What About No-Chill? On a Chilly Night?

[GrowleyMonster]

No solid plans here, just sort of thinking out loud. I have too many variables in flux right now as it is, to make such a huge change in my brewing, I think. Maybe NEXT winter. I brew outside, under the carport, in a corner between two brick walls so usually out of the wind, for the most part, but I can always move my wort out away from the sheltering walls and radiant heat from them. We don't have much of what most of you would think of as a winter season, but it does get sort of cold. Average nightly low temps for selected months are November 53, December 50, January 44, February 48. We might get 4 to 6 nights a year when it touches freezing at night. It makes no-chill brewing seem a lot more do-able with fewer cons in what passes for winter in New Orleans.

My beers are very lightly hopped. I just don't like hoppy beers. For a 5gal batch I typically use an ounce of Cascade boiled 60 minutes and that's it, and I use a spider rather than just dumping hops in the kettle, so I can remove them easily enough right before flameout. I suppose I could also use the hop tea approach and add sterile hoppy water right into the fermenter.

Anyway I am pretty sure I would have pitching temp in the wort in about 6 hours after flame out on a reasonably cold winter night. Maybe less. That kind of makes "no-chill" brewing a lot less unattractive. I could boil late at night and then transfer to fermenter early in the morning. Lots of guys seem to be using a 12 hour or longer natural cooldown with no significant DMS or other issues, mostly just with excess hop conversion, which can be adjusted in the hopping schedule. I don't know if I am just trying to sell myself this idea or not. It is a PITA using the immersion coil chiller. I use a lot of water and can't be bothered to rig a pump and use a closed loop coolant system. The chiller prevents proper covering with the lid. I can't justify a fancy pants stainless all in one brewing system with built in heating and cooling. I don't have time to build a custom solution though I do see a lot of possibilities in hacking a small window AC unit. There's just no free lunch, and no perfect solution that checks all the boxes. But overnight outdoor ambient temperature natural cooling of the hot boiled wort seems like it could be a thing, in the winter. I just bought a Tilt and according to the website, The temperature range of the Tilt is 0°F to 185°F so I could maybe write a python app to alert me when the wort is down to say 76°F and then I could transfer to a fermenter, and pitch.

Thinking about just letting it cool in the covered kettle, and also considering the various bags and PTFE containers that guys are using. This looks intriguing:
https://www.morebeer.com/products/hot-fill-bags-pack-10.html
Your thoughs, O Wise Ones?

 

[lumpher]

A lot of the time I'll boil, let it cool to about 180, then dump it in the fermenter and let it cool overnight in the sealed fermenter, then yeast it in the morning. Been doing that for years off and on, if I'm too lazy to use my chiller. Right now I have a Smoked Chipotle Porter in the fermenter I did a no-chill on.

 

[jdauria]

Have done no chill once...brewed in the morning, left the kettle outside on a 18 degree day here in Mass, went out to my club's brew day/drinking session and came back 8 hours later and the beer was still at 120. Probably is without stirring the beer, the beer against the kettle walls acted like insulation against the warmer beer in middle. So with your warmer winter nights then New England has, it will take even longer to cool unless you can at least stir it every half hour for a few hours before going to bed. Just remember, the longer it stays above 180F, the more bitterness your 60 minute addition will add, so you may want to reduce your addition some to account for that. Now I have an extra fridge, so I can chill with my wort chiller to a certain point, then throw fermenter in fridge overnight to get farther down. Do a lot of lagers and in summer I can only chill to around 70, 75, so need to let them sit in fridge to get down to 50.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Okay so I got my HDPE 5 gallon jug and I am ready to try no-chill with my next batch I will be brewing in a few days. How do I minimize DMS formation?

Also regarding my hops addition. I use a hops spider, but I will be using pellets. By how much percentage had I ought to reduce my hops?

Any last minute warnings I might not have heard yet? I am on track to do this but it's not too late for me to back out and use the coil.

 

[SanPancho]

Okay so I got my HDPE 5 gallon jug and I am ready to try no-chill with my next batch I will be brewing in a few days. How do I minimize DMS formation?

Also regarding my hops addition. I use a hops spider, but I will be using pellets. By how much percentage had I ought to reduce my hops?

