Water Report Q's

[radwizard]

I recently received a report of my brewing water from Ward Labs. I was hoping to get some insight, to what my next step should be. I am currently researching more info about water chemistry, but it feels like I have a long way to go until I can understand water chemistry well enough to enhance my brewing.

The first question I had was about the Bicarbonate. When I enter the data in Brunwater, it asks for a correction. Basically it says my profile is out of balance, and wants me to correct the Bicarbonate. FWIW my report states Bicarbonate as 132, and the Brunwater correction is 170.
I dont really follow why this would be out of balance from the initial report.

My water is harder then I thought it would be. I am thinking that my first course of action is to dilute this water with store bought RO water, and kind of go from there. This seems like the easiest way to get a start into dealing with my water after reading the sticky on water premier.

I would appreciate any advice or insight on this water report, as I continue studying up on it. I think I may have missed an important day of chemistry class!

Cheers

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You're actual sulfate is 12 ppm. Try it that way and see if BW still barks at you. If it does, ignore it.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The cations (positive charge) and anions (negative charge) should balance - in your report they don't, which is why Bru'n water wants a correction. Be aware that your sulphate is actually 12 (not 4) as it's reported as SO4-S, which needs to be multiplied by 3 to get actual sulphate. That'll help the balance a little bit. Apart from that, I'd leave the numbers as they are in the report - with the error. You can't be overly confident with them but water sources vary by more than that anyway.

On to working with your water.....
There's a reasonable amount of alkalinity (bicarbonate) in there, but not too much - you can neutralise it with acid and leave out the RO if you want to. Note that it's the alkalinity, not the hardness, that you need to deal with.
You have 132ppm bicarbonate, which is about 2.2mEq/L.
10% phosphoric acid has a strength of about 1.09mEq/mL at pH 5.4.
That means you'd need about 2mL of 10% phosphoric per liter of brewing water to roughly neutralise the alkalinity.
Similarly, you could use 0.16mL of 80% phosphoric acid per liter of brewing water or about 0.2mL of 88% lactic acid per liter of brewing water.

From there, you could simply follow the water primer sticky, or look into building the water profile that you want for the beer you're brewing. You may still need to add more acid (for very pale beers) or less acid (for dark beers), and are likely to want to add flavour salts for pale type ales.

 

[dmtaylor]

That water is really not too bad. Just a bit high on hardness and alkalinity. Nothing a little acid or dark roasted malt can't fix.

I don't use Brunwater so I can't comment there. Regardless, like I said, just need a little acidity. And maybe a little calcium chloride or gypsum, if desired to bring calcium up a bit. That's about it.

 

[radwizard]

Awesome, Thanks guys.
I think I am on my way a bit. I am able to use the spreadsheet to dial in acid additions, and relate the report to some of the things I have learned.

I am putting this info in to a BIAB method, which is going to need a pretty significant acid adjustment. Any particular differences in using Phosphoric, Lactic, or Acidulated Malt?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

The only issue with using acid malt is knowing how acidic it is - they all vary. Apart from that, you should be below the taste threshold with any of them, so there should be very little difference. By 'BIAB method', do you mean full-volume/no-sparge BIAB? If you want to post your recipe, we can help you with the acid additions.

 

[mabrungard]

The first question I had was about the Bicarbonate. When I enter the data in Brunwater, it asks for a correction. Basically it says my profile is out of balance, and wants me to correct the Bicarbonate. FWIW my report states Bicarbonate as 132, and the Brunwater correction is 170.

Um, where is Bru'n Water asking you to correct the bicarbonate?? That seems to be a feature I didn't plan for.

The bottom line is that the water report's anion and cation totals didn't come close enough to balance. That could mean that there are other ions in the water that weren't tested and reported or that there might be an error in the lab testing or reporting. It's just a warning that something seems to be wrong. You can chase the source of the error or you can ignore it. You'll still make beer.

 

[radwizard]

Um, where is Bru'n Water asking you to correct the bicarbonate?? That seems to be a feature I didn't plan for.

The bottom line is that the water report's anion and cation totals didn't come close enough to balance. That could mean that there are other ions in the water that weren't tested and reported or that there might be an error in the lab testing or reporting. It's just a warning that something seems to be wrong. You can chase the source of the error or you can ignore it. You'll still make beer.

Perhaps I misinterpreted something. On the Water Report Input Tab, The Alkalinity Conversion Calculator gives me the Estimated Bicarbonate Concentration of 171 ppm. The red flag states to use this value in the Bicarbonate cell above. That cell is what I put my water reports reading of 132 ppm in. When I make this correction the Unbalanced Water Profile prompt goes away.

