What did I do wrong...?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

AnotherKiwiBrewer

Active Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
25
Reaction score
11
Hi all,

OK, so this has me stumped (not too difficult to do!).

I am on my 7th and 8th brews, all have been liquid malt extract kits so far.

I have followed the same basic process as the previous 6 brews with #7 and #8, but neither of these have started to ferment.

They are a Coopers Real Ale and A Draught Ale.

I put the LME and brew enhancer into the fermenter in the right quantities, same as usual. I used the kit yeast - i always rehydrate it rather than sprinkling on top. Usually within 4-12 hours i see signs of activity, bubbling in the airlock and SG readings changing, but this time, nothing. Fermentation chamber is at 20C.

I left it 48 hours, still no change in SG!

So, I used an 11g packet of US-05 and rehydrated it (again, all the same as the last 6 times) and split it 50/50 between the two brews.

It is now 20 hours later (68hours from original pitch) and no change in SG!

I am pretty confident in my process as i have done 6 successful brews this year using Cooper's kits and all the same equipment and practices, but what could I have done wrong this time, and i must have done it twice because it's affected 2 brews, repitching both!

It seems like maybe i did something that killed the kit yeast off before it could start, and then also killed the US-05 yeast. Is that possible?

I used different vessels and cutlery to rehydrate the yeast (48 hours apart), so if something has killed the yeast it must be in the ferment - AND it must be in both! Could too strong a sanitizer do this? I made up the sanitizer to the same strength as usual....

Both cans of LME were well inside the expiry date.
 
Maybe your water was too warm/hot when you rehydrated (?). If I were you, I'd buy a packet of yeast and dump it in there without rehydrating and see what happens.

I can't image the LME would be "bad", in that it wouldn't provide any fermentable sugars - so it would seem that it's an issue with the yeast. Make sure the packet of yeast isn't expired, and just dump it in.
 
Maybe your water was too warm/hot when you rehydrated (?). If I were you, I'd buy a packet of yeast and dump it in there without rehydrating and see what happens.

I can't image the LME would be "bad", in that it wouldn't provide any fermentable sugars - so it would seem that it's an issue with the yeast. Make sure the packet of yeast isn't expired, and just dump it in.

Thanks for the thoughts - I measured the water for the yeast at between 20-25 before putting the yeast in - both times. I can try another (third) pack of yeast straight in, why not? :)

This is the sort of brainstorming I need - it made me think, what if there was something in the water or other common factor that killed the yeast both times?

I agree, 2 different cans of LME (two brew are going at once) can't be bad surely. Although I would think two separate packets and brands of yeast also can't - but yeast is more delicate than LME i guess.
 
What about aeration? Does your wort have enough oxygen for the yeast to propagate? Try introducing some air into the wort if you haven't already...
 
How cold are the fermenters?

Temperature controlled at 20C.

What about aeration? Does your wort have enough oxygen for the yeast to propagate? Try introducing some air into the wort if you haven't already...

I thought about this....I aerated the wort the same as previous brews, i.e. a lot of stirring shaking and splashing, nothign special like an aeration stone or O2 tanks. When i did the second pitch of yeast i made sure to splash and stir a bit. Not ideal, but not different to what i have been fine with for 6 brews previously !

What's your rehydration process?
Any chance the yeast could have been exposed to high heat at some point?

Of course i have no idea about the yeast before i got hold of it, i.e. transport and storage before being on the shelf but i got it from the supermarket as part of the kit and used it the same day. The weird thing is that the second yeast i tried (US-05) was from the LHBS and was in a fridge there, then in my fridge for about a month before using it as the second pitch on these brews.


So guys - i really appreciate the thoughts here, keep 'em coming :) I joined this forum specifically after this problem after having been a lurker for months...

I'm not worried about the sunk money and time in these two brews (well....y'know...not overly worried!) if it helps me and other newbies discover something that helps or adds to the knowledge pool!

I am taking the advice i have read many times on these forums and having another homebrew while working this out.
 
......buy a packet of yeast and dump it in there without rehydrating and see what happens.......

So, I just did this. Another packet of US-05, well inside expiry, went in an hour or so ago straight from the packet onto the wort. One packet for each of the Real Ale and Draught fermenters.

Notes in case it helps anyone track this down - wort smells fine (i don't know what an infected wort would smell like but i imagine not great???) and i sprayed with a mister spray some starsan solution on the outside of the fermetner and my hands and the outside of the yeast packet and so on before pitching.

Getting late here, but let's see what I can see before bedtime!
 
What's your rehydration process?

