What do the macros think about HSA?

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Bilsch

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Lots of useful information here where Sierra Nevada and Weihenstephaner brewmasters discuss lager beer and advanced brewing in general. For the really interesting parts about oxygen in the brewhouse skip ahead to 1:03:40

 
Macro vs home-brew scale probably makes a big difference. Commercial wort and beer get put under considerable stresses compared with home brew. On my 'lager challenge' journey I now have a number of successful lagers under my belt without any consideration for HSA. Not a hint of oxidation in any of them. A few were stored for months, too. I might have a higher threshold for detecting oxidation, I don't know. I follow my own standard procedures to keep my brewing process consistent. What I do know, though, is many of the commercial lagers I've tried in Norway have been oxidised. Quite badly in some cases.
 
Macro vs home-brew scale probably makes a big difference. Commercial wort and beer get put under considerable stresses compared with home brew.

I think it depends on which "stresses" we consider. Shear forces (pumps, mixers, etc...) are probably higher at the commercial scale, due to more powerful equipment, as well as hydrostatic pressure during fermentation, due to bigger vessels. Oxidation, maybe not so much: the square-cube law makes wort relatively much more exposed to the air in homebrewing.

On my 'lager challenge' journey I now have a number of successful lagers under my belt without any consideration for HSA. Not a hint of oxidation in any of them. A few were stored for months, too. I might have a higher threshold for detecting oxidation, I don't know. I follow my own standard procedures to keep my brewing process consistent. What I do know, though, is many of the commercial lagers I've tried in Norway have been oxidised. Quite badly in some cases.

Detecting oxidation is problematic by itself. All the stale/paperboard/whatever flavors are just the final stage, but the first step of oxidation/staling is just to lose some existing flavors, and you need to know those initial flavors very well to detect their loss. If those flavors are lost at the very beginning (mash), there's no way to tell.

Unfortunately I don't see a way to find out how HSA is damaging our wort without taking steps to limit it and see (taste) what happens.
 
Unfortunately I don't see a way to find out how HSA is damaging our wort without taking steps to limit it and see (taste) what happens.

Early on when I was exploring this, I looked for some of the German beers that are supposed to exhibit those characteristics. I couldn't find any.

I drew the same conclusion you have--the only way I could figure out if HSA was a thing was to employ LODO techniques and see for myself.

Lo and behold, I was shocked at how much difference it made even doing less than perfect control. I'm planning on brewing a Pils this week using LODO techniques. When I've brewed them in the past it's like getting punched in the mouth with Pilsner flavor.

I just had a mash cap made for my mash tun. I couldn't find a suitable material so I ended up taking a kettle lid and cutting off the flange that keeps it from falling into the kettle. That's about as good as I can do.

mashcap2.jpg
 
I know when I see videos of professional brewing in action it is not uncommon to see where the brewer is not particularly concerned about HSA.

I visited a friend at a decent sized independent brewery. As the hot wort was being transferred from one vessel to type next, wort was getting splashed and agitated. This was clearly contrary to homebrewer's conventional wisdom about HSA.

I commented, "Wow that is pretty harsh transfer. Aren't you guys worried about HSA?"
"HSA. What is HSA?"
I gave home the spiel about what HSA is, how it get induced and HSA makes beer that tastes stale like wet cardboard.
"Well I do not know about that. We have been transferring hit hit wort like thus for years. Nobody has ever told us our beer tastes like wet cardboard."
 
I know when I see videos of professional brewing in action it is not uncommon to see where the brewer is not particularly concerned about HSA.

I visited a friend at a decent sized independent brewery. As the hot wort was being transferred from one vessel to type next, wort was getting splashed and agitated. This was clearly contrary to homebrewer's conventional wisdom about HSA.

I commented, "Wow that is pretty harsh transfer. Aren't you guys worried about HSA?"
"HSA. What is HSA?"
I gave home the spiel about what HSA is, how it get induced and HSA makes beer that tastes stale like wet cardboard.
"Well I do not know about that. We have been transferring hit hit wort like thus for years. Nobody has ever told us our beer tastes like wet cardboard."

I'm curious enough about the process to try it out for myself soon.

I have never seen any proponent of HSA oxidation mitigation on here write that HSA made beer taste like wet cardboard. I've only heard of that referred to as the very end stage of poor cold side handling. If ignoring HSA resulted in wet cardboard, then there would probably be less debate about it.
 