Any last minute warnings I might not have heard yet? I am on track to do this but it's not too late for me to back out and use the coil.

go to aussiehomebrewer forum and check out their stuff. they pretty much invented no chill due to crazy drought conditions. alot more info as its pretty widespread over there.

long story short- fill your vessel hot to sanitize, get out as much air as possible, and then it'll chill no problem.

as for DMS, easiest way to minimize chances is with 90 min boil. every 30 min of boil cuts DMS precursors in half if i recall correctly, so you're at 50%, then 25% at 1 hour, then 12.5% at 90min. not really enough left to cause a problem.

as for the cooling process- air is an insulator, it'll chill slowly. if you want even faster then pray for wind, rain, or rig up a swamp cooler. basically you put your vessel in something big like a keg bucket, fill with water, drape a towel or tshirt or something over the container so that its touching the water also. it'll pull water up the cloth as it evaporates and cools. probably fastest you're gonna get in NOLA.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

go to aussiehomebrewer forum and check out their stuff. they pretty much invented no chill due to crazy drought conditions. alot more info as its pretty widespread over there.

long story short- fill your vessel hot to sanitize, get out as much air as possible, and then it'll chill no problem.

as for DMS, easiest way to minimize chances is with 90 min boil. every 30 min of boil cuts DMS precursors in half if i recall correctly, so you're at 50%, then 25% at 1 hour, then 12.5% at 90min. not really enough left to cause a problem.

as for the cooling process- air is an insulator, it'll chill slowly. if you want even faster then pray for wind, rain, or rig up a swamp cooler. basically you put your vessel in something big like a keg bucket, fill with water, drape a towel or tshirt or something over the container so that its touching the water also. it'll pull water up the cloth as it evaporates and cools. probably fastest you're gonna get in NOLA.

Ah ok. Thanks for that. So I will increase my strike water a half gallon and boil for 90 minutes. I am planning to have a bit more than enough to top off jug completely. The overs I will can in a mason jar for next batch starter. So I will have zero air in the jug.

Temp I am not worried about this time of year. It gets down into the 40s on average at night in mid december. We have a Norther coming down and it will get cold I think Sunday night. Gotta check. And in summer the humidity is too high for a swamp cooler to do anything except just be wet. But even in summer I can just bring it indoors and it will be in 72 degree comfort unless we lose power. With no air at all on the wort, I am not scared to hold it 36 hours instead of 12. I pitch and ferment at room temp, no temperature regulation setup here except for the AC thermostat.

If anything, my recipes lean toward being under-hopped. So not super worried about hops. I will maybe just pull the hops spider after 45 minutes and call it good.

Really looking forward to trying this.

 

[Velnerj]

You're definitely overthinking this (which I know is part of the fun!). Your plan looks solid. RDWHAB!

 

[jtratcliff]

I've never had a DMS issue.... Even with 60 minute boils....

There used to be a no chill chart floating around here that basically called for a 20 minutes shift in hops additions..

So your 60 minute charge shifts to 40...

Here it is:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/exploring-no-chill-brewing.117111/post-1542375

 

[madscientist451]

You can also speed up "no chill" by setting the kettle in a wash tub with cold water or even add 1/2 gallon frozen water bottles or whatever ice you have to the water. But that's just another way of chilling. I usually brew at night, set the kettle out on the back porch with the lid on it and go to bed. I don't see any advantage to dumping the hot wort into a 5 gallon container, but I know some people do that. If you think you need to get the wort out of the kettle, why not use a corny keg?
I usually only do no chill when its cold out at night, like below 40F, otherwise I just use the immersion chiller.

 

[RM-MN]

There are some advantages to dumping the wort into a 5 gallon container, especially if that 5 gallon (bigger than 5 gallons) is a bucket fermenter. You need to check that the fermenter is HDPE plastic as it will take the boiling hot wort. Put the lid on and let it cool overnight. Pitch the yeast when it gets to pitching temp or below. No extra water is used for chilling.

 

[davidabcd]

The only no-chill method that looks proven safe is the one where the container is heat rated, filled and you can squeeze out the remaining air. The near boiling wort makes it a safe method.

Yes, people do it another way and they say they never have a problem. I used to eat leftover hamburgers and hotdogs that sat out overnight for breakfast during the summer when I was a kid and never got sick. Doesn't mean it was a Best Practice.

 

[soccerdad]

I've done the @lumpher thing .. let it cool a bit then go to fermenter, but I tend to let it go to 140 (f) in the kettle and then transfer. Cooling overnight on a 40 degree night is very effective IMO. Pitch the next day.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Okay so I have a solid plan, thanks to all your replies. I will:
make one quart starter as usual, but right before mashing instead of the day before
Mash normally
Boil 90 minutes instead of my usual 60 minutes to boil off DMS precursors
normal amount of hops, 40 minutes instead of 60
Cool in the kettle but not to below 180
Star-san my 5 gallon HDPE no-chill cube container
Transfer wort to cube at 180 or higher temp, fill to top and squeeze out all air
Leave outside overnight. When temp is below 80, transfer to sanitized fermenter and pitch starter
ferment normally