Sorry, missed this a couple of posts back. Without describing it in detail, a seemingly pretty standard "boil water, cool to around 25c, dump yeast, leave 10-15 mins(covered), stir, cover again, leave another 10-15 mins, get temp to within a few deg of wort and pitch"

Any krausen on top?
No...no signs of activity. It's like the yeast is/was dead and the yeast is the common factor to both batches so it has to be something to do with yeast. BUT how on earth do two different dry yeasts pitched 48 hours apart both get killed? I'm starting to wonder if i mixed the starsan wrong, if it was too strong could it kill the yeast? I guess the job of sanitizer is to kill stuff...but how wrong would I have to get the dilution? surely to get it strong enough to kill the yeast it would have burned my skin or something?

Are you using a refractometer or hydrometer for gravity?

Hydrometer - manual type and I have a Tilt electronic one in the fermenter, neither show any change.

I don't see mention of the OG of either batch - what are they?

Real Ale = 1.053 and Draught = 1.052
 
Sorry, missed this a couple of posts back. Without describing it in detail, a seemingly pretty standard "boil water, cool to around 25c, dump yeast, leave 10-15 mins(covered), stir, cover again, leave another 10-15 mins, get temp to within a few deg of wort and pitch"

Seems pretty standard. Only question might be what kind of water--it should be normal water, not distilled or RO water.
 
Seems pretty standard. Only question might be what kind of water--it should be normal water, not distilled or RO water.

Yup - standard tap water, same as previous 6 batches. Not aware of any obvious changes (Chlorination of the supply has been introduced in some parts of my district but 100% no change for my area yet)

I'm looking at your fermentation temperature. Are you positive that your thermometer is calibrated? Granted we are in the depths of summer, and that much yeast should be doing SOMETHING by now. Unless your water was soft as a goosedown pillow you should have some action by now. I would look toward your equipment or thermometer as the issue.

I thought of this while this post was in draft (can only post 5x per 24hours) and you are quite correct, the thermometer is another common factor. More below. P.S. I'm in winter here in the southern hemisphere, but regardless i built a ferm chamber and it's at a nice steady 20degC. The chamber has proven itself over the last 6 batches.


Maybe your water was too warm/hot when you rehydrated (?). If I were you, I'd buy a packet of yeast and dump it in there without rehydrating and see what happens.

Some success!


I did this last night, and now today i have bubbling in the airlocks, krausen on top and SG is falling on both batches!


So. Somehow, I managed to have TWO dead batches of yeast, 48 hours apart, different brands, different expiry dates, one batch fromt he kit and one from the LHBS.

I can't believe they were both DOA, so for the two rehydrated batches to fail and the dry sprinkled on top to work, what the heck could have happened?
My thoughts, going on what was common between both rehydrated pitches:

- Will check my thermometer is accurate, it's a digital one, maybe it's gone wrong and the water was too hot?
- Used different vessels and cutlery to rehydrate, but the same starsan solution to sanitize. No sanitizer needed for the dry pitch so did i make it too strong maybe? Might rehydrate yet another pack split between a vessel sanitized with the same solution and one unsanitized (not going to brew with this yeast, just an experiment) and throw some sugar in and see if one or both batches produce activity.


Also, is there likely to be any detrimental effect from the wort being idle for around 72 hours without fermenting, it was in a sealed fermenter the whole time apart form opening to re-pitch and then to try the dry sprinkled pitch. I know there's no way to say for sure, but if it is very likely to be OK or very likely NOT to be would determine if I leave it or just start over.

Cheers
 
Good to hear it kicked off finally. Yeah - maybe it's just your thermometer and the water was too hot. I find that dry yeast is always reliable - though I've actually never rehydrated before pitching it.

Your beer should be fine, though I would expect at least some sort of minor off flavors from it sitting 72 hours with no fermentation.
 
I like this thread--a perfect example of HBT working at maximum power. Different people advancing different possible scenarios as to why things are progressing (or not) as they are. No judgment, just trying to figure things out.

Makes me have hope for the human race. And beer.
 
OMFG I have been waiting for the 5 posts in 24 hour thing to expire so i can post this!!!

You guys rock. Seriously, if mongoose33 hadn't said it already I would have said something similar.

I have no words - just see attached photo. I killed billions of poor yeasties - TWICE!

(i can't seem to upload a JPG or PNG image, forum says "problem uploading your file" so linking it below for now:

https://ibb.co/kUSHLp

Image shows my thermometer, in ice water, reading 16.1degC !!!! It appears to have a constant 16.1degC offset, meaning I pitched my yeast at about 25+16 = 41C !!!
 