I am trying to use all this information to understand water better, and ultimately make better beer. So I am trying to chase the source of this error.

What do you think make best course of action is at this point? Do you think I should get another water report, or a different type of testing? Is there a particular Bicarbonate reading to you think I should use as an input, or is the data invalid due to the unbalance in the readings?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perhaps I misinterpreted something. On the Water Report Input Tab, The Alkalinity Conversion Calculator gives me the Estimated Bicarbonate Concentration of 171 ppm. The red flag states to use this value in the Bicarbonate cell above. That cell is what I put my water reports reading of 132 ppm in. When I make this correction the Unbalanced Water Profile prompt goes away.

Your report states that your Bicarbonate is 132, and therefore that is what it is. It is not 171.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perhaps I misinterpreted something. On the Water Report Input Tab, The Alkalinity Conversion Calculator gives me the Estimated Bicarbonate Concentration of 171 ppm.

Not if you properly entered 109 ppm alkalinity in this field, as per your alkalinity from your Ward Labs report.

 

[radwizard]

Not if you properly entered 109 ppm alkalinity in this field, as per your alkalinity from your Ward Labs report.

Ok, Thank You. I see where I made a mistake on that tab. I was putting a value for Total Hardness rather then Total Alkalinity in the cell. Doh!
Cheers!

 

[radwizard]

The only issue with using acid malt is knowing how acidic it is - they all vary. Apart from that, you should be below the taste threshold with any of them, so there should be very little difference. By 'BIAB method', do you mean full-volume/no-sparge BIAB? If you want to post your recipe, we can help you with the acid additions.

I'm planning on brewing a simple Grisette.

12 gallon batch
10 LBS Pilsner
4 LBS White Wheat
1 LB Flaked Oats

I will do a full volume mash with 14 gallons of strike water.
With the data I gathered from my water report, I am planning on added 88% Lactic Acid at a rate of 0.8 mL/Gal (11.2 ML total) , also I plan on adding on adding Gypsum at 0.2 gr/Gal (2.8 gr Total) This get my Mash Ph to 5.27 from what I gather.

Does that look OK for starters?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Depending upon your particular lots of Pilsner and White Wheat you may wind up mashing at closer to 5.45 pH, but to me that would be a plus. Best of luck with your beer!

 

[radwizard]

Depending upon your particular lots of Pilsner and White Wheat you may wind up mashing at closer to 5.45 pH, but to me that would be a plus. Best of luck with your beer!

The brewing went well. I made the additions as mentioned previously, hit all my numbers, etc etc.
I took a sample of the wort after my mash rest was complete. I let it cool down to 60 and took my reading, which was 5.6 I was unaware that there was a conversion here and assumed that all of these reading should be taken at about 60F. I was just reading your lastest thread, and another poster states 5.6 is more like 5.35 at mash temp. Do agree with that?

Another thing I have been curious about: How did you come to the assumption that I would be mashing closer to 5.45 with the white wheat and pils? Being a total newb at brewing water, I am trying to understand as much as I can. My original estimate of 5.27 was what BrunWater provided me based on the data I provided. I'm just wondering if I missed something or there is more to it then that.

Thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The brewing went well. I made the additions as mentioned previously, hit all my numbers, etc etc.
I took a sample of the wort after my mash rest was complete. I let it cool down to 60 and took my reading, which was 5.6 I was unaware that there was a conversion here and assumed that all of these reading should be taken at about 60F. I was just reading your lastest thread, and another poster states 5.6 is more like 5.35 at mash temp. Do agree with that?

Another thing I have been curious about: How did you come to the assumption that I would be mashing closer to 5.45 with the white wheat and pils? Being a total newb at brewing water, I am trying to understand as much as I can. My original estimate of 5.27 was what BrunWater provided me based on the data I provided. I'm just wondering if I missed something or there is more to it then that.

Thanks!

Response to paragraph 1) pH is generally observed to rise during and throughout the progression of the mash, so your 5.6 post mash and pre-boil pH reading taken at ballpark room temperature was probably: A) Likely around 5.45 pH at the 15 minute mark of the mash (and for the case of being read at room temperature). B) Likely on the ballpark order of 5.3 pH if it had actually been measured at mash temperature.

Response to paragraph 2) I have my own free mash pH assistant software called 'Mash Made Easy', which is available as a download from my website. I think it actually told me 5.46 mash pH when I plugged in your parameters. I don't use BnW. That said, wheat and pilsner malt are both more basic with respect to the most generally targeted 5.4 mash pH than would be a typical pale or 2-Row brewers type (or a generic) base malt. Thus they generally give higher mash pH results than a mere presumption that they are the same as for other base malts would predict.