Water Chemistry Questions

[BIGRUGBY]

Recently got my water tested, results are below.

Had a couple thoughts after the fact that I really should have thought of before sending my water sample in.

1. Does the Bru'n water spreadsheet account for using 10 gallons of water to make 5 gallons of beer? For ex. if my sodium level is 194 ppm, and I turn 10 gallons of water into 5 gallons, is my sodium level now more concentrated (simplifying the question as its not exactly 10 to 5, as there is water absorption by the malt, etc)? Am I overthinking that?
2. Is there any sort of a standard for how much sodium water softeners add? Instead of cutting my tap water down with RO or distilled, I could add a splitter before my water softener to get less salty water.
3. I didn't take a sample of water that had been Camden-tabletized.... anyone have math as to how that changes water chemistry?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

You should have submitted pre-softener water for analysis. Of all waters, softened is generally one of the worst to attempt to brew with. But pre-softened water would not change your waters extremely high alkalinity. You would be best served to consider the use of mineral modified RO water instead of your homes water.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Water softeners also do not typically alter a waters TDS.

A ballpark wild guess would place your pre-softened water in the vicinity of 110 ppm Ca++ and 25 ppm Mg++.

 

[catalanotte]

Water worksheets do not need to be further adjusted for water losses. You enter the volume of mash/sparge water and let it do the rest.

To the best of my knowledge, Campden tabs have no effect on mineral balance of water.

I’d avoid using softened water, instead either buy RO or spring water or you can precipitate out the carbonate causing the high alkalinity in your hard water. You can cause it drop out by either pre boiling, but this wastes a lot of energy, or lime softening with pickling lime. Either of these requires a surplus of calcium, so you would need to start with your un-softened water, add a little gypsum and/or CaCl, and let settle overnight. I have done this for years with hard, high alkalinity water because I don’t have access to home RO water, and won’t pay for it. Works great for lower SRM beers <20. For stouts and porters, go to town with that hard water as is.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Campden tablets raise the SO4-- ion concentration a bit. The OP should be aware that his actual SO4 is 117 ppm (mg/L).

 

[The_Bishop]

Don't use water softener sourced water to brew with. Far too much sodium.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here is a water report I received for some source water I'd like to use. Not sure if this info can be cooked out of this chart, but can one of you chemists out there review and let me know if these can be determined from this, and what the values would be:
Ca2+
Mg2+
Na+
Cl-
SO42-
HCO3-

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Guessing Ca++ = ~17.68 mg/L (and not higher than ~24.6 or lower than 0) [note: if Ca++ is ~24.6, then Mg++ must be zero]
Guessing Mg++ = ~4.17 mg/L (and not higher than ~14.9 or lower than 0) [note: if Mg++ is ~14.9, then Ca++ must be zero]
Guessing Alkalinity as CaCO3 = ~71 mg/L
Guessing HCO3- = ~86.6 mg/L

The rest are on the report.
Na+ = 6.11
Cl- = 2.3
SO4-- = ~0.19

Total Hardness = 61.4 = 2.5(Ca++) + 4.12(Mg++)

I assumed ~28% of total hardness from Mg++, and 72% of total hardness from Ca++, which seems fairly average for fresh water overall (but by no means is meant to be firmly representative of any single "real world" water source).

2.5(17.68) + 4.12(4.17) = 61.38 (decently close to 61.4, with difference due only to rounding)

(2.5 x 17.68)/61.4 x 100 = 72% of total hardness from Ca++
(4.12 x 4.17)/61.4 x 100 = 28% of total hardness from Mg++

If it was all I had to go by, I would run with these guesses. You will need to add some Calcium Chloride and Gypsum whereby to boost calcium, chloride, and sulfate ions. And (recipe dependent) you will need to add some small amount of Lactic or Phosphoric Acid to lower the Alkalinity.

 

[Beermeister32]

Great, thank you!

 

[Beermeister32]

Assuming distilled sparge water, I I'm seeing a common 5ml lactic acid 88% solution per gallon. About how many drops per gallon is this?

 

[VikeMan]

Assuming distilled sparge water, I I'm seeing a common 5ml lactic acid 88% solution per gallon. About how many drops per gallon is this?

A rule of thumb is 20 drops per ml. But since you mentioned sparge water, it's not normally necessary to acidify distilled sparge water. It has no buffering capacity, so the amount of acid needed to acidify it to match mash pH is miniscule, and basically irrelevant. The distilled sparge water (even untreated) won't cause the runoff pH to get significantly higher.

I am curious about "5ml lactic acid 88% solution per gallon." What's the context you're seeing that in?

