Weizens too "acidic"-lemon taste, tasting like cheap beer

[Konstantinos]

Hello fellow homebrewers!
I recently switched from kits to allgrain but I keep having the same problem.
When brewing weizens, either kits or allgrain they keep coming up too "acidic"-lemon like, tasting like cheap alcohol with a lot of carbonation without any typical banana-clover taste.
The off taste seems to come after fermentation.
All other brews (pilsners, IPAs, APAs etc) taste pretty good.

Sanitation is ok, fermenting temp. is about 18-20C (66F).

Could it be that I pitch a little warm at 25C (77F)?
Or that I use table water (pH 7.9, 9.2mg Cl-/l)?
Any other thoughts?

I attach my last Dunkelweizen attempt with the same results.
Many thanks!!

Batch Size 23 L
Losses 2 L
Boil Time 60 mins
Mash Efficiency 75%
Mash Volume 16.46 L
OG 1.045 FG
1.012 IBU
Fermentables
Wheat 2.10 kg (44%)
Munich 2.10 kg (44%)
Special B 0.30 kg (6%)
Caramunich I 0.30 kg (6%)

Mash In 66 °C 90 min
Mash Out 72 °C 10 min
Hops
Tettnang (IBU: 16.2) 40.00 g (100%) Pellet Boil 60 min

Mangrove Jacks M20 Bavarian Wheat 1 packets 70 %

 

[tmurph6]

Try a different yeast. Sounds like the common variable is yeast selection.

 

[micraftbeer]

Recipe looks fine. When it comes to nuance like you're describing, usually it has to do with yeast/fermentation or water.

I don't use dry yeast, and Mangrove Jack's website doesn't offer much advice on temperature, other than a big range. Looking at hefeweizen yeast from my typical yeast sources (Wyeast, White Labs), they both indicate a recommendation to under-pitch. I'm not a hefewizen fan, so have only brewed these maybe once. So I can't speak to the underpitch recommendation, but maybe try less than a full pouch of yeast. The other thing is they note is the fermentation temperature can either steer you towards the phenolics (lower in ferment temperature range) or banana esters (higher in fermentation temperature range). So it sounds like you probably want get toward their upper end and ferment in the 25-30C range.

As for water, I don't have any specific advice there, but I do know from personal experience, and my personal taste buds that wheat malt has specific flavor interactions for me based on brewing salts. When I brewed wheat beers and matched my "malt forward" water profile, I would always get notable apple flavors/aromas. It drove me crazy, but neighbors said they didn't notice it. When I used my "hop forward" water profile, the same apple characteristic went away. This was on wheat beers with 50% of grain bill, as well as other beers where I was only using maybe 8-10% wheat. So I'd recommend you do some research on hefeweizen brewing water profiles and figure out how to match something that someone has tried and had good results.

 

[Abhishek Dewan]

I may be wrong but it seems the beer hasn't been given enough time to mature. How many days/weeks did you let it ferment?

 

[Dland]

That's a good point. I might suggest conditioning cold for a couple of weeks before you pass final judgment on your brew.

 

[Konstantinos]

It's been 3 weeks in the bottle. Till now as I leave it in bottle the lemon flavor intensifies..
It surely is better than the urine smell (according to wife) it had at the beginning!
I'll check another yeast, it's true that all my attempts have been using dry mangrove yeast.

 

[Jag75]

Dont know that what the preferred yeast temp is for that yeast but pitching at 77f it's going to hit 80's as fermentation kicks in. Unless you have something that got it down to the mid 60s quick like .

Of course this style does have a slight tartness to it . That coupled with high carbonation may be attributing. I would try a different yeast and see if it changes for you .

 

[mabrungard]

I’m not sure you’ll get much clove without conducting a Ferrulic rest. The yeast can only do so much without the proper substrate. I’m not sure about Jangrove Mack yeasts , so I don’t know if it’s a good phenolic producer. The Wyeast 3068 is when you ferment in the low to mid 60’s.

 

[FullThrottle64]

I have used Wyeast Weihenstephan 3068 several times with dunkelweizen, and always have gotten that nice, distinctive clove/banana ester. Pitching a bit warm has never hurt it (yet)

A batch is in my carboy right now, in fact. I know that I pitched it WAY warm, so in about another week I'll be able to say what it does to this particular strain.

 

[Konstantinos]

thanks for the replies!
the batch went to the sink, it was undrinkable..
tried a new one with a different dry yeast, finding liquid yeast here in Greece is really problematic.
let's see if it fixes the problem

 

[Dr_Jeff]

It sounds more like it might have gotten infected to me.

 

[Jayjay1976]

...finding liquid yeast here in Greece is really problematic.

Another way to go, you could add a bit of oregano at bottling to accompany the lemon....Greek style weizen!

 

[Konstantinos]

Another way to go, you could add a bit of oregano at bottling to accompany the lemon....Greek style weizen!

