Water Report and Tool Usage

[jyda]

Hello,

Forgive me for yet another water report thread. I just received mine and wanted to be sure I understood what I'm seeing and how to use the Palmer spreadsheet.

Water Report:
Alkalinity 23
Bicarbonate 24
Calcium 5.4
Chloride 5.6
Chlorine 1
Haloacetic Acids (ppb) 20
Hardness 21
Magnesium 1.8
pH 7.4
Sodium 5.5
Sulfate 2.1
Total Dissolved Solids 44
Total Trihalomethanes (ppb) 22

So pluggin this into the Palmer spreadsheet with a Kolsch recipe I get:

Target SRM: 3.5
Effective Hardness: 5
RA: 18
Chloride to Sulfate Ratio: Very Malty
Target Estimated RA (Average): -51
Mash Water Vol: 3.5 gallons
Additional Alkalinity Needed: 33

By adding .75g of baking soda I could get the needed alkalinity. But that seems to0 simple. Am I missing something? Besides the Chloride to Sulfate ratio, are there any glaring issues that could be corrected (Calcium, Magnesium and Sodium seem low to me).

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance

 

[Nateo]

My only advice is to never trust those RA spreadsheets, get a pH meter or precision pH test strips, and don't make any assumptions about your mash pH without actually measuring it. I almost always have to acidify my mash, and I have never had to alkalize it.

Those spreadsheets estimate pH based on SRM, which is very bad way to estimate pH.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Beer_color,_alkalinity_and_mash_pH

"There is no simple curve that can estimate grist pH from beer color."

 

[jyda]

Hmm good point. As for the pH in the mash I was hoping to adjust that using 5.2 buffer.

 

[ajdelange]

While the RA dependence on SRM may be the biggest hoax in home brewing 5.2 is probably the second. Do a search here and you will find this explained many times. You definitely do not need extra alkalinity for a Kölsch. Quite the contrary - you will need some acid. Also, forget chloride to sulfate ratio for this beer. It is German and the German idea (with some exceptions) is that sulfate as low as possible is desired.

 

[Nateo]

I'll save you the trouble of searching:
http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=1125.0

AJ Delange knows a thing or two about beer, I'd listen to him.

 

[jyda]

While the RA dependence on SRM may be the biggest hoax in home brewing 5.2 is probably the second. Do a search here and you will find this explained many times. You definitely do not need extra alkalinity for a Kölsch. Quite the contrary - you will need some acid. Also, forget chloride to sulfate ratio for this beer. It is German and the German idea (with some exceptions) is that sulfate as low as possible is desired.

Duly noted, thanks for the tip. Looks like I've got a lot more research to do. Thanks.

 

[winvarin]

While the RA dependence on SRM may be the biggest hoax in home brewing 5.2 is probably the second. Do a search here and you will find this explained many times. You definitely do not need extra alkalinity for a Kölsch. Quite the contrary - you will need some acid. Also, forget chloride to sulfate ratio for this beer. It is German and the German idea (with some exceptions) is that sulfate as low as possible is desired.

What exceptions?

 

[ajdelange]

The obvious one is Export - Dortmund water is quite high in sulfate. I'm sure there are others. I wonder about the (at one time) intensely bitter Jever Pils. The bitterness was so over the top that I suspect the water used was high in sulfate. It has been considerably wimped down from what it used to be as I remember it.

 

[jyda]

Just to update this necrothread, I read the primer and decided to go with RO water and a ph meter. Mostly the decision was two fold:

1) to eliminate a possible hose related nastiness
2) better control / less variables in the water and ph

Recently did another Kolsch and used 1/2 tsp of CaCl2 and 3.2ml of lactic acid (LHBS was out of acidulated malt) for a mash ph of 5.5 at room temp.

Hope I read and understood the primer properly

 

[ajdelange]

It certainly seems you did.

 

[jyda]

Another necro thread update.

I'm thinking of giving my Kolsch another run but wanted to comment on the previous additions to the RO water. That was 1/2 tsp of CaCl2 and 3.2ml of lactic acid.

I had a noticeable amount of sourness in the result. So much that I really didn't care for the brew and left the keg at my dads (who said it was drinkable and had no problem finishing it). I, however, did not care for the sourness.

Did I over-do the lactic? My LHBS is out of acidulated malt, again, and I was hoping that I could re-visit this approach.

Thoughts?

 

[Nateo]

I wouldn't blame the lactic acid for that. 3.2ml isn't much. I've added much more than that and didn't get any noticeable sourness in the finished beer. Maybe it had a very low-level infection?