I'm curious enough about the process to try it out for myself soon.

I have never seen any proponent of HSA oxidation mitigation on here write that HSA made beer taste like wet cardboard. I've only heard of that referred to as the very end stage of poor cold side handling. If ignoring HSA resulted in wet cardboard, then there would probably be less debate about it.

The home brewers most common conception is that HSA is bad and produces off flavors. Or at least HSA is best to be avoided and certainly do nothing to induce HSA.

The questions raised
How easy is HSA to create?
How bad are the off flavors?
Is HSA something the rational or practical home brewers need to be distracted by?

The link below mentions wet cardboard. I am pretty sue Palladian or Palmer write about HSA and wet cardboard as well.

https://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/
Interesting that I found a couple references that said at one time on brewing history, HSA was good and induced good characteristics to your bee.
 
The home brewers most common conception is that HSA is bad and produces off flavors. Or at least HSA is best to be avoided and certainly do nothing to induce HSA.

The questions raised
How easy is HSA to create?
How bad are the off flavors?
Is HSA something the rational or practical home brewers need to be distracted by?

The link below mentions wet cardboard. I am pretty sue Palladian or Palmer write about HSA and wet cardboard as well.

https://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/
Interesting that I found a couple references that said at one time on brewing history, HSA was good and induced good characteristics to your bee.

What's your level of experience with reading what the HSA proponents here have written about it? I'm not one of the proponents but it seems like you're arguing against things that the proponents don't claim.


The home brewers most common conception is that HSA is bad and produces off flavors. Or at least HSA is best to be avoided and certainly do nothing to induce HSA.
I'd say the most common homebrewer conception is that HSA isn't real/isn't something to worry about, unless you are talking about the specific LODO subforum here. There seem to be relatively few people that believe it's worth doing even on Homebrewtalk in general, a homebrew forum that seems to skew towards the people that are very into homebrewing.

How easy is HSA to create?
If what I've read in the LODO subforum is true, very easy.


How bad are the off flavors?
My understanding from what I've read here is that it mostly causes a loss of flavor.


How bad are the off flavors?
Since as above it is supposed to be a loss of flavor, I'd say not bad by this standard. Less flavorful isn't bad or good, it's just less.


Is HSA something the rational or practical home brewers need to be distracted by?
Like everything in homebrewing, that's something that each brewer needs to decide for themselves. That's why I'm going to test it. There are enough people here that seem rational that say there's something to it that I think it's worth trying out.


The link below mentions wet cardboard. I am pretty sue Palladian or Palmer write about HSA and wet cardboard as well.

That Brulosophy article was not testing LODO, he was testing if there was a difference between brewing without attention to HSA and deliberately introducing more HSA; should people who are brewing "normally" take any special care to not aerate their hot wort?
The cardboard flavor reference is from How to Brew. That article was from 2014, so was from the old edition of How to Brew. I wonder if there were any updates on that in the newest edition of the book.
 
I'd say the most common homebrewer conception is that HSA isn't real/isn't something to worry about, unless you are talking about the specific LODO subforum here.

Sorry, I did not establish the era I was referring to. There was time (like 10-15 years go) where theory of HSA was widely accepted as fact.

Home brewing forums were rich with replies that warned of inadequate diligence against HSA.
 
I have spoken with professional brewers from local breweries and brought up the subject of HSA in conversation. Two of them who both studied at Siebel had read about it in texts but none of them thought it mattered at small brewery scale. A friend of mine who has a PhD in chemistry, who works in liquid chromatography with breweries in several states was unfamiliar with HSA and said it wasn't even something they look for in their sampling... He actually writes the protocols that identify target signatures of all the relevant compounds to pick them out from the mass of raw data. He thought that HSA sounded like superstition.

Seems that HSA is at most a macrobrewery concern, and it does not matter at all on a homebrewing scale. Now having heard it from a few professional brewers and a qualified chemist, I'm really kinda done with the whole subject.
 
I have spoken with professional brewers from local breweries and brought up the subject of HSA in conversation. Two of them who both studied at Siebel had read about it in texts but none of them thought it mattered at small brewery scale.

It would be nice to know why it wouldn't matter at small scale though, something which is never explained.

A friend of mine who has a PhD in chemistry, who works in liquid chromatography with breweries in several states was unfamiliar with HSA and said it wasn't even something they look for in their sampling... He actually writes the protocols that identify target signatures of all the relevant compounds to pick them out from the mass of raw data. He thought that HSA sounded like superstition.