 

[Gruel]

Here is my most recent experience with brewing wheat beer; if it's not useful, then maybe at least it can serve as a warning... ;-)

Infection:
My previous (last-but-one) Weizen got infected because I bought liquid yeast that was past expiration and apparently dead (I wanted a Weizen yeast, and that was all they had - also saved three bucks...). After a day it looked like fermentation had started, but then it stopped again, and when I checked the density (specific gravity) after five days it was virtually identical to the starting gravity (within the error of the temperature correction). I then repitched with working wheat beer yeast, and it ran through what looked like the normal fermentation. So, not much sugar at all got converted by what I assume was lactobacillus, but it definitely influenced the flavor in a major way.

Mashing profile & fermentation temperature:
For my most recent (successful) Weizen I tried to go the opposite direction, i.e. less of the (unavoidable, in my experience) banana flavor. I included a ferulic acid rest at 115F/44C to steer more to the clove side, and fermented at the lower end of the range (16 C) for the yeast I used (Wyeast Weihenstephan Wheat).
I used 5 lbs (US pound, which comes at a 10% discount to the metric pound of 1/2 kg...) of Weyermann Pale Wheat, and 5 lbs of Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner malt. The water is Chicago city water from Lake Michigan, run through a carbon filter.
My mash profile (step mash on gas range):
mash in at 102F/38C with 10 lbs grain and 15 quarts water (was aiming for mash in and acid rest at 95F/35C, but used too much water)
heat on after 35 minutes
115F/44C reached at 45 minutes: ferulic acid rest (supposedly helps for more clove and less banana aroma)
heat on again after 1 hour
125F/50C reached after 67 minutes : protein rest
heat on after 78 minutes
140F/60C after 105 minutes (low end of maltose rest/ beta-amylase range)
145F/62C after 130 minutes
162F/72C after 155 minutes : alpha- amylase range : I might have been a bit too careful with applying heat, but I wanted to avoid scorching the mash; now, you could also argue that a bit of scorching just helps to emulate a decoction mash...
165F/74C after 190 minutes, and I declared mashing done, and started sparging with ~70C water

Hops: 1 oz german Perle; once could probably use less, but I like hops.

OG was 1.070, so I thinned the wort with filtered water to 1.050. Pitched at 26C from an active starter (tiny bubbles, yeast smell), fermentation at 16C. Final gravity was/is 1.011.

The beer was pretty much done fermenting after six days. I transferred to a keg after ten days.
The beer tastes delicious. There is a bit of acidity, but I don't think I ever had a Weizen without any.

Summary/TL;DR: Make sure your yeast is healthy/active; maybe use a starter. Too little banana flavor seems an unusual problem for me.

 

[Gruel]

Hi Konstantinos, a quick update:
a) I misstated both my grain bill and the hops; I used 1 ounce Hallertau Mittelfrueh, not Perle, and 7 lbs Weizen and 3 lbs Pils malt, not 5 and 5.

b) This paper here https://www.blq-weihenstephan.de/fi...ile_ausgewaehlter_Weizenbier-_Hefestaemme.pdf
states that too much aeration of the wort can reduce ester (=banana) flavors. Could that be a factor for you?
[p.268, bottom of left column:" Es ist beispielsweise hinlänglich bekannt, dass eine starke Belüftung der Hefe während der Propagation oder beim Anstellen bei der Weizenbier-Produktion zu einer verminderten Esterbildung führt. Grund hierfür ist der negative Einfluss des Sauerstoffs, der die Enzymaktivität der Alkohol-AcetylTransferasen hemmt [5, 9]. " Translation: It is for example well known that a strong aeration of the yeast during the propagation or the setup ('anstellen' : usually the initial mixing of something with something, to setup a process) in wheat beer production leads to a reduced ester formation. Reason for this is the negative influence of the oxygen, which hinders (reduces, hobbles, hems) the enzyme activity of the alcohol-acetyl transferases.

And then, at the bottom of the middle column, they state this: " Aufgrund der Vielzahl an Einflussfaktoren verhält sich ein Hefestamm von Brauerei zu Brauerei z.T. sehr unterschiedlich. Deshalb ist es auch nur schwer möglich, eine Aussage über das zu erwartende Aromaprofil eines Hefestammes zu tätigen. " Translation: Because of the multitude of influence factors a yeast strain behaves partially ('z.T.', zum Teil: sometimes or occasionally might be a better translation) very differently from brewery to brewery. Therefore it is only possible with great difficulty to make a statement about the aroma profile that should be expected of a yeast strain.
Well, that helps a lot. So it might just be your brewery. Can you brew at a neighbours place? ;-)

Also, it seems Weihenstephan, which is part of Technical University Munich, has a bunch of publications for free download on their website, at Forschungszentrum Weihenstephan für Brau- und Lebensmittelqualität: Downloadcenter .
The download center of the english version of the website has fewer publications: Forschungszentrum Weihenstephan für Brau- und Lebensmittelqualität: Downloads
Which leads me to believe that the secret Bavarian version of the web site has even more info; unfortunately it will be in Bavarian...