Weihenstephaner Original - Recipe?

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korndog

korndog

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Does anyone know a good recipe for this beer? A good bready Helles; I think WY2124 is the yeast from this brewery.

Thanks
KD
 
I know that Wyeast 2124 and White Labs 830 are both from that brewery and are the same strand (Weihenstephan 34/70). This site will give you which strains of yeast come from where and which are analogous to each other. Good luck with the rest of the recipe.

KotMF: Yeast Comparison
 
Parker36 said:
I know that Wyeast 2124 and White Labs 830 are both from that brewery and are the same strand (Weihenstephan 34/70). This site will give you which strains of yeast come from where and which are analogous to each other. Good luck with the rest of the recipe.

KotMF: Yeast Comparison
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link. If I don't get anywhere on the recipe, i will just try to find a basic Helles recipe and use that yeast.
 
+1 on the WLP830. See my dropdown, that beer kicked @$$, floated the keg in record time. For improved malt character you could do a double decoction mash and/or use more Munich malt which will give a bready character. I would stay away from any specialty malts in this brew.
 
Saccharomyces said:
For improved malt character you could do a double decoction mash and/or use more Munich malt which will give a bready character. I would stay away from any specialty malts in this brew.
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If you do a decoction, I recommend watching Kaiser's decoction videos and be careful about that protein rest temp. You're probably better off starting in the mid 130s (then up to mid/upper 150s, then mash-out) with today's malts as opposed to the traditional 122 protein rest.

As for malts, you really only need Pilsner malt (German is best). You can add a little Cara-pils if you want or a little Munich malt... but don't add too much... you'd be surprised how a little light Munich malt can darken a Helles. One of the trademarks of a Helles is how light/bright it is (helles actually means "bright" in German). I know the BJCP style guides say SRM is 3-5, but many German versions are under 3.
 
menschmaschine said:
If you do a decoction, I recommend watching Kaiser's decoction videos and be careful about that protein rest temp. You're probably better off starting in the mid 130s (then up to mid/upper 150s, then mash-out) with today's malts as opposed to the traditional 122 protein rest.
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Yes this works wonders, I have done several step mashes with a 131*F rest (from Noonan's New Lager Brewing) followed by stepping up to the low 150s or high 140's depending on the gravity. Since I mash in a cooler I can do a direct step from protein to sacc rest and don't even need to decoct whereas a 122*F rest I use for wheat beers requires a decoction.

Whenever I have done this my yields are insane, I got 86% efficiency on a 1.090 tripel with this method... ;) And the beer is so clear you could read a book through it. I do think it is well worth the trouble.
 
Also, the hops... You may already know... in a Helles, flavor hops really aren't necessary and can easily overwhelm the malt profile. However, I think a smidgen (maybe 1/4 oz per 5 gallon batch) of aroma hops at like 1 or 2 minutes is nice in a Helles. I've done Helles with only bittering hops and with a touch of aroma hops and I've noticed a real difference... it's nice to catch that faint wiff of hops aroma in the head when you put the glass up to your mouth.
 
menschmaschine said:
Also, the hops... You may already know... in a Helles, flavor hops really aren't necessary and can easily overwhelm the malt profile. However, I think a smidgen (maybe 1/4 oz per 5 gallon batch) of aroma hops at like 1 or 2 minutes is nice in a Helles. I've done Helles with only bittering hops and with a touch of aroma hops and I've noticed a real difference... it's nice to catch that faint wiff of hops aroma in the head when you put the glass up to your mouth.
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Nice tip. I definitely get a faint hint of hops tickling the nose with the Weihenstephaner. This beer is excellent btw, if you haven't had it. It has really sparked my interest in Light German Lagers.
 
Here's a recipe from Jamil's book. This looks pretty straight. Wyermann's has a 5-6L Munich which sounds better to me for this beer. Any thoughts?

10# Pilsner (I'll use Weyermann's)
0.75 # Munich Malt 9L
4 AAU Hallertau - 60 minutes (Add a touch of hops at knock out.)

Single decoction to mash-out
 
That looks good with a few comments:

I've done quite a few different malt combinations for Helles and after experimenting and reading Horst Dornbusch's book on Helles, I've really turned around and come down to the basics. I use only Pilsner malt with a little bit of Cara-pils (3-5%). If you do a decoction (more on that below), you'll get plenty of maltiness from the Pilsner malt alone. The maltiness in a Helles is "delicate" rather than "in-your-face" like a Marzen and Munich malt can take it over that line. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, but just some things to consider. Also, the decoction will darken your beer a little bit more than what the software predicts.