Lactic does have a distinct flavor and isn't a very strong acid. Maybe your personal taste threshold for lactic is lower than mine? Maybe try phosphoric acid next time to acidify the mash?

 

[jyda]

Hmm, definitely could be a low level infection. I've never had one to compare. I think I'll try the same ratios again and hopefully find an answer.

Thanks for the response.

 

[jyda]

Well the second batch used 2.3 ml of lactic acid and is 3 weeks old. Pulled a sample and it too has a distinct sourness to it. Less pronounced than the previous one, but still very present.

Any chance this is just green beer syndrome? I have never had this issue when using acidulated malt, which from what I understand is simply malt sprayed with lactic acid.

I bought a new fermentor and was sure to wash it out well and ensure I used a proper dilution of star-san to reduce any other areas where acidity could come from. I'm at a loss here and have been disappointed with my water adjustments for this kolsch so far.

I guess next batch I'll try some phosphoric acid to bring the ph where it needs to be...

 

[ajdelange]

I guess next batch I'll try some phosphoric acid to bring the ph where it needs to be...

That's a key issue. How did you come up with the additions you chose? What is the DI water pH of your grist. What was the pH after addition of the acid? What is the water like?

For a little perspective: if your water has alkalinity of 189 ppm as CaCO3 at pH 7 it will take 6.2 mL of 88% lactic to reduce the pH of 5.5 gallons of it to 5.5. If, OTOH, its alkalinity is 23 it would only take 0.68 mL.

If you mash 10 lbs of pilsner malt with soft water - say 15 qts of it, you should get a mash pH of about 5.7. The easiest way to deal with this is to add 2% sauermazl in the expectation that you will get a mash pH of about 5.5. 10 lbs is 4540 grams and 2% of that is 90.8 grams. The acid content of sauermalz is generally around 2% so you would want 1.8 grams of lactic acid if you were to use the acid in that form rather than as the malt. That would correspond to 1.7 mL of 88% acid so your 2.3 is too much but not that much so (35%). Of course I am WAGing as to what your grist and water are like.

 

[jyda]

Brewing this again right now will mark down the notes for this grist:

11# pils
1# Vienna
1# wheat

5.5 gal RO strike water

Added 1/2 tsp CaCl2

 

[jyda]

So after about 20 mins, pH of mash is 5.3. I took this at 65F, same temp that I used the calibration fluids on.

So I'm not going to add any lactic acid.

Thoughts?

 

[jyda]

Grr went back and recalibrated and tested 3 times. Each time the calibration seemed off a few tenths. Now it's at 5.6.

 

[ajdelange]

5.6 is more reasonable.

I think you may be suffering from jumpy meter syndrome. Calibrate you meter and then read the 2 buffers every 10 minutes or so. If the numbers jump around (4.00, 3.85, 3.9, 4.2, 4.1) then you are pretty much screwed but if they drift and stabilize (4.00, 4.05, 4.10, 4.15, 4.16, 4.15...) then you can use the meter but you will have to do some calculations external to it.

 

[jyda]

Makes sense. Assuming I get a better meter (or prove this is reliable) and end up with 5.6, am I correct to assume this is close enough or should I add some acid?

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, I'd add a percent or 2 sauermalz.

 

[jyda]

I think I'm just going to break down and buy a bunch of acid malt. I brew this kolsch at least monthly so having the LHBS run out sucks.

I think I'll brew this again with the same water and grist but with 2% acid malt and see what the pH does. I'll add the acid malt after the mash pH stabilizes to see what affect it has.

Thanks again for the responses.

 

[jyda]

Just at close this out, the latest kolsch has been conditioning for a week or so and it already is the best kolsch I've made.

I'm convinced (not that I really doubted you all ) and ready to invest in a good pH meter. Any suggesting as to which?

 

[Nateo]

Here's the one I use: http://www.hannainst.com/usa/prods2.cfm?id=040003&ProdCode=HI 98107

Regardless of what brand you go with, two things to look for: 2-point calibration (the curve flattens as the probe wears out), and 0.1 pH resolution, or better. Also remember you'll need storage and calibration liquids, so budget for those.

 

[mabrungard]

I'd tighten Nate's recommendation a bit. I suggest that you really do want the resolution to be 0.01 units so that you can see when the pH reading is stabilizing. We don't really have a need for the additional precision in the meter reading since we only concern ourselves with pH down to the 0.1 unit, but the ability to observe the pH reading stability is useful.

 

[Nateo]

Yeah Martin's right. 0.1 is the bare minimum. If you can get 0.01 that'd be better. When I was looking for my meter, the 0.01 meters were about twice as expensive, so I went with the 0.1. Sometimes I wish mine had better resolution, but for most beer-related tasks it's "good enough."