Water Profile for Dry Hopped Lager

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Brian Parfitt

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Hi all,

I'm looking for a water profile suggestion for a DHL I plan to brew this weekend.

I'm starting with RO water.

The recipe is as follows:
8 lbs Pilnser
1 lb Carapils
.5 lb Acidulated Malt

75 min boil
1 Oz Hallertau Mittel @ 75 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 15 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 5 mins

Dry Hop 2 Oz Mosaic

Any suggestions?

Brian
 

Miraculix

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Yes, change the 75 min addition to whatever clean bittering high alpha hop you like and most importantly: replace the mosaic with saaz or mittelfrüh. Otherwise you will have a mosaic beer, which can be nice, but would be a waste of saaz. If you would want to stick to mosaic, you could drop all the late additions entirely. Mosaic is powerful, there won't be any space for the saaz to come through.
 

Brooothru

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Yes, change the 75 min addition to whatever clean bittering high alpha hop you like and most importantly: replace the mosaic with saaz or mittelfrüh. Otherwise you will have a mosaic beer, which can be nice, but would be a waste of saaz. If you would want to stick to mosaic, you could drop all the late additions entirely. Mosaic is powerful, there won't be any space for the saaz to come through.
THIS^^^

Bitter with Hallertau Magnum, or maybe Perle. Ten minutes for Hall Mittelfruh, flame out for Saaz. Total IBUs <30.

The grist bill screams Continental Lager. Don't mess it up with a non-Noble hop like Mosaic. Save that for a juicy IPA or hoppy pale ale.
 

wepeeler

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+1 on skipping the Mosaic. Also, I would bitter with Saaz and use Hallertau Mittelfruh for the later additions.
 

michaeltrego

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Regarding the water profile, I would target something similar to a Helles/Pilsner around 50 ppm each for Ca, SO4 and Cl. And Mg and Na <5ppm. And CaCO3 as low as possible.
 

nwhall3

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I agree with the previous responders about Mosaic (i.e. nix it), but I'll provide my thoughts on your original question re: water profile. I'd go very soft: 50 ppm or less for Ca, and even less sulfate and chloride.
 
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Brian Parfitt

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Thanks for all the feedback here.... I plan on using this at a brew session with some friends this weekend. They had suggested a lighter drinking 'warm weather' beer, but they are all also hopheads. I suggested the dry hopped lager as an experimental compromise.

I'd still like there to be some hoppy punch to this when done... There seems to be multiple recommendations to skip the Mosaic and dry hop with either Saaz or Mittlefruh. That's an interesting suggestion as I'd not considered dry hopping with either of those before.

I need another fermenter so I can run multiple batches.. I would give both of these approaches a shot to see how they came out.
 

jdauria

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A dry hops lager...so almost like an Italian Pilsner that I am brewing tomorrow, which is basically a German Pils dry hopped with low alpha German hops. So or that beer, and most of my lagers, I go with a "soft lager" profile. I am going with Calcium of 35 ppm, Sulfate at 31 and Chloride of 38.5, which is a balanced profile. You want to accent the hoppy punch, so you could just increase sulfate to to around 40 and drop chloride down to 25-30 and that will be a "bitter" balance.
 

Miraculix

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A dry hops lager...so almost like an Italian Pilsner that I am brewing tomorrow, which is basically a German Pils dry hopped with low alpha German hops. So or that beer, and most of my lagers, I go with a "soft lager" profile. I am going with Calcium of 35 ppm, Sulfate at 31 and Chloride of 38.5, which is a balanced profile. You want to accent the hoppy punch, so you could just increase sulfate to to around 40 and drop chloride down to 25-30 and that will be a "bitter" balance.
This balance thing between chloride and sulfate does not really apply this way when the levels are this low. It wouldn't make a difference.
 

jdauria

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This balance thing between chloride and sulfate does not really apply this way when the levels are this low. It wouldn't make a difference.
True...the difference would be miniscule and not noticed by most palettes. I should have mentioned that, thanks.
 

bkboiler

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A number of years ago I made a strong 6% lager fermented with wlp 802. Straw colored, and I can't remember what I did with the water...
But I bittered with magnum, tossed in saaz at knockout and dry hopped with simcoe. I called it Piney the Lager.
It did indeed have a lot of pine aroma which the dryness accentuated nicely in my opinion.
I'd have to agree about the mosaic.
 

