Water Weirdness, and I doing it wrong? (TDS Related)

[thefost]

I'm having issues with my hoppier beers tasting bland and samey for a while now. I'm not getting any fruity, citrus, or pine notes really at all. In trying to figure out the problem I'm first going back to my water and could really use some help here.

I'm using RO water from my tap in so cal. The tap water measures 650 TDS and my RO water measures 49 TDS. Not great but should be good enough I think.

On my last batch I tried to clone Hop Stoopid for the second time since lagunitas provides the actual recipe. Using the EZ water spreadsheet I added

Salt Mash Addition Sparge Addition
Gypsum 8g 5g
CaCl2 1g .6g
Epsom 2g 1.2g


Which should get me around:
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate
124ppm 11ppm 8ppm 31ppm 309ppm



Which seems reasonable as far as I can tell. Also, I adjusted mash pH to 5.3 using phosphoric acid (verified).


EDIT
My original question was wrong, so I'm editing this. I used my TDS meter and tested my IPA and got 1400. Then I tested some commercial pales and IPAs and got 750-950.

Looking at my additives, I shouldn't be getting numbers anywhere near as high as 1400, right? Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[Hermit]

Have you checked out the Heady Topper Video thread? I'm not an IPA kinda guy but the numbers they are throwing out in that thread are kinda over the top. Maybe IPAs are better off with more 'stuff' in the water.

 

[thefost]

OK i'm a moron, theres a x10 on my tds meter that i didn't see. So retesting I'm getting

My IPA: 1400
My Stout: 1300
My Pale Ale: 1400

Commercial Beers
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale: 750-950 (It's jumping around for some reason)
Lagunitas: 950

So my question was wrong after all. The real question is, why are my numbers so high!?!

 

[mabrungard]

It could be that the commercials, filter their beer. That might affect conductivity, but I'm not sure.

 

[ajdelange]

You really can't conclude much about ion content from TDS because it is really a conductivity measurement reported, usually, as the concentration of pure sodium chloride which would lead to the observed conductivity while in fact the conductivity contributed by each ion is a function not only of the ion but its mobility. Keep in mind that malt contains a lot of mineral content and that most of the inorganic ions found in finished beer will be from malt minerals rather than water unless you are doing insane things with mineral additions.

As filtration does not remove things like chloride, sulfate, sodium, potassium, calcium, magneium,... it won't have much, if any, effect.

 

[thefost]

I wondered if carbonation or temperature might effect the TDS meter at all so for fun I left my samples on the counter overnight and checked them this morning. They read

Sucks 1370ppm
SNPA 1030ppm

My Stout 1510ppm
My pale ale 1450
My IPA #1 1540
My IPA #2 1700

You really can't conclude much about ion content from TDS because it is really a conductivity measurement reported, usually, as the concentration of pure sodium chloride which would lead to the observed conductivity while in fact the conductivity contributed by each ion is a function not only of the ion but its mobility. Keep in mind that malt contains a lot of mineral content and that most of the inorganic ions found in finished beer will be from malt minerals rather than water unless you are doing insane things with mineral additions.

As filtration does not remove things like chloride, sulfate, sodium, potassium, calcium, magneium,... it won't have much, if any, effect.

Very good points all, hadn't thought about the wort providing the majority of minerals in the finished beer.

So it seems I can't really conclude much of anything from this test. Thats a bummer because I was really hoping I finally had a clue as to why my hoppy beers are tasting very sub par. To be thorough I think I'm going to add some RO water to my brew system, then rims and boil it and confirm if the TDS going in and out are the same. Assuming that goes as expected, I'll have to look for other places in my system I might be ruining my beers.

 

[ajdelange]

Good water is a sine qua non for good beer but a wide range of waters allow good beer to be made. People are starting to think that tweaking water can solve problems that are not really water related. The idea behind the Primer is to let you formulate a water that will make a decent beer so that you can concentrate on the other aspects of brewing. There's nothing you can add to water to make your beer taste citrusy, piney or fruity (well, OK, citric acid but I don't recommend that) but using the proper hop cultivars in the proper schedule and using the proper yeast strains in an appropriate schedule will.

 

[thefost]

Good water is a sine qua non for good beer but a wide range of waters allow good beer to be made. People are starting to think that tweaking water can solve problems that are not really water related. The idea behind the Primer is to let you formulate a water that will make a decent beer so that you can concentrate on the other aspects of brewing. There's nothing you can add to water to make your beer taste citrusy, piney or fruity (well, OK, citric acid but I don't recommend that) but using the proper hop cultivars in the proper schedule and using the proper yeast strains in an appropriate schedule will.

Definitely agree with all that. Thats why I've been using the hop stoopid recipe straight from lagunitas so I have a baseline. I know exactly what that recipe should taste like, and my results are not even in the same ballpark. My hop stoopid clone tastes and smells like my Sierra Pale Clone tastes like my Enjoy By clone... dull and lifeless.

So I know at least the Stoopid recipe should be sweet and citrusy, and while water can't make it taste that way, if I made a mistake somewhere its plausable that I could be ruining my beers with water issues. Honestly I've worked so hard perfecting my system, I really don't know what else could consistently causing me problems. Its driving me nuts! :smack:

 

[zwiller]

Good water is a sine qua non for good beer but a wide range of waters allow good beer to be made. People are starting to think that tweaking water can solve problems that are not really water related. The idea behind the Primer is to let you formulate a water that will make a decent beer so that you can concentrate on the other aspects of brewing. There's nothing you can add to water to make your beer taste citrusy, piney or fruity (well, OK, citric acid but I don't recommend that) but using the proper hop cultivars in the proper schedule and using the proper yeast strains in an appropriate schedule will.

