Water (ion) profile meaning

[EscapeArtistBrewing]

Water profiles conveniently list the the "big six" ions (Ca2+, Mg2+, Na+, Cl-, SO42-, HCO3-), in parts-per-million concentrations. My question is: does this concentration refer to the ion concentration at the beginning, or the end, of the boil?

For instance, if I create a boil solution with six fixed ppm concentrations, and I lose 1 gallon to evaporation, then the ion concentrations actually *increase*, since the H2O boils off, but the ions remain in solution. The same number of ions in a reduced volume means increase ion concentrations. This means the original ppm concentration values have increased.

So, is the (ion) profile stated for the pre-boil solution, or the post-boil? Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

Strike and sparge liquor recipes are definitely pre-boil

And welcome to the forums at Homebrew Talk

Cheers!

 

[Bramling Cross]

Water profiles conveniently list the the "big six" ions (Ca2+, Mg2+, Na+, Cl-, SO42-, HCO3-), in parts-per-million concentrations. My question is: does this concentration refer to the ion concentration at the beginning, or the end, of the boil?

For instance, if I create a boil solution with six fixed ppm concentrations, and I lose 1 gallon to evaporation, then the ion concentrations actually *increase*, since the H2O boils off, but the ions remain in solution. The same number of ions in a reduced volume means increase ion concentrations. This means the original ppm concentration values have increased.

So, is the (ion) profile stated for the pre-boil solution, or the post-boil? Thanks!

Northern Nevada! Welcome aboard! My family is from Lovelock and Winnemucca, although we've (as is so often the case in Nevada) wandered away from that gorgeous part of the country.

Back OT: Water profiles are always written as a starting condition pre-strike. You're correct in assuming that your mineral profile is concentrated during the brewing process, but you will experience some losses in the mash tun. I have a strong preference for gypsum over calcium chloride, so I'll typically reinforce my gypsum pre-boil with an extra gram of gypsum for a 6-gal batch. It's not one of those things that'll make or break a batch of beer, but it's something that I've learned that helps make the beer a bit better. Don't lose sleep over it, it's subtle.

 

[AlexKay]

In most cases, you don’t need to overthink it.

If you were to overthink it, then you should have a target calcium concentration (what that should be, exactly, depends on who you ask) for its effects on mash chemistry, so that is clearly pre-boil.

Sodium, chloride, and sulfate concentrations are there for their effect on the flavor of the finished beer, so post-boil concentration is logically what would matter.

Carbonate is there to adjust mash pH, so that’s pre-boil, too.

I’m of the opinion that magnesium isn’t worth messing with at all, but again you’d be concerned about taste and gastrointestinal problems, so post-boil.

But here’s why this is overthinking: there aren’t exact magic levels of each ion that you need to hit. Consistency and reproducibility is much more important, and you get that just as well from a pre-boil concentration.

Now — and I did ask this question on these forums a while back — an exception comes up if you’re using a very long boil to raise gravity and/or create Maillard products; I make barleywines with 3-4 hour boils and 2-3x concentration. In that case you really probably ought to dial back the amounts of taste-active ions to account for this.

 

[EscapeArtistBrewing]

Thanks, DT. And Bramling Cross and Alex, nice to meet you. We're a recent transplant from No. Colorado (Frederick) to Carson City (close to kids and grandkids). I'm nearing retirement, so more time to step up the details of the hobby. I'm really learning to watch my water usage!!

With my "eye-on" detail ( ), we go down the rabbit hole (the practical motivation for this post)...

I want to do a 3-step infusion (batch sparge) on my first Festbier. Normally, I mash in a 10-gal Igloo, and usually boil in a 10-gal Megapot. I do have a 15-gal pot, so can prepare mash and sparge water in the same container. Beersmith splits the salts into mash and sparge, and calls for a 10-gal total. But it seems to me if I use a single HLT for all the water, add all the salts (in the specified ppm profile), and do the step mash by heating the HLT in steps, I can pull off the Hochkurz. My reasoning is, By making the water concentrations equal for all additions, I don't have to worry about not using all the sparge water in case the "extra" would increase the pre-boil volume, and so forth. Ales seem easy..lagers....

But I totally agree with you about overthinking Alex. However, with more time available in the near future, I intend to think about things a lot more. Palmer and Kaminski is on the nightstand, waiting to be dug into. As a late-60's freshman brewer, I hope I don't get stuck in analysis paralysis!

Thank you all for taking the time to discuss, and cheers...
Chuck

 

[Peebee]

Water profiles conveniently list the the "big six" ions (Ca2+, Mg2+, Na+, Cl-, SO42-, HCO3-), in parts-per-million concentrations. ...

Not big six. "Big Five"! Well, seven if you include Potassium and Nitrate, the only two others you may get in appreciable amounts in potable water (not part-per-billion or fractions of a part-per-million). There may be another ... Phosphate ... but it can be ignored as it falls-in with HCO3-. And I'm ignoring HCO3- 'cos it's covering for "alkalinity" (an "equivalence", although in our case ... potable water ... it mostly is HCO3-).

Sorry @EscapeArtistBrewing, I always grouse about this if I see an opportunity. "Alkalinity" is HCO3- to us, and "Total Alkalinity" can be easily calculated from the other five (plus two). If its calculated, it's always in balance (unless the numbers are wrong, but then you don't know which numbers are wrong!). So, why don't we calculate it?

Doesn't hold if very acid (<pH4.5 ... never is) or very Alkaline water (>pH8.5, a very few are, but they know it, and deal with it ... blimey, they can actually have a scrap of carbonate in their water!).


Perhaps someone will say why we ignore calculating "Alkalinity" (as HCO3-)? Other interested parties don't. Meanwhile, calculating Alkalinity (as HCO3-) makes your life a whole lot easier. Alkalinity - Wikipedia

 

[EscapeArtistBrewing]

Not big six. "Big Five"! Well, seven if you include Potassium and Nitrate, the only two others you may get in appreciable amounts in potable water (not part-per-billion or fractions of a part-per-million). There may be another ... Phosphate ... but it can be ignored as it falls-in with HCO3-. And I'm ignoring HCO3- 'cos it's covering for "alkalinity" (an "equivalence", although in our case ... potable water ... it mostly is HCO3-).

Sorry @EscapeArtistBrewing, I always grouse about this if I see an opportunity. "Alkalinity" is HCO3- to us, and "Total Alkalinity" can be easily calculated from the other five (plus two). If its calculated, it's always in balance (unless the numbers are wrong, but then you don't know which numbers are wrong!). So, why don't we calculate it?

Doesn't hold if very acid (<pH4.5 ... never is) or very Alkaline water (>pH8.5, a very few are, but they know it, and deal with it ... blimey, they can actually have a scrap of carbonate in their water!).


Perhaps someone will say why we ignore calculating "Alkalinity" (as HCO3-)? Other interested parties don't. Meanwhile, calculating Alkalinity (as HCO3-) makes your life a whole lot easier. Alkalinity - Wikipedia

No sorrys needed, Peebee! Good clarifications.