Less work than rigging the immersion coil. No negatives except instead of drinkable beer in 30 days I would have drinkable beer in 31 days. Since my kegs are just sitting in rotation waiting to be tapped for about 5 months anyway, I guess I can live with that. No soggy swamp next to my carport where I brew. Lower water bill. Lots of pluses. I am feeling pretty good about this.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here is an article regarding cooling times and the affect on DMS reduction in wort:

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/dmstext.htm

 

[RM-MN]

Boil 90 minutes instead of my usual 60 minutes to boil off DMS precursors
normal amount of hops, 40 minutes instead of 60
Cool in the kettle but not to below 180
Star-san my 5 gallon HDPE no-chill cube container
Transfer wort to cube at 180 or higher temp, fill to top and squeeze out all air
Leave outside overnight. When temp is below 80, transfer to sanitized fermenter and pitch starter
ferment normally

I don't often do no chill because it requires certain weather that isn't often present when I brew. When I do, my normal is a 30 minute mash, 30 minute boil, pour immediately into a HDPE bucket that I will ferment in and put the lid on. Much simpler than your plan and I haven't noticed any DMS. That lack of DMS may be due to the CO2 scrubbing and the amount of time in the fermenter as I usually leave beer in the fermenter for 3 weeks or more.

 

[soccerdad]

Here is an article regarding cooling times and the affect on DMS reduction in wort:

http://www.picobrewery.com/askarchive/dmstext.htm

Thanks for this.
But at the same time, folks who wish to no chill should look at additional sources. The fact that picobrew is no longer in business means that their article will never update. The stories of Aussie brewers who no chill won't be told there, nor will the experience of RM-MN who appears to maintain a balance with DMS despite short boils.
The bottom line seems to be that DMS is ever present, but can be kept in a positive balance.

 

[Beermeister32]

Thanks for this.
But at the same time, folks who wish to no chill should look at additional sources. The fact that picobrew is no longer in business means that their article will never update. The stories of Aussie brewers who no chill won't be told there, nor will the experience of RM-MN who appears to maintain a balance with DMS despite short boils.
The bottom line seems to be that DMS is ever present, but can be kept in a positive balance.

That’s from the picobrewery.com website, not affliliated with the old PicoBrew company. This info still up on their site.

 

[Nubiwan]

As an amusing (sort of) anecdote, my wife caught me in the middle of the boil and asked me to come watch a Christmas movie with kids, so as soon as boil was over, I turned off flame and left kettle in garage, where temp was -2 degrees. I figure that'll cool down a bit in a few hours.

I came back a few hours later and kettle temp had dropped a puny 5-10 degrees. WTF I thought. Broke out the chiller (I hate setting it up too), and cooled it all down to 70 degrees in about 15 minutes.

I am always worried about infection leaving my unsealed kettle out over night to cool, and not sure I'd disfigure my plastic pale with hot wort.

Fair to say a lot of this "worry" is created reading Home Brew forums. Some of the best held process techniques are not really that important is my experience.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I don't often do no chill because it requires certain weather that isn't often present when I brew. When I do, my normal is a 30 minute mash, 30 minute boil, pour immediately into a HDPE bucket that I will ferment in and put the lid on. Much simpler than your plan and I haven't noticed any DMS. That lack of DMS may be due to the CO2 scrubbing and the amount of time in the fermenter as I usually leave beer in the fermenter for 3 weeks or more.

I didn't know a 30 minute mash would be enough under any circumstances. Anyway, thanks for sharing your experiences. Was this with higher gravity beers? And are you filling your bucket all the way to the top, with no air space?

 

[soccerdad]

That’s from the picobrewery.com website, not affliliated with the old PicoBrew company. This info still up on their site.

Sorry. My bad.

 

[RM-MN]

I didn't know a 30 minute mash would be enough under any circumstances. Anyway, thanks for sharing your experiences. Was this with higher gravity beers? And are you filling your bucket all the way to the top, with no air space?

To know how long a mash period needs to be will require you to do some experimenting. Start by purchasing some iodine from the phamacy. At the start of the mash and then every minute take a sample from the mash that has grain particles. Put a drop of iodine right on the grain. If it turns blue, there is still starch present. When you no longer get the blue color, conversion is complete. If you find that conversion completes way faster than you expect, that's what I found. Don't stop the mash too soon, it takes longer to extract flavor than it does to convert. The length of the mash period is directly controlled by the milling of the grain. My Corona mill is set as finely as I can make it so the grain particles are very small.

I might do a 2 1/2 gallon batch and pour the boiling wort into a 6 1/2 gallon fermenter bucket. The steam will pasteurize the lid of the bucket and the sides above the wort. Make sure to start with a freshly cleaned bucket. You need space above the wort if you are fermenting in the bucket as you need space for the krausen.