+1

If you are not using over a pound of hops in a 5G batch you are not come even close to Hop Stoopid or other hop bombs. These days I hear 30oz is the upper limit... Use mostly late additions/hop stands/dryhops.

 

[thefost]

+1

If you are not using over a pound of hops in a 5G batch you are not come even close to Hop Stoopid or other hop bombs. These days I hear 30oz is the upper limit... Use mostly late additions/hop stands/dryhops.

Well the recipe didn't call for a pound, but it had this:

14 lbs 2 row
.5 lb Briess Victory
1 oz Nugget at 90 minutes
5.5 ml Hopshot at 60 minutes
0.65 oz Cascade and 0.65 Chinook at 12 min
1.3 oz Simcoe at flameout, wait 10 min before chilling
Dry Hop
.77 oz chinook
1.5 oz simcoe
3 oz columbus

For this second time I brewed this I upped the hops to 1 oz Cascade and 1 oz Chinook at 12 min and 2 oz Simcoe at flameout with a 45 minute hop stand at 180 degrees. And my batch will have a final volume of 4 gallons, which again means I'm using more hops than lagunitas is.

So I don't understand why my beer tastes and smells nothing like theirs. This should be plenty of hops to get the hops to come through, but they just aren't. And it tastes and smells just like my previous IPAs and pales. I have yet to make a beer that I would describe as sweet, fruity, or piney, no matter how many hops I throw in.

 

[rmyurick]

Hard to get the same dry hop aroma as the pros. They make sure all the yeast is pretty much dropped out, b/c the yeast attracts some of the hop compounds. You could try dry hopping later, or in two additions.

 

[thefost]

Hard to get the same dry hop aroma as the pros. They make sure all the yeast is pretty much dropped out, b/c the yeast attracts some of the hop compounds. You could try dry hopping later, or in two additions.

I may be wrong, but I don't think this is a dry hop issue. I think the sweetness comes from the late hops. Dry hops smell, well, like a bag of hops, but I think the citrus comes from the hop oil and its interaction with yeast. For example, Sierra Pale is sweet smelling and tasting but uses no dry hops. A similar west coast type flavor and aroma is missing here, and I don't think any amount of dry hops would fix that.

 

[zwiller]

Googled the recipe is there is a fair amount of dissension that the recipe is not accurate or correctly scaled for homebrewers. I agree.

Fost, I think you are on the right track bumping the late additions/hops stand and would suggest to bumping it again. Try 2oz each of cascade/chinook @12M, and 4oz simcoe hopstand BUT change the hop stand temp. I did NOT like my results of <180F hop stands and would tell you to keep the temps up, lid on for 30 minutes, and stir now and then. I did alot of hopstand testing, higher temps more flavor, lower temps more aroma.

I would be sure to use the Lagunitas yeast too. Probably english.

 

[logdrum]

Here's a question, are you using a hop bag and plate chiller?

 

[zwiller]

I assume you are asking OP but if not, I do not use hop bags and use an IC.

 

[thefost]

Here's a question, are you using a hop bag and plate chiller?

Nope, using immersion chiller and free hops. I used to use a hop bag and plate chiller but I'm trying to do everything I can to get my hop oil extraction perfect.

 

[thefost]

Googled the recipe is there is a fair amount of dissension that the recipe is not accurate or correctly scaled for homebrewers. I agree.

Fost, I think you are on the right track bumping the late additions/hops stand and would suggest to bumping it again. Try 2oz each of cascade/chinook @12M, and 4oz simcoe hopstand BUT change the hop stand temp. I did NOT like my results of <180F hop stands and would tell you to keep the temps up, lid on for 30 minutes, and stir now and then. I did alot of hopstand testing, higher temps more flavor, lower temps more aroma.

I would be sure to use the Lagunitas yeast too. Probably english.

Hmm, I'm going to have to research this recipe some more. If I make it a 3rd time (likely) I'll using all of your recommendations. I may have to do a 1 gallon (shudders) extract version so I know that my setup isnt causing any problems.

 

[thefost]

Yesterday I decided to test whether or not "stuff" is getting into my water. I ran through the entire process of making beer (clean everything with hot PBW, RIMS recirculate, electric boil, cool down with immersion chiller, the works) only I used just RO water and no malts at all. I wanted to see if the water going into my system was the same water coming out. I did TDS readings of the water throughout the entire process, and also learned you have to cool the sample before TDS testing.

Results:
1) Initial RO Water 41ppm
2) Mash in 50ppm
3) End of RIMS recirculation 74ppm
4) Transfer to boil 80ppm
5) End of boil - 88ppm
6) End of Chill - 90ppm

Most importantly I did a final taste test. Wasn't great, the water was a little funky and not something I'd want to drink a glass of.

So what's happening here? I have a few guesses. For step 2 I think that despite rinsing everything twice, there was still a little left over PBW water in there somewhere.

Step 3 is of the biggest concern, I think that either PBW is getting stuck to my RIMS heating element and then slowly coming off, or the coating of my heating element is slowly coming off. Either way not good.

Between step 4 and 5 I noticed some flakes of stuff, possibly old hops, had entered the boil. It looks like PBW is not doing a thorough job of cleaning my March pump.

So, long story short, I ended with 90ppm water that tasted just a little bit funky. Is this acceptable or something I need to be concerned about?