As for the decoction, if you're going to do a single decoction, doing it for mash-out won't really get you the maltiness you're looking to get from it. Mash-out decoctions need to be "thin" and the maillard reactions are much less than in a thick decoction. As long as pH isn't an issue (acid rest), I would mash-in in the low to mid 130's and decoct up to the mid to upper 150s. Then you can either decoct again (thin) to mash-out or water infusion or direct-fire to reach mash-out temp.

Also, keep your water-to-grain ratio higher than you do normally. 2 qts per pound is a good mid-range number.
 
Thanks again for the information. Ok, I will pull two decoctions. I recently did a triple for a Bohemian Pilsner and that was a LONG day. I'm tempted to skip the Munich now and let the decoction and yeast provide the character. My recipes are getting increasingly simpler on the grain bills too.

Great posts guys. Thanks again.
 
menschmaschine said:
As for the decoction, if you're going to do a single decoction, doing it for mash-out won't really get you the maltiness you're looking to get from it. Mash-out decoctions need to be "thin" and the maillard reactions are much less than in a thick decoction. As long as pH isn't an issue (acid rest), I would mash-in in the low to mid 130's and decoct up to the mid to upper 150s. Then you can either decoct again (thin) to mash-out or water infusion or direct-fire to reach mash-out temp.
.
Click to expand...

Say, I was thinking about this. I uderstand that normally the later decoctions are pulled thinner, but what is the downside of pulling a thick decoction for mash-out if I am only doing one?

Thanks
KD
 
I need to research this a bit and maybe Kaiser can step in, but I'm pretty sure that the spent grain (at that point) no longer supports maillard reactions (lack of amino acids or something) and there is a greater risk of tannin extraction. I've seen it recommended against because it will produce "unfavorable flavors", but I'm not sure chemically what is going on and what is not.
 
menschmaschine said:
I need to research this a bit and maybe Kaiser can step in, but I'm pretty sure that the spent grain (at that point) no longer supports maillard reactions (lack of amino acids or something) and there is a greater risk of tannin extraction. I've seen it recommended against because it will produce "unfavorable flavors", but I'm not sure chemically what is going on and what is not.
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Intersting. Since I am converting in the decoction kettle anyway, I wouldn't think there would be a difference.
 
I just tapped this beer the other day and it is really good. Really well balanced with no major flaws. I used the following recipe with no-sparge with 130F protein rest. Thanks for all the help. I'll enter this beer in a comp. or two to get some feedback.

Helles

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report


Formulas Used
-------------


% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
95.2 14.47 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
2.4 0.36 lbs. Caramel Pils Malt Belgium 1.034 2
2.4 0.36 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.00 oz. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 2.20 18.9 60 min.
0.25 oz. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 4.75 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 2124 Bohemian Lager


Water Profile
-------------

Profile: Munich
Profile known for:

Calcium(Ca): 76.0 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 18.0 ppm
Sodium(Na): 1.0 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 10.0 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 2.0 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 152.0 ppm

pH: 8.33
 
Just scored a 2nd in Quaff's America's Finest City comp. with this beer. Have not seen the scoresheets yet. Thanks for all the tips guys.
 
Great job! You know, looking at the recipe again, that looks earily similar to some I've brewed. Not only in the grain bill (+ or - the Munich malt), but the hops (pretty much exactly type, quantities, and schedule), and the yeast (I used WLP830 which is supposed to be the same as Wyeast 2124). So, I think I have a pretty good idea of how your beer tastes!:mug:
 
menschmaschine said:
Great job! You know, looking at the recipe again, that looks earily similar to some I've brewed. Not only in the grain bill (+ or - the Munich malt), but the hops (pretty much exactly type, quantities, and schedule), and the yeast (I used WLP830 which is supposed to be the same as Wyeast 2124). So, I think I have a pretty good idea of how your beer tastes!:mug:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I got the aroma hops idea from YOU in an earlier post!
 
menschmaschine said:
What was your OG/FG? How long did you lager?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I missed this before. I was actually a touch high at 1.058/1.012 and lagered for 8 weeks.