 

[Beermeister32]

Couple references online mentioned that 5ml/gal number. Also mentioned sparge water being 5.4 to 5.7PH optimally, which is lower than say 7.4 or so distilled. So I was looking for a quick and dirty method of acidifying distilled to take it from 7.4 to say 5.4PH. Drops per gallon.

 

[VikeMan]

Couple references online mentioned that 5ml/gal number. Also mentioned sparge water being 5.4 to 5.7PH optimally, which is lower than say 7.4 or so distilled. So I was looking for a quick and dirty method of acidifying distilled to take it from 7.4 to say 5.4PH. Drops per gallon.

If you want to treat distilled water (with a theoretical pH of 7.0) to hit 5.7 pH, it will take about 0.006 ml of (88%) lactic acid to treat 10 gallons, so, 0.012 drops (not ml) per gallon. (But again, it's not necessary.)

 

[Beermeister32]

Great info, thank you

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

2.5 mL of 88% Lactic Acid will remove the alkalinity from 5 gallons of your tap water. At that juncture you can sparge with it.

 

[Beermeister32]

My tap water here in SoCal is terrible. Has an organic smell to it from the reservoir they are pulling it from, really gross. Not exactly what I envision for my Bavarian Pilsner.

Anyway, so I'm buying distilled water and building it up to Munich profile.

Sparge I'm not going crazy on, but am using distilled with lactic acid drops to adjust the pH to around 5.4. Originally I was figuring around three drops per 1 gallon jug. I've heard several estimates on this, just trying to figure a quick and easy guide to acidifying distilled jug water, 0 drops, 1 drop, 3 drops, 20 drops or whatever.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

As has already been stated, there is no way to measure out whereby to add so little acid as is required to move quality deionized water to pH 5.4 without falling below pH 5.4, and the entire process of attempting to do so is unnecessary.

If you are capable of acidifying distilled water without falling below pH 5.4, your distilled water source is not likely of very good quality. At around 8-10 ppm alkalinity the addition of 88% lactic acid required would need to be held to no more than 1/4 mL into 5 gallons.

More importantly, I've come across 2 peer reviewed major brewing industry documents dating to the 1950's - 60's which indicate that you can sparge successfully with up to 50 ppm alkalinity or less water without intervention (meaning without acidifying it) and with little to no fear of the dreaded release of tannins, so perhaps our modern era's preoccupation with worrying about such things as hitting 5.4 pH with sparge water has become at some juncture massively overblown, and from that juncture on perpetuated merely via circular reasoning, or the blind leading the blind, or as one forum member not long ago called it, circle jerking, whereby rumor becomes fact through propagational repetition from one homebrewing writer to another with zero verification or peer review. One of the two old brewing industry documents referencing 50 ppm alkalinity even indicated that the waters pH can measure 9 and it won't matter as long as alkalinity is at or below 50 ppm. But this same document in another location also stated that keeping alkalinity at or below 25 ppm for sparge water is considered a good practice. Water with up to a ballpark TDS of 60 would likely be at 50 ppm or less as to its alkalinity. The several brands of distilled I've measured for TDS have came in at typically ballpark 8 - 15 ppm (and even higher than 20 ppm for one gallon) TDS, and I've measured really good RO at between 2 and 6 ppm TDS. Therefore, in my experience good quality RO is quite often more pure than store bought distilled. But much of RO water is questionable as to its quality....

Here's a secret: Water at 5.4 pH does not at all mean water with zero ppm's of alkalinity. The zero point for alkalinity is variable to a small degree, but hovers quite near pH 4.3. pH dependent, water with ballpark 250 ppm alkalinity when acidified to pH 5.4 will have ballpark 25 ppm remaining alkalinity. And also pH dependent, water at ballpark 470 ppm alkalinity will still have ballpark 50 ppm alkalinity remaining when acidified to pH 5.4.

 

[VikeMan]

One of the two old brewing industry documents referencing 50 ppm alkalinity even indicated that the waters pH can measure 9 and it won't matter as long as alkalinity is at or below 50 ppm.

It seems to me a claim like that must include some kind of assumption (even if not stated) about the buffering capacity of the wort and the "length" of the sparge, i.e. how dilute the final runnings get.

 

[Beermeister32]

Great info, thank you all!

 

[mabrungard]

Here is a water report I received for some source water I'd like to use. Not sure if this info can be cooked out of this chart, but can one of you chemists out there review and let me know if these can be determined from this, and what the values would be:
Ca2+
Mg2+
Na+
Cl-
SO42-
HCO3-

View attachment 696546

That's probably a decent brewing water excepting for the manganese. It's getting to the level where you might pick up a metallic flavor in the water and that can echo into the beer. Using a Greensand filter to reduce the manganese should help. There are whole-house filters like that and they are typically regenerated with a potassium permanganate solution.