I find this weird: regardless of what one thinks, knows, and does, about this topic, it's pretty hard to not having even heard about it if one has any professional background in brewing. Open most common textbooks, or attend professional courses, and it's discussed.

Seems that HSA is at most a macrobrewery concern, and it does not matter at all on a homebrewing scale. Now having heard it from a few professional brewers and a qualified chemist, I'm really kinda done with the whole subject.

The funny thing is that this very discussion started from professionals saying the opposite, but of course everyone is free to choose who to trust (or "what" to trust, if we choose our palate).
 
Macros produce far too much beer for local consumption therefore have to distribute their products regionally and nationally, to keep share holders happy. Internationally not that long ago, before mergers and acquisitions and licences to brew 'exotic' beers locally. So, for macros, product stability and shelf life have always been a concern. In fact, it's an active field in industrial brewing science. However, there is no consensus among the experts re HSA. There's insufficient data. It's nothing more than a plausible theory. Even if it is a real thing, and I suspect it is for some tasters, it's just potentially one of numerous factors impacting product stability. As far as I can tell, the claimed impacts don't extrapolate to the home-brew batches I brew in my kitchen and ferment in my basement. I respect some believe HSA is a thing, but I don't accept subjective opinions as data. Nor do I accept a collection of cherry-picked publications as a consensus. We know, for example, adding ascorbic acid to the mash increases the levels of antioxidants post boil, but the result might only be detectable as 'better' by those who might express hypersensitivity to some things most don't. We're clearly a very long way from being able to show with confidence any benefits to controlling so-called HSA. I don't see any reason in pushing a theory with too much enthusiasm when there's a lack of convincing data to back it up. It's possible some macros have the data for their own process, but that's their property and there's little reason for them to share it with competitors. Unfortunately, they're the only ones interested with the resources to test the hypothesis properly.
 
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One thing that's interesting in the LODO/HSA discussions is you frequently have people saying "I talked to so-and-so and it works and is important, that's why I do it." And other people saying "I talked to so-and-so and they said it's bogus, that's why I'm not doing it." This is different than most debates on process because of the effort required to try it out for yourself. It's obviously very easy to test out adding hops at different times, but the price of entry seems too steep for many of us.

I mentioned on another string here I'm going to do an experiment. This seems like such a debatable subject, with logic on both sides, that I want to try it out for myself to see the differences. And the purported rewards are enticing enough for me.

That said, I'm going to do the bits of the process that are not a major change in process for me to do:

1. I'll try the YOS strike water. I already add Gypsum, CaCl, Epsom Salts, Campden tablet, and lactic acid to my strike water when preparing it the night before. So adding some yeast and priming sugar is not a big additional effort.
2. I'm also going to make another batch with ascorbic acid, as there is another thread I've read on here that someone found dramatic improvements in taste. This will be a different batch than the YOS strike water batch.

3. I'm not going to do the mash cap, because at present, I don't have an easy idea of what to use for this, and don't feel like making something up. So this may change if I happen to find something laying around that would work.
4. I'm not going to do the underletting of the strike water into my mash tun filled with grain. My brew process involves utilizing the timer feature on my BrewCommander to start heating my strike water while I'm still sleeping. I already use a separate vessel (Mash & Boil) to heat my sparge water (also on a timer while I'm sleeping), and my boil kettle doesn't have a good temperature probe location for just the volume of strike water. So I don't have an easy way of doing this. I'll just try to be careful while doughing in.

5. My recirc water from RIMS already comes through an AutoSparge attachment with a hose laying on top of the grain bed, so that will eliminate splashing/aeration from that.
6. I already boil at a reduced power level to just have a rolling boil, not a volcanic eruption boil.
7. I already do closed transfers on the cold side into purged kegs.

I think I can try this and see if it makes a difference. Maybe I'm not doing enough LODO techniques, so it won't deliver on results. But I think this is about the limit I'm willing to go with effort, so if it requires more than this, it won't be something I'd incorporate into my brew process anyway.
 
However, there is no consensus among the experts re HSA. There's insufficient data. It's nothing more than a plausible theory.

If your experts are non degreed craft Brewers then yes I’d agree there is no consensus. However there is an abundance of data on this very subject in both professional brewing literature and hundreds of scientific papers. Because you refuse to go looking for it does not constitute insufficient. And no, I’m not going to do your homework for you.
 