Brooothru

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A number of years ago I made a strong 6% lager fermented with wlp 802. Straw colored, and I can't remember what I did with the water...
But I bittered with magnum, tossed in saaz at knockout and dry hopped with simcoe. I called it Piney the Lager.
It did indeed have a lot of pine aroma which the dryness accentuated nicely in my opinion.
I'd have to agree about the mosaic.
"Piney the Lager!"

I LOVE it!!!
 

jerrylotto

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Also decoction mash!

Here is my Pilsner water profile:
IONLager (Pilsner) (target)
Ca+2
100​
Mg+2
18​
Na+1
20​
Cl-1
45​
S04-2
105​
HCO3-1
235​
And this is how I get there with RO
Name
FormulaLager (grams) / 7 gal
ChalkCaCO3
8​
Baking SodaNaHCO3
1.9​
GypsumCaSO42.1
Epsom SaltMgSO4
4.9​
Canning SaltNaCl0
Calcium ChlorideCaCl2
2.5​
 
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Murph4231

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Hi all,

I'm looking for a water profile suggestion for a DHL I plan to brew this weekend.

I'm starting with RO water.

The recipe is as follows:
8 lbs Pilnser
1 lb Carapils
.5 lb Acidulated Malt

75 min boil
1 Oz Hallertau Mittel @ 75 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 15 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 5 mins

Dry Hop 2 Oz Mosaic

Any suggestions?

Brian
Hi all,

I'm looking for a water profile suggestion for a DHL I plan to brew this weekend.

I'm starting with RO water.

The recipe is as follows:
8 lbs Pilnser
1 lb Carapils
.5 lb Acidulated Malt

75 min boil
1 Oz Hallertau Mittel @ 75 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 15 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 5 mins

Dry Hop 2 Oz Mosaic

Any suggestions?

Brian
Sounds like my favorite pilsner recipe except the mosaic. I'd skip them altogether and dry hop with saaz instead.
 

hopfenstopfen

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Hi all,

I'm looking for a water profile suggestion for a DHL I plan to brew this weekend.

I'm starting with RO water.

The recipe is as follows:
8 lbs Pilnser
1 lb Carapils
.5 lb Acidulated Malt

75 min boil
1 Oz Hallertau Mittel @ 75 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 15 mins
1 Oz Saaz @ 5 mins

Dry Hop 2 Oz Mosaic

Any suggestions?

Brian
Brian -- The advice above is sound, but it seems like you may be after a different breed of Pilsner. It sounds like you are after the type of Pilsners being brewed recently on the US West Coast? You might want to have a look at this thread: Bo Berry Pils West Coast Pilsner
I've tried my hand at a couple of these brews, but have nothing dialed in. I think a generic water profile would suit your first attempt. I've used Bru'n water's Yellow Dry as a starting place & the above thread has similar suggestions.

There are a number of breweries out there using classic noble hops on the hotside and some new, fruity american hops on the cold side.
Here is a commercial example I really liked the veil -- perle & el dorado hop combo.

Personally, I think your recipe above is a good place to start. You can decrease the DH mosaic to 1oz or slightly less. I also recommend a neutral bittering hop early in the boil & putting the hallertau & saaz in mid/late to lay a nice noble spicy foundation. Cheers.
 

Brooothru

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That actually might make me try one of these New World hopped lagers. I'll admit to being a little hide-bound by "tradition" with regards to noble hops in lagers, but Cascade as a finishing hop (lightly 'kissed') might actually be a pleasant diversion from the norm.

Sierra Nevada was the company that made Cascade famous, or maybe it was the other way around. Either way, maybe they could catch lightning in a bottle again some 30 years later. Might have to try this.
 