Last edited:
Bloody hell. Thats not even close.
thermometer.jpg
 
Glad its going again. I'm from NZ as well and once you get your head around that gallons and ounces silliness, you'll find this site to be probably the best source of brewing knowledge available.
Sucks about your thermometer, but at least you found the problem before your next batch. Go check out the broken carboy horror story thread if you want to feel better about losing 2 packs of yeast :)
 
Glad it's sorted. JFTR the current advice from Fermentis is NOT to rehydrate - and the effect of not rehydration on dry yeast from other companies is less than it was as manufacturing processes have improved.

Dry yeast have far less need for aeration - you need oxygen to make sterols which are needed for new cell membranes and hence for cell division, but dry yeast are made in a way so that they're loaded up on enough sterols for three cell divisions, which is close to what yeast do in the typical beer.

41C is close to killing point for ale yeast but you probably didn't quite kill all of them, it depends a bit on the strain. Yeast typically grow best at 30C or so, we only brew at lower temps to avoid off-flavours.

Yes - calibrate!!! Goes for hydrometers too which are notorious for having offsets.
 
Glad it's sorted. JFTR the current advice from Fermentis is NOT to rehydrate - and the effect of not rehydration on dry yeast from other companies is less than it was as manufacturing processes have improved.

Do you have a source for this current advice from Fermentis? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn. In their spec sheet for US-05, for instance, they give rehydration instructions, and no indication that one should not rehydrate:

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-US-05.pdf
 
Do you have a source for this current advice from Fermentis? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn. In their spec sheet for US-05, for instance, they give rehydration instructions, and no indication that one should not rehydrate:

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-US-05.pdf

There's a recent episode of Brulosophy podcast where they go into this in depth. Their experimental data suggests rehydrating doesn't have a negative effect, nor does making a starter from dry yeast, but it ALSO shows that simply sprinkling the yeast on top of the wort produces indistinguishable beer (in most cases) from rehydrated and starter.

TL;DR: Just sprinkle the yeast unless you have an absurdly high OG or a very low pH.
 
There's a recent episode of Brulosophy podcast where they go into this in depth. Their experimental data suggests rehydrating doesn't have a negative effect, nor does making a starter from dry yeast, but it ALSO shows that simply sprinkling the yeast on top of the wort produces indistinguishable beer (in most cases) from rehydrated and starter.

TL;DR: Just sprinkle the yeast unless you have an absurdly high OG or a very low pH.

I'm always a little skittish using Brulosophy information because their tasting panels are not done properly. Hard to tell if a "no difference" result is truly because the beers are indistinguishable or if the lack of control in the tasting process compromises the result.

I recently took an off-flavor workshop where they presented us with a well-controlled triangle test: the order in which the beers were presented to us was random, and we hadn't been drinking who-knows-what prior to that.

While I've long thought that the care with which Brulosophy experiments take in trying to produce beers that differ only by the experimental variable is excellent, the tasting portion is not well-controlled. There's no control for what people were eating or drinking prior; if someone was drinking a very hoppy and bitter IPA, it's quite possible they've destroyed their palate and couldn't tell the difference if there was one. The ordering issue is a problem, and we don't know to whom the results generalize, though that's the least of the concerns.

So, take the results with a grain of salt. Bully for the guys from Brulosophy who are trying to add science and information to the process, but we also need to recognize the limitations.

***********

BTW, one argument for getting the yeast going is to get it to take off as fast as possible, so it can as quickly as possible outcompete whatever biological nasties have fallen into the wort after chilling.

The quicker the yeast takes off, the better.
 
Do you have a source for this current advice from Fermentis? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn. In their spec sheet for US-05, for instance, they give rehydration instructions, and no indication that one should not rehydrate:

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/SafAle-US-05.pdf

It's there in that instruction sheet, albeit rather disguised - they give direct sprinkling as an equally valid method with no discouragement as they gave in the past. The trouble they have is that they have commercial customers who have rehydration built in to SOPs for established beers, so they can't just go saying "don't bother with rehydration" because redoing the SOP is more bother than rehydrating. They're a bit less subtle on the main page :
"Till now, in the beer world, you had to take great care of yeasts prior pitching. You had to rehydrate and acclimatise them while watching water and must temperature carefully. With E2U™ active dry yeasts, you can pitch directly or rehydrate; depending on your equipment, habits and feelings. We offer you the opportunity to make your life easier"

In other words their current advice is "Rehydrate if you want, but you're wasting your time". Which is just the SOP-friendly way of saying "don't rehydrate"....

That's true for all their E2U-branded yeast, which is just about all the beer ones.
 
I've never had issues with dry yeast taking off in a timely manner, either.

The only time I ever rehydrate is when I'm pitching into a kettle sour, but even that probably isn't necessary.
 
Back
Top