Water Profile advice.....

[madkap_78]

I am going to brew two beers over the next week, an IPA and a Left hand milk stout clone. I just started experimenting with adding salts to my water and these will be my first batches using them. I use r/o water for my brews.
For the IPA I think Ive decided to use a water profile that looks like this:

CA 100 ppm
MG 0 ppm
NA 0 ppm
SO4 200 ppm
CL 25 ppm

Is this an acceptable water profile? Im going for a hoppy, dry, IPA.

The other question I have is am not sure what additions to use for the milk stout? What water profiles have others used on their milk stouts that have turned out good? What additions will bring out the malt and flavor of the milk stout? Whats a good PH to mash it at? Any feedback would be welcome.

 

[mabrungard]

That will be fine. It may not have all the nuances that a more mineralized profile MIGHT deliver. But it won't be bland. Brewing with straight distilled or RO water can produce some very bland beer.

For the Milk Stout, you are likely to need a bit of alkalinity to help smooth the beer flavor and avoid a too tart flavor. I bit of baking soda in the mash may be all you need in order to supply the needed alkalinity. I find that a bit of sodium is a nice compliment in a dark beer. In addition to the baking soda, calcium chloride and a little gypsum will be helpful to the ferment and flavor. I suggest you review the black or brown water profiles in Bru'n Water to help get an idea of modest ion content you might consider in that stout. Less is more when it comes to minerals in brewing water.

For god's sake, don't use a Dublin or other historical water profile without some careful evaluation.

 

[FatsSchindee]

For the Milk Stout, you are likely to need a bit of alkalinity to help smooth the beer flavor and avoid a too tart flavor. I bit of baking soda in the mash may be all you need in order to supply the needed alkalinity. I find that a bit of sodium is a nice compliment in a dark beer. In addition to the baking soda, calcium chloride and a little gypsum will be helpful to the ferment and flavor. I suggest you review the black or brown water profiles in Bru'n Water to help get an idea of modest ion content you might consider in that stout. Less is more when it comes to minerals in brewing water. For god's sake, don't use a Dublin or other historical water profile without some careful evaluation.

I'm about to brew a dry stout, and am wondering if the above advice would still apply (I would guess so). I'm building up from RO, and after messing around with different mineral additions in my software (using brewersfriend.com - I'm on the road with an iPad, and don't have excel or a spreadsheet program, but do check it against brunwater on my home computer before I brew), I've come up with the following numbers. They look like they fit with the quoted advice, but this is only my third time adjusting water and first using baking soda (first stout with it), so just wanted some feedback, please...

Grist (for 2.75 gal post-boil):
2.25 lb pale malt (60%)
12 oz flaked barley (20%)
4 oz roasted barley (6.7%)
2 oz choc malt (3.3%)
[and 6 oz - 10% - brown sugar in boil, but not mash, obviously - looking to make it a little drier, as the wlp004 isn't that attenuative...]
Grist DI water pH: 5.54

Mash in 7 qts water 152*, then sparge 7 qts 168*
Am only going to treat mash water, and sparge with RO - have read that's okay, unless it's different for a stout and I shouldn't?

1.5 g gypsum
2.5 g CaCl
1 g baking soda

...gets me:

Ca - 77.4
Mg - 0
Na - 20.5
Cl - 90.5
SO4 - 62.8
CaCO3 - 46.8
Mash pH - 5.46

SO4/Cl ratio - 0.7 Malty

How's that look? Any suggestions?

 

[ajdelange]

That's a lot of minerals for 1 - 3/4 gal of water. Calcium would be 189 mg/L, sulfate at 126 and chloride 241 which last is way too high. Alkalinity would go to 90 and the pH shift to 8.3 (not that that in itself is important). The 'good' news is that the calcium will theoretically cancel the bicarbonate. I'd start with something much more modest like 3/4 gram each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. This would give you calcium at 67 sulfate at 63 and chloride at 72. Skip the bicarbonate - you won't need it for dry stout at those levels of roasted grains. I don't think of dry stout as a minerally 'crunchy' beer nor do I find the hops assertive in examples like Guiness or Murphy's but even if I did I would recommend that you start with modest mineral additions and then experiment with additions of additional gypsum and calcium chloride in the glass. This will guide you towards additional mineral additions in the brewing water should your tasting prove that they lend benefit.