Miraculix

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Sounds like Bitburger/Sierra Nevada’s Triple Hop’d Lager. Try to find a can if you can, it is fantastic. I think they are using Cascade on the back end, a great beer!
View attachment 728575
This is actually one of the rare examples where a German brewery managed to make something American which actually tastes really good! I guess the Sierra guys deserve the medal :D
 

Bramling Cross

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It took me a while to figure this out, but I've learned that I like to run a 2:1 ratio of gypsum to calcium chloride in hoppy lagers. The gypsum helps to keep the finish tidy and sets up the hops to linger on the tongue. The lingering hops helps to bookend the hop aroma that hits your nose prior to taking a sip and leaves the drinker with a clear impression that the lager is meant to be hoppy--rather than the work of a brewer with a clumsy, heavy hand with the hops.

You also might want to consider your pre-boil pH. As a rule, I tend to adjust my lagers to pH 5.2 prior to the boil. However, I've recently been goofing around with pH 5.3-5.4 with my hoppy lagers. I like 5.3, it lets the hops pop a bit more than usual. 5.4 can get a bit rough around the edges.

Finally, consider a whirlpool addition. I've found that whirlpool hops can sometimes get lost in a hoppy ale, especially one that has been dry hopped. Not so, in a hoppy lager. A two ounce whirlpool of noble hops at 170F for twenty minutes is pretty amazing. Also, I took a sneak peek at a dip hopped hoppy lager that I kegged last weekend. That thing is going to be a nice.
 
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Bramling Cross

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That actually might make me try one of these New World hopped lagers. I'll admit to being a little hide-bound by "tradition" with regards to noble hops in lagers, but Cascade as a finishing hop (lightly 'kissed') might actually be a pleasant diversion from the norm.
I dipped my toe in a few months ago with a lager that paired Wakatu and Cashmere in the whirlpool and as dry hops. It was really interesting, but it took me a while to wrap my head around it. The fruity, tropical flavors that my hops pairing produced were adjacent to The Bad Esters of the lager world. At first, this was alarming, but once I had assured myself that the beer was properly made, it became quite enjoyable.

Next time, I'll definitely be working on citrus/piney side of the spectrum.
 

couchsending

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Add more Mosaic...

I make lots of very traditional lagers but have also made four or five of these kind of modern new school hop forward lagers. I wouldN’t call them IPLs but more Pilsners with modern hop character.

I’d WP with 2oz of Mosaic as well. You can do whatever you’d like for kettle addictions. I tend to do a 70/40 with something like Perle then a 20 minute addition with a more delicate hop of noble variety. Then WP and DH with a modern hop or two. I’m generally not a big fan of many noble hops added after 10 minutes remaining in the boil. IMHO there are certain characteristics of noble varieties that actually benefit from being boiled. Especially the noble hops we as homebrewers get. They’re rarely very good.

As far as water goes... I think it depends on what yeast you’re using and your FG. Some yeast profiles are soft while others are crisp, regardless of gravity. A FG of 1.008 vs 1.012 might benefit from a different water profile. Also you shouldn’t need that much acid malt. With RO and that grain Bill 4-5oz is all you need. I’d think 8oz would drive your pH really low.

50ppm minimum Ca
Split it between CaCl and CaSo4.
A little NaCl could help depending on ABV
Don’t add salts to the sparge, add them to the kettle.
 

Bramling Cross

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Are you whirlpooling in the kettle post boil? About what temp? Do you use a hopback or straight recirculating?
I'm whirlpooling post boil, in a kettle fitted with a whirlpool port. The hops are bagged and suspended a few inches away from the port with a scratch built spider. I've found that using the IC to rapidly reach 170F then recirculating (with the burner cracked open just a hair) to maintain 170-175F for 20min works quite well with hallertauer mittelfrüh, Liberty, etc. I don't use a hopback.

The technique I've outlined will produce a beer that is not in any way traditional. It will, however, produce a soft but obvious wall of noble flavor and aroma. It will stand out from the crowd.

I'm not fond of the higher temp whirlpool rests, for reasons touched upon in couchsending's earlier post. Worse, it's tricky to control your IBU load at those higher temps. However, your question has prompted me to consider why I've settled on 170F. Perhaps I should look into the area around140-150F? If my memory serves, I found that window to be pretty useless with hoppy ales, but lagers? That might be worth looking into.
 

Beermeister32

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I'm interested, my kettle lacks a whirlpool port. I do have a hop spider. Thinking about locating an add on port if they exist, are you using the kettle outlet as the other recirculating port, or does it require two of the tangential ports? Are you using a lid at that temp?
 
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