The rest of the ionic content is likely to be within acceptable range. You can't assume that the magnesium content will be a certain percentage of the hardness, but it's not likely that it will be too high. You can either call the water company and speak to the water quality lab person or you can send a sample off to a reputable water lab to determine the ionic content needed for brewing.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It seems to me a claim like that must include some kind of assumption (even if not stated) about the buffering capacity of the wort and the "length" of the sparge, i.e. how dilute the final runnings get.

The information is seen on page 327 and 328 of this document.

https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1963.tb01933.x

 

[VikeMan]

The information is seen on page 327 and 328 of this document.

https://www.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1963.tb01933.x

Hmm. I'm curious as to what they mean by "Practical tests demonstrate..." Other than that, it sounds like they are ballparking it. 100ppm. 50ppm. Nice round numbers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hmm. I'm curious as to what they mean by "Practical tests demonstrate..." Other than that, it sounds like they are ballparking it. 100ppm. 50ppm. Nice round numbers.

Well, Bamforth effectively made it clear that even within the major brewing industry much of what passes as peer reviewed science is merely unsubstantiated rumor which gets passed along from one peer reviewed author to another with no effort to verify or substantiate, such that the (pseudo) verification comes merely from repetition. Simply repeat something long enough and it has a way of becoming scientific truth through the power of circular reasoning.

There have been surprisingly few (if any) detailed studies of the precise impact of pH on mashing performance and wort composition. Textbooks of brewing make reference to "optimum" pH's for parameters such as extract and "wort filtration", though they are conspicuous by the lack of references. One textbook refers to a previous textbook! It seems that a largely empirical approach has been employed. How the data has been generated and on what scale (lab mashes are not always good mimics of commercial mashes) is unclear. Furthermore, the manner by which the pH has been adjusted in such studies is seldom apparent, despite its tremendous importance.

Charles W. Bamforth

 

[VikeMan]

Well, Bamforth effectively made it clear that even within the major brewing industry much of what passes as peer reviewed science is merely unsubstantiated rumor which gets passed along from one peer reviewed author to another with no effort to verify or substantiate, such that the verification comes from repetition. Simply repeat something long enough and it has a way of becoming scientific truth.

No doubt. And having read a lot of Bamforth, I'll add that he himself is not always immune from this.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

No doubt. And having read a lot of Bamforth, I'll add that he himself is not always immune from this.

True!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Much of what Bamforth was referring to in his last sentence (within the words of his which I quoted above) was the confusion surrounding peer reviewed studies as to whether the pH was measured at mash temperature or at room temperature. It is rarely if ever explicitly stated in the old peer reviewed brewing industry level journals as to which, and must be carefully teased out of the study.

Amazingly enough, Bamforth, a former President of the Institute of Brewing and Distilling who was also an Anheuser-Busch Endowed Professor of Malting and Brewing Sciences at University of California, Davis between 1999 and 2018 is honest enough to admit confusion, but all it took for amateur homebrewers to definitively shed such confusion and accept as gospel fact that all of such measurement has throughout history been derived at room temperature was for AJ deLange to proclaim that it was definitively so through his own intuition.

 

[mabrungard]

AJ had very good basis for STATING that pH measurement was historically performed at room-temperature because prior to a couple of decades ago, all pH measuring equipment was bulky, expensive, and not suited to placing into a hot tun or kettle. I'd welcome information that showed that his statement was wrong.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

AJ had very good basis for STATING that pH measurement was historically performed at room-temperature because prior to a couple of decades ago, all pH measuring equipment was bulky, expensive, and not suited to placing into a hot tun or kettle. I'd welcome information that showed that his statement was wrong.

There is an entire lengthy thread discussing this. Yet more evidence that commercial brewers do not mash at 5.2 to 5.6 pH ...

 

[Ambaal]

Apologies if I am posting in an incorrect place. I am attempting to use tap water for brewing for the first time. I am attempting to make a Berliner weisse, current water report information shown in the picture below.

As I dont have any RO or distilled water available to me at the moment, I decided to pre boil the water to reduce hardness. I did not add any extra chalk, and boiled for 15 min.

Now I am having a hard time figuring out how much calcium or Biocarbonate I reduced with the the boil. Tools I have available to me are a PH and a TDS meter.

Id appreciate if anyone could help me to get some sort of estimation. Also welcome are tips on what additions should be made to the water according to the Berliner weisse style. Or if I am posting in the wrong place please point me to the correct thread. Big thanks!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If the above represents your starting water, your post boiling water will have ballpark 37.6 ppm calcium, 65 ppm alkalinity, and 79.3 ppm bicarbonate. I believe you will need to maintain the boil for about 15 minutes. During that time you may loose on the order of 0.2 to 0.25 gallons to evaporation.