 

[mabrungard]

Are you sure the water quantities are correct? As AJ points out, that seems a bit minerally.

With that aside, brewers should understand that dry stout is a different animal than other stouts and porters. It is built on low mineralized water and a relatively low kettle wort pH. Those goals are almost antithetical to other stout and porter brewing. A good explanation of Irish brewing water is presented in the Nov/Dec 2013 issue of Zymurgy. AHA members have that already. (I'm hoping that you are an AHA member, if not, why not?)

The good thing is that since you are starting with RO water, the opportunity to brew great dry stout is there. A reasonable target profile for dry stout is the Wicklow Mountain water profile shown below. It has low mineralization across the board.

Ca:18 Mg:2 Na:13 SO4:22 Cl:20 HCO3:35

Brewing a dry stout with its roast barley in that low alkalinity water will push the mash pH too low. So you do need to reserve the roast barley from the main mash and add it at the end of the mash.

You might need to acidify the mashing water slightly to get the pale malt and raw barley mash to get down in the right range. If starting with RO, it should have less than the 35 ppm HCO3 content and that does not need to be brought up to that level in this brew. Keep that low. Then you are good to go!

 

[FatsSchindee]

Thanks for looking and commenting guys... I appreciate, and obviously need, the feedback!

I'm using the online calculator at brewersfriend.com (since I use that for recipes, and it imports my grist and volumes right into it), and had it set for "add salts to mash only". I had it set for 7 qt mash and 7 qt sparge, for 3.5 gal total water used (looking for 3.25 pre- and 2.75 post-boil, to put ~2.5 gal into a 3 gal carboy). I assumed the numbers it was giving (and what I quoted above) were for the mash only, but they are indeed for the total volume. I did then change the sparge vol to 0, so then the total was the same as the mash, and the same additions did show much closer to what AJ calculated above. [And for reference, remember, if it matters, that I'm doing BIAB, with a mash in one pot, then a 10 min sparge (dunking bag, then stirring some) in another pot, and then combining the two "runnings" - can you still call them that if they're not being run off?! - into the larger pot for the boil.]

So this tells me two things at this early point on my water chemistry education - I need to know the software I'm using better, and, more importantly, I need to have a better general understanding of the subject! To wit: I guess I don't know whether the mineral counts matter more for the mash, or for the finished beer. I was under the impression that it was the pH that mattered more for the mash (with the beer pH usually falling in line from a good mash pH, and also knowing of course that the mineral additions affect the pH), but the amounts of the minerals mattered more for the final taste of the beer (Cl and SO4, Na, etc) and the fermentation (proper Ca for the yeast).

Obviously, they are all tied together and all important, but am I looking at it wrong? Or, asked more to the point - what volume should I be using to get the water profile numbers that are quoted/recommended for different styles (i.e., the dry stout numbers Martin mentioned above - thanks for that, by the way!)... the mash volume only, or the total (mash and sparge) volume? Or should I be treating my sparge water the same as the mash water, in which case the mineral additions would be proportionate to both volumes, and the numbers wouldn't get "watered down" when applied to the full, more dilute, volume? I've read that sparging with just RO is okay (don't want sparge water to be too acidic - which the Ca+ does, right? - to minimize tannins/astringency in the lower gravity second/sparge runnings?), and it makes things easier on brew day. But, it wouldn't be that much harder to measure out twice each addition, so I could easily do that if needed.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Brewing a dry stout with its roast barley in that low alkalinity water will push the mash pH too low. So you do need to reserve the roast barley from the main mash and add it at the end of the mash. You might need to acidify the mashing water slightly to get the pale malt and raw barley mash to get down in the right range. If starting with RO, it should have less than the 35 ppm HCO3 content and that does not need to be brought up to that level in this brew. Keep that low. Then you are good to go!

Good to know for next time! Unfortunately, I had the grains milled and put together as one grain bill, and therefore into one bag, at the LHBS when I purchased them... So they're all mixed up together, and I won't be able to add the RB at the end of the mash. That's part of the reason I was thinking of adding the baking soda - to counteract the pH-lowering effect of the RB. But, as seen in the calculations below, adding only CaSO4 and CaCl - without the baking soda - still leaves me with a mash pH of 5.43. I assume the calc is based on using the full amount of RB (and all grains) in the full length of mashing, so I should still be okay with no baking soda (or other alkalinity enhancer)... What do you think?