I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have a rare BJCP Master judge this category. Here are the results for a 2nd in category. I actually like the hop balance but will try to brew closer to style next time.

Aroma - 8/11
Light bready malt and below light earthy hops, clean, no esters or other aromatics.

Appearance - 3/3
Clear light gold, very fine bubbled white head with retention greater than 1 minute. Great look!

Flavor - 12/20
Light bready malt and earthy hops, no esters. Balance slightly bitter, too much for this styles malt expectations. lingering bitter finish, clean well brewed, just slightly too bitter for style.

Mouthfeel - 4/5
Medium body and carbonation, no warmth, slight creaminess, nice touch! No astringency or other palate sensations.

Overall Impression - 6/10
Nice beer to drink, I could do mass quantities, but too bitter for style. Don't change your process, but do tweak the recipe by lowering bittering hop IBU by at least 25% to get closer to Helles style. Thanks!
 
Hey, that looks like a winner to me! You got great attenuation too. If your IBUs were calculated to 18.9, that should have been fine for the style. Plus with the higher gravity, the bitterness ratio would have been lower. Maybe you fermented it so clean, the judge was perplexed by the bitterness.;)
 
menschmaschine said:
Hey, that looks like a winner to me! You got great attenuation too. If your IBUs were calculated to 18.9, that should have been fine for the style. Plus with the higher gravity, the bitterness ratio would have been lower. Maybe you fermented it so clean, the judge was perplexed by the bitterness.;)
Click to expand...

To tell you the truth, I think this beer is damn fine and hopped perfectly. I'll back off the hops a touch, but not 25%! Competitions are funny: I scored a 45-46 (highest in contest) with a variation of Dude's Lakewalk in this same contest and only scored a 3rd behind some 31-32 point beers in a mini BOS.
I'm going to pick up a sack of Weyermann Pilsner today and brew this up again soon. I have a feeling this is going to be our summer beer this year.
 
Going to brew this with FWH this weekend instead of 60 minute. Any experiences?
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You might get too much hop flavor for the style. Are you trying to hit the style numbers? If not def try it. I like menschmachine's approach...just bittering hops with a touch of aroma...just enough to be noticable after a fresh pour and the head kicks up the aroma. But I still might FWH a tiny bit.:)

Oh yea...I wouldn't do the FWH instead of the 60 min...you'll def get too much flavor that way imo. I might move a small quantity from the 60 to FWH but that's the max I'd do. Depends on what you're after I guess.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
You might get too much hop flavor for the style. Are you trying to hit the style numbers? If not def try it. I like menschmachine's approach...just bittering hops with a touch of aroma...just enough to be noticable after a fresh pour and the head kicks up the aroma. But I still might FWH a tiny bit.:)

Oh yea...I wouldn't do the FWH instead of the 60 min...you'll def get too much flavor that way imo. I might move a small quantity from the 60 to FWH but that's the max I'd do. Depends on what you're after I guess.
Click to expand...

I was looking for a slightly smoother bitterness and a touch more flavor. This was corresponding with some scoresheets I got on this beer. Trying to brew to style, for sure. I might give a try to some or all FWH this batch, adjusting IBU to 20 minute utilization for hte FWH.
 
korndog said:
Flavor - 12/20
Light bready malt and earthy hops, no esters. Balance slightly bitter, too much for this styles malt expectations. lingering bitter finish, clean well brewed, just slightly too bitter for style.
Click to expand...

Somewhat surprising, in that looking at Weihenstephaner's website, original has around 25 "bittering power". Assuming that is equivalent to BU's, this is still significantly greater that the 19BUs theoretically produced by your recipe.

FWIW, i would enjoy/target around 15-20BUs as you did for a Helles, also.

I do like the process of FWH, but it's been way too unpredictable in my uses. I can't figure out the equivalent boils, how things taste/smell, etc. in relation to "normal" hopping. The only thing i DO know is that FWH does produce a much smoother bitterness. I think some trial & error is called for when i brew this one up soon.

Let us know any FWH work that's done & the results.
 
resurrecting a dead thread here but I am very interested in FWH a helles. I have done it quite a few times with IPA's but never with a delicate style like this. In theory, a smoother bitterness should work better with this style of beer. Has anybody actually done it?
 

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