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If your experts are non degreed craft Brewers then yes I’d agree there is no consensus. However there is an abundance of data on this very subject in both professional brewing literature and hundreds of scientific papers. Because you refuse to go looking for it does not constitute insufficient. And no, I’m not going to do your homework for you.

This contains some relevant information.

Edit: There's this and even this, but where's the 'abundance of data'? Looks like it's all vanished back into thin air 🤷‍♂️
 
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Keep the personal comments out of the discussion. Edits were made so that relevant information could remain.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator
 
Macros produce far too much beer for local consumption therefore have to distribute their products regionally and nationally, to keep share holders happy. Internationally not that long ago, before mergers and acquisitions and licences to brew 'exotic' beers locally. So, for macros, product stability and shelf life have always been a concern. In fact, it's an active field in industrial brewing science. However, there is no consensus among the experts re HSA. There's insufficient data. It's nothing more than a plausible theory.

Not really, all the sources I got access to said the same things. If you want somewhat of a comprehensive overview (rather than navigating the whole literature, which can be a daunting task), see 'Technology Brewing and Malting' in the relevant sections; there are other books talking about the detrimental effects of oxidation on the hot side but that's a pretty thorough one, with many references. If you prefer a list of relevant academic articles, you can find some relevant papers here (in the resources section).

Also, there is a misconception here: hot-side oxidation affects both flavor stability and flavor itself (and color, but let's just forget about it); the former may or may not be relevant for homebrewers depending on their goals, but the latter is going to affect anyone equally.

Even if it is a real thing, and I suspect it is for some tasters, it's just potentially one of numerous factors impacting product stability.

For sure.

As far as I can tell, the claimed impacts don't extrapolate to the home-brew batches I brew in my kitchen and ferment in my basement.

What makes you think that? Vessel geometry is not on our side.

I respect some believe HSA is a thing, but I don't accept subjective opinions as data. Nor do I accept a collection of cherry-picked publications as a consensus.

Cherry-picking means selectively using some sources while deliberately ignoring others: what are the sources being ignored here?

We know, for example, adding ascorbic acid to the mash increases the levels of antioxidants post boil, but the result might only be detectable as 'better' by those who might express hypersensitivity to some things most don't. We're clearly a very long way from being able to show with confidence any benefits to controlling so-called HSA. I don't see any reason in pushing a theory with too much enthusiasm when there's a lack of convincing data to back it up. It's possible some macros have the data for their own process, but that's their property and there's little reason for them to share it with competitors. Unfortunately, they're the only ones interested with the resources to test the hypothesis properly.

Let's see it from another perspective: trying it isn't really a long way, is it? Use some dry yeast to scavenge oxygen from water, throw in some antioxidants, dough in carefully, use a mash cap, don't sparge, boil gently, and if your cold-side practices are on point then there is not much else to do. Underletting and spunding may be slightly more challenging depending on equipment but that really isn't much harder than other things homebrewers do... without wondering what the academic consensus about them is, I would say. :)

This contains some relevant information.

Edit: There's this and even this, but where's the 'abundance of data'? Looks like it's all vanished back into thin air 🤷‍♂️

Are you just linking search results to prove your point or the links are broken? I tried to list some sources I personally found interesting above.
 
It appears the video starting this thread is a consensus among two real experts.
Experts in what, selling beer or scientific research? The opinions of two brewers on YouTube means what? If people want to play science the least they could do is get a grip on how it works.
 
I provided a link (and my personal suggestion, for what it's worth) in the post above.
Maybe we disagree in what 'peer reviewed research' means. I'm not interested in what's published in digital magazines. All I'm expecting is some credible scientific data collected by experts who know what they're doing and have the resources to do so. Without that it's just talking the talk, which I don't find particularly persuasive. I can't accept theories based on subjective opinions. That's not how things work in the real world.
 
Maybe we disagree in what 'peer reviewed research' means. I'm not interested in what's published in digital magazines. All I'm expecting is some credible scientific data collected by experts who know what they're doing and have the resources to do so. Without that it's just talking the talk, which I don't find particularly persuasive. I can't accept theories based on subjective opinions. That's not how things work in the real world.

What are you talking about? There is a long list of peer-reviewed articles there.
 
Maybe we disagree in what 'peer reviewed research' means. I'm not interested in what's published in digital magazines. All I'm expecting is some credible scientific data collected by experts who know what they're doing and have the resources to do so. Without that it's just talking the talk, which I don't find particularly persuasive. I can't accept theories based on subjective opinions. That's not how things work in the real world.