 

[FatsSchindee]

That's a lot of minerals for 1 - 3/4 gal of water. Calcium would be 189 mg/L, sulfate at 126 and chloride 241 which last is way too high. Alkalinity would go to 90 and the pH shift to 8.3 (not that that in itself is important). The 'good' news is that the calcium will theoretically cancel the bicarbonate. I'd start with something much more modest like 3/4 gram each of calcium chloride and calcium sulfate. This would give you calcium at 67 sulfate at 63 and chloride at 72. Skip the bicarbonate - you won't need it for dry stout at those levels of roasted grains.

Here's what the calc says for 0.75 g of CaSO4 and 0.75 g CaCl:

Using 1.75 gal water only (omitting the RO-only sparge water from the equation)-
Ca - 57.2
Cl - 54.6
SO4 - 63.2
Mash pH - 5.43
- pretty similar to what you quoted above (guessing slight difference due to dif software/formula being used?)

Using 1.75 gal mash, but including the 1.75 gal sparge for 3.5 gal total water-
Ca - 28.6
Cl - 27.3
SO4 - 31.6
Mash pH - 5.43 (makes sense it doesn't change, as the rest of the water is added after the mash)
- half of the above (double the RO water will do that, obviously) numbers, and closer to the lower profile Martin recommended above

Which brings me back to my question above - are the profile numbers given more applicable to the mash only, or to the final, higher, volume of beer?

I guess I could just go to the original BIAB technique of just using the full volume of water for the mash, and not sparging at all... That would eliminate my confusion!

 

[mabrungard]

Good to know for next time! Unfortunately, I had the grains milled and put together as one grain bill, and therefore into one bag, at the LHBS when I purchased them... So they're all mixed up together, and I won't be able to add the RB at the end of the mash. That's part of the reason I was thinking of adding the baking soda - to counteract the pH-lowering effect of the RB. But, as seen in the calculations below, adding only CaSO4 and CaCl - without the baking soda - still leaves me with a mash pH of 5.43. I assume the calc is based on using the full amount of RB (and all grains) in the full length of mashing, so I should still be okay with no baking soda (or other alkalinity enhancer)... What do you think?

Oh well, missed the opportunity to reserve the RB. Sure you can use the baking soda, but target a modest pH of 5.3 to 5.4. You might add a dose of lactic acid in the kettle to bring the wort pH down to under 5.2 so that the beer attains its characteristic tartness.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Oh well, missed the opportunity to reserve the RB. Sure you can use the baking soda, but target a modest pH of 5.3 to 5.4. You might add a dose of lactic acid in the kettle to bring the wort pH down to under 5.2 so that the beer attains its characteristic tartness.

Showing 5.43 right now, so I shouldn't need the baking soda. I don't have any acid on hand (though I could swing by the store if needed), but I do have some leftover acid malt from my last batch (which I did buy and store separately from the rest of the grist)... Would that work as well? (And as a side note, would it have to be mashed, or would I still get the acid effect (it's on the outside of the grain, no?) without the sugar by just putting it in the boil kettle?) Or I could add a bit more CaCl or CaSO4 to drop the pH some more, but that would make the water less than the soft profile you suggest...

 

[FatsSchindee]

I've read that sparging with just RO is okay (don't want sparge water to be too acidic - which the Ca+ does, right? - to minimize tannins/astringency in the lower gravity second/sparge runnings?)

I've been reading through your water knowledge page, Martin, and it appears I have this part about sparge water backwards...

"Minor increases in wort or beer pH can create problems in the finished beer. Increased wort and beer pH makes the beer’s bittering perception more ‘coarse’ and less favorable. The isomerization of alpha acids during the boil is increased slightly as wort pH increases, which may add to the coarseness. Increased pH in wort and the finished beer slows the reduction and removal of diacetyl from beer during maturation. During mashing, a pH greater than 6.0 can leach harsh-tasting silicates, tannins, and polyphenols from the grain into the wort (Briggs et. al., 1981). Adjusting sparge water pH to between 5.5 and 6.0 helps avoid raising the mash pH above 6.0 during sparging."

So I guess I DO want it to be more acidic... So I should be treating it as well, I guess? Thanks...
So much to learn... At least I'm trying!