 

[Nubiwan]

To know how long a mash period needs to be will require you to do some experimenting. Start by purchasing some iodine from the phamacy. At the start of the mash and then every minute take a sample from the mash that has grain particles. Put a drop of iodine right on the grain. If it turns blue, there is still starch present. When you no longer get the blue color, conversion is complete. If you find that conversion completes way faster than you expect, that's what I found. Don't stop the mash too soon, it takes longer to extract flavor than it does to convert. The length of the mash period is directly controlled by the milling of the grain. My Corona mill is set as finely as I can make it so the grain particles are very small.

I might do a 2 1/2 gallon batch and pour the boiling wort into a 6 1/2 gallon fermenter bucket. The steam will pasteurize the lid of the bucket and the sides above the wort. Make sure to start with a freshly cleaned bucket. You need space above the wort if you are fermenting in the bucket as you need space for the krausen.

Feel like I should know this, but do you bottle @RM-MN ? Only ask because you mentioned plastic buckets.

 

[RM-MN]

Feel like I should know this, but do you bottle @RM-MN ? Only ask because you mentioned plastic buckets.

Yes to bottling. I do 2 1/2 (OK, I stretch the capacity of my 5 gallon boil pot as far as I can and get more than that) gallon batches and bottling works good for that size batch. By doing the small batches I save my bad back some grief and by doing more of them to get the volume I can have several varieties of beer ready to drink. Yesterday I drank an amber, today a stout, and tomorrow I'll have a nice aromatic pale ale. By mid January I expect to have 6 or more varieties in bottles or ready to bottle and by the time I need to start farm work in the spring I expect to have about 15 varieties which will carry my drinking over the summer months and in the late fall I'll start over.

 

[Nubiwan]

Yes to bottling. I do 2 1/2 (OK, I stretch the capacity of my 5 gallon boil pot as far as I can and get more than that) gallon batches and bottling works good for that size batch. By doing the small batches I save my bad back some grief and by doing more of them to get the volume I can have several varieties of beer ready to drink. Yesterday I drank an amber, today a stout, and tomorrow I'll have a nice aromatic pale ale. By mid January I expect to have 6 or more varieties in bottles or ready to bottle and by the time I need to start farm work in the spring I expect to have about 15 varieties which will carry my drinking over the summer months and in the late fall I'll start over.

Do you find small batches any quicker brew days?

If I am breaking out the kettle for 3-5 hours, then I just try to maximize my output for that day.

 

[RM-MN]

Do you find small batches any quicker brew days?

If I am breaking out the kettle for 3-5 hours, then I just try to maximize my output for that day.

The smaller batches reduce my time at the chiropractor. Otherwise they take about the same time as a bigger batch.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

To know how long a mash period needs to be will require you to do some experimenting. Start by purchasing some iodine from the phamacy. At the start of the mash and then every minute take a sample from the mash that has grain particles. Put a drop of iodine right on the grain. If it turns blue, there is still starch present. When you no longer get the blue color, conversion is complete. If you find that conversion completes way faster than you expect, that's what I found. Don't stop the mash too soon, it takes longer to extract flavor than it does to convert. The length of the mash period is directly controlled by the milling of the grain. My Corona mill is set as finely as I can make it so the grain particles are very small.

I might do a 2 1/2 gallon batch and pour the boiling wort into a 6 1/2 gallon fermenter bucket. The steam will pasteurize the lid of the bucket and the sides above the wort. Make sure to start with a freshly cleaned bucket. You need space above the wort if you are fermenting in the bucket as you need space for the krausen.

Ok. Yeah I use a Corona, too. Cheap, and it just works. Mine is almost metal on metal.

Okay then. I think I will stick with 60min for now with normal BIAB brewing with wort chilling, and I am still leaning toward 90 for no-chill. But I might experiment with shorter mashes in the future.

 

[RM-MN]

Ok. Yeah I use a Corona, too. Cheap, and it just works. Mine is almost metal on metal.

Tighten it up.

 

[rancocas]

go to aussiehomebrewer forum and check out their stuff. they pretty much invented no chill due to crazy drought conditions. alot more info as its pretty widespread over there.

long story short- fill your vessel hot to sanitize, get out as much air as possible, and then it'll chill no problem.

as for DMS, easiest way to minimize chances is with 90 min boil. every 30 min of boil cuts DMS precursors in half if i recall correctly, so you're at 50%, then 25% at 1 hour, then 12.5% at 90min. not really enough left to cause a problem.

as for the cooling process- air is an insulator, it'll chill slowly. if you want even faster then pray for wind, rain, or rig up a swamp cooler. basically you put your vessel in something big like a keg bucket, fill with water, drape a towel or tshirt or something over the container so that its touching the water also. it'll pull water up the cloth as it evaporates and cools. probably fastest you're gonna get in NOLA.

I just put a small fan on on my sealed fermentor overnight. Pitch in the morning.