsch or Pils, especially in Frankfurt and Munich where Kolsch and Alt are rarely found. Altbier always reminded me of American Ambers, especially Alaskan Amber, which I like, but not worth traveling half way around the world to drink. Maybe if Dieter works out in the Kolsch I'll give it a go in another Alt attempt.

 

[wepeeler]

I bought some "Dieter" specifically for the purpose of brewing a Kolsch (it's assumed to be PJ Fruh yeast, which was my favorite Kolsch in Koln. Supposedly it flocs quite quickly and drops clear without filtering, though traditional Kolner beer is required to be filtered. Even though it's a violation of Reinheitsgebot, I generally dose my clear beers with Biofine. I haven't yet brewed with the Deiter as compared to WLP-029 (also reputed to be PJ Fruh), but my recollection of WLP-029 is that took a loooong time to drop and wasn't very clear without fining. I almost never filter beer, probably not once in the last 3 or 4 years. It's been two years since I last attempted a Kolsch, which 'placed' in competition but was generally just "O.K."

My understanding re: Dieter is that it is also an appropriate yeast for Alt bier as well as Kolsch. In my many travels to Germany, I spent far more time in Dusseldorf, though haven't attempted brewing an Alt in likely fifteen years or more. I enjoyed many Alts, though when in Germany I was always drawn more to Helles, Kolsch or Pils, especially in Frankfurt and Munich where Kolsch and Alt are rarely found. Altbier always reminded me of American Ambers, especially Alaskan Amber, which I like, but not worth traveling half way around the world to drink. Maybe if Dieter works out in the Kolsch I'll give it a go in another Alt attempt.

Very interesting!

Can't remember if I ever used Dieter for an Alt, but I brewed my first 10-15 batches of Kolsch with it. I started off loving it, and then for whatever reason, probably process, I couldn't get consistent results with it. I do Biofine all my beers except for NEIPAs, so clearing hasn't really been an issue. Dieter, WLP029, Wyeast 2565 and Omega Kolsch II have all dropped clear. K97 was the only one that wasn't brilliant. It almost had a chill haze look to it.

My understanding for Kolsch yeasts is that they can make nice Alts, BUT Alt yeasts (Dusseldorf) don't make Kolsches. Depends who you talk to, like all walks of life!

I can understand why you went the Helles, Kolsch and Pils route when in Germany. I would lean that way myself. I would love to get to Europe and taste some local beer. On the bucket list for sure!

The only Altbier that I've been exposed to is Long Trail Ale (VT). That was basically their house beer when they took off in the 90s. It remains a staple, and I like to get a 6 pack every once in awhile for old time's sake. Not sure if it tastes anything like a true European Altbier, but it certainly quenches my thirst. Malty, but dry and crisp.

 

[balrog]

When it’s done, would you mind posting about how this yeast flocked? I brewed another style and it’s not clearing even after bottling and sitting in the fridge.

I was really underwhelmed by K97, much preferring my fav WY1007, which is also not a super floccer, but K97 was slow to start, had some interesting esters no clear definition of tart or grape but something, and then stayed cloudy for frikin ever.

 

[Brooothru]

I was really underwhelmed by K97, much preferring my fav WY1007, which is also not a super floccer, but K97 was slow to start, had some interesting esters no clear definition of tart or grape but something, and then stayed cloudy for frikin ever.

You brewed it in a firkin?