 

[mchrispen]

Fats,

If your water is very alkaline, then acidifying the sparge water to at least 6.0 will prevent the sparge pH from rising and creating the potential for astringency and tannin extraction. Bru'n does split mineral additions into mash (to assist in mash pH) as well as sparge - so you will want to carefully review that tab. If you play with the settings there, you will find that the initial sparge pH is not all that important, rather the alkalinity to overcome with acid.

If you are adjusting with acids, both in the mash and the sparge, then I would also pay particular attention to boil pH and make sure it falls somewhere between 5.4 and 5.6 for good hops utilization and break formation. I think I got that number correct - happy to be corrected.

To be clear, your adjustments will likely be very different between the IPA and the Stout... Martin provides some guidance on the stout and keeping the kettle pH low. I believe he also discusses it in his article on Ireland Brewing waters...

 

[FatsSchindee]

Fats, If your water is very alkaline, then acidifying the sparge water to at least 6.0 will prevent the sparge pH from rising and creating the potential for astringency and tannin extraction. Bru'n does split mineral additions into mash (to assist in mash pH) as well as sparge - so you will want to carefully review that tab. If you play with the settings there, you will find that the initial sparge pH is not all that important, rather the alkalinity to overcome with acid. If you are adjusting with acids, both in the mash and the sparge, then I would also pay particular attention to boil pH and make sure it falls somewhere between 5.4 and 5.6 for good hops utilization and break formation. I think I got that number correct - happy to be corrected. To be clear, your adjustments will likely be very different between the IPA and the Stout... Martin provides some guidance on the stout and keeping the kettle pH low. I believe he also discusses it in his article on Ireland Brewing waters...

Thanks. I'm using RO water, so not alkaline at all. From what I understand, it has pretty much nil buffering capacity, and therefore absorbs some carbon from the air and creates carbonic acid, which lowers the pH below 7 somewhat. Does that sound right? Which is why I was thinking it didn't need to be adjusted at all for sparging. I honestly don't know, though... The more I read, the more I seem to confuse myself!

I think I'll just take AJ's advice above (and from the primer), and just add a bit of gypsum and a bit of CaCl. If I add one gram of each to my 1.75 gal of mash water, brewers friend shows a mash pH of 5.4, and Bru'n Water shows 5.3. Martin mentioned above to shoot for 5.3-5.4, so I feel like that'll work. And it keeps the water relatively soft, which he also recommended. I don't plan to adjust with any acids at this time.

Well, tonight is brew night... So off I go! Thanks again to all for the feedback!

 

[mchrispen]

Best of luck! I also use RO and have not needed yet to acidify my sparge.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Good to hear! Thanks...
This is only my third batch doing all-grain, and therefore water adjustments... The first is bottle conditioning still, so haven't tasted any final products yet, so the "proof is in the pudding", as they say... But samples from first two have tasted good so far, so I'm optimistic. Just more worried about this stout, with the roasted grains... Just read the ColorpHast strip, taken at 20 min into the boil and cooled to room temp, and it appears closest to the 5.0 color. So if Kai's testing is correct about the -0.3 shift with those strips, that should be about 5.3, which is just about right, I hope! Cheers...

 

[mchrispen]

Just got home, looked here and saw that you are in Austin. I am in Bastrop... maybe catch you at a Zealots meeting! or ping if you roll over to Bastrop - the Brewhouse here has some pretty tasty brew!

 

[FatsSchindee]

Just got home, looked here and saw that you are in Austin. I am in Bastrop... maybe catch you at a Zealots meeting! or ping if you roll over to Bastrop - the Brewhouse here has some pretty tasty brew!

I've heard that about the Brewhouse there before... Haven't has the chance to try it myself yet, unfortunately! Would be cool to meet up if I ever do.
How do the club meetings work? I've only been brewing almost a year now, and haven't had the free time to think about joining something like that (travel for work, two little kids at home, and wife that works nights = no free time for me - Well, just enough time to brew at night while the kids are asleep!). I've heard good things about the Zealots - good people and great beer!

 

[mchrispen]

The Zealots if anything is completely informal, and meets monthly, with weekly meet and greets at various brewpubs around town. Hit www.austinzealots.com and read up. No dues or anything. Join the yahoo group where most of the announcements go out. Helpful to get some input from attendees, and the occasional pro-brewer.

I don't get to many of the events, but enjoy them when I can and can talk my wife into driving.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Cool, thanks for the info. Will try to make it out sometime if I can! Cheers...