There are many studies and much research going back 30 years or more. But I suspect it won't really matter to you either way and that is fine. I don't think anyone feels the need to convince you, only correct you when you say things like there is no evidence, recearch or consensus etc. which is demonstrably false.
 
What are you talking about? There is a long list of peer-reviewed articles there.
I stopped after skimming the 'About' section. No offense to computer or electrical engineers, but they aren't the kind of experts I had in mind.
 
There are many studies and much research going back 30 years or more. But I suspect it won't really matter to you either way and that is fine. I don't think anyone feels the need to convince you, only correct you when you say things like there is no evidence, recearch or consensus etc. which is demonstrably false.
Do you understand how science works?
 
Experts in what, selling beer or scientific research? The opinions of two brewers on YouTube means what? If people want to play science the least they could do is get a grip on how it works.
You might want to stop digging deeper here... The head brewer at Weihenstephan is one of the most prestigious positions in the brewing world and you equate a two hour interview as 'some guy on YouTube'? He explained their entire process is built around avoiding oxygen. What more evidence does one need to know that the real brewers "in the know" are focused on this stuff?
 
You might want to stop digging deeper here... The head brewer at Weihenstephan is one of the most prestigious positions in the brewing world and you equate a two hour interview as 'some guy on YouTube'? He explained their entire process is built around avoiding oxygen. What more evidence does one need to know that the real brewers "in the know" are focused on this stuff?
Anyone can brew excellent beer regardless. So does this head brewer on youtube have any credible data that can be confirmed independently? Or is he just talking the talk, offering his opinions?
 
I stopped after skimming the 'About' section. No offense to computer or electrical engineers, but they aren't the kind of experts I had in mind.

Now who's cherry-picking :)

If you would just read the resource page, rather than browsing the website looking for something you don't like, you would find that the articles listed there are (of course) written by researchers, peer-reviewed, and completely unrelated to the website. I couldn't provide a direct link to the page due to this forum's censorship, but I'm sure you can solve the issue.
 
Now who's cherry-picking :)

If you would just read the resource page, rather than browsing the website looking for something you don't like, you would find that the articles listed there are (of course) written by researchers, peer-reviewed, and completely unrelated to the website. I couldn't provide a direct link to the page due to this forum's censorship, but I'm sure you can solve the issue.
You don't understand what 'cherry-picking' means either? I'm not making the claims here about HSA. I'm merely asking for some credible, peer reviewed, scientific research that confirms HSA is a phenomenon we should consider. That's too much to ask for, evidently. Why is that? Is it a fringe movement? A cult?
 
There will always be those few who never agree but at this point it really doesn't matter anymore. The tide has turned and the old dogma about HSA is mostly dead now or at least a few inches from the grave. This is great news for all members, especially the newer ones, who now have a chance to actually hear about these concepts, and decide for themselves, without it being stomped out of sight with no regard for the science.
 
There will always be those few who never agree but at this point it really doesn't matter anymore. The tide has turned and the old dogma about HSA is mostly dead now or at least a few inches from the grave. This is great news for all members, especially the newer ones, who now have a chance to actually hear about these concepts, and decide for themselves, without it being stomped out of sight with no regard for the science.
As a scientist, I don't accept your beliefs. Nor do I reject them. Again, without credible data it's just talking the talk. Data. Data. Data.
 
As a scientist, I don't accept your beliefs. Nor do I reject them. Again, without credible data it's just talking the talk. Data. Data. Data.

You come and kick the door down in my thread and insist there isn't any consensus nor credible proof in the face of exactly that. Sorry we didn't also include references that met your terribly high standard for acceptance but that wasn't the point of my thread. Instead here we have provided opinions and experience from degreed brew masters from two of the best breweries in the world. For most people here though that is some pretty great evidence. For the additional research and data, there is much, you will have to do your own homework since it is not my job to spoon feed you. You can go find it like I did, or not. I really don't care.

You are also welcome to post here all the credible data data data you find to the contrary.
 
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Data. Data. Data. I find it a little bit ironic that the theory of HSA is actually so testable, e.g., by mass spec analysis, but nothing to date suggesting home brewers are better off changing their hot side procedures. Even more ironic is how malted barley contains surprising levels of reactive oxygen species. Probably more than theoretical HSA 😱
 
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