Water Chemistry in small batch BIAB

[Norselord]

I want to test how different water profiles effect beers by doing two 1-gallon BIAB batches with the following recipe:

9.6 quarts of water (Atlanta profile from beer smith - very very very soft)
2lbs of pale 2-row (152F mash for 60minutes, 168F for 10minutes)
4oz caraamber
1oz corn sugar
1/8 oz galaxy @ 60mins
1/8 oz galaxy @ 5mins
1/4 oz galaxy @ flame out
Ferment at 67F with Pacific Ale (White Labs #WLP041)

The difference between the two batches will be the water chemistry

1st batch: 2.6g gypsum, 1.5g table salt, 0.3g calcium chloride, 0.8g chalk

2nd batch: 1.0g gypsum, 1.2g salt, 0.9g calcium chloride, 0.9g chalk

The question i have is this:

Since i have 1 gallon of boil-off per hour, and i will start with 2.4gallons and end up with a 1.4gallon post boil volume. The math says that the concentration of ions will be doubled by the time yeast is added.

Should i try to achieve a target profile concentration that is post-boil, pre-boil, or mash? Another way of asking this question, is when do the various ions effect beer? Do they facilitate the enzymatic breakdown and work mostly during the mash? Do they effect the biology of the yeast by providing a certain nutrient balance? Do they directly effect the taste and mouthfeel of the beer?

Palmer is not very clear on how the ions work. For example, the only real notes i get on sulfate is that higher levels produce a cleaner and accentuated hop bitterness, that at levels over 400ppm a beer becomes astringent, and that at levels over 750ppm it can cause diarrhea.

I know that in larger batches the minerals do not get as concentrated (a 1 gallon boil-off in an 11-gallon boil is not going to impact mineral content as much)

Just imagine if you are trying to brew an authentic IPA using an initial water profile matching Burton-on-Trent (725ppm SO4) in your mash volume of 2.4gallons and at the end of the boil you get 1.4gallons will have increased the sulfate content to 1240ppmv...

 

[doug293cz]

You want to hit your pH correctly for the mash. You want to get your flavor ion concentrations correct for the post-boil. What are your predicted pH's for those sets of salt additions?

Brew on

 

[Norselord]

You want to hit your pH correctly for the mash. You want to get your flavor ion concentrations correct for the post-boil. What are your predicted pH's for those sets of salt additions?

Brew on

So what you are saying is that i need to aim for all the ions to be at the desired level post-boil. In other words the ion concentration has no significant impact on the mash.

I can get to my pH with lactic acid.

The simplest thing would be to measure the post-boil volume into my kettle, add minerals to get to my desired profile, and then top-off with an amount of distilled water equal to my expected biol-off...

 

[doug293cz]

So what you are saying is that i need to aim for all the ions to be at the desired level post-boil. In other words the ion concentration has no significant impact on the mash.

I can get to my pH with lactic acid.

The simplest thing would be to measure the post-boil volume into my kettle, add minerals to get to my desired profile, and then top-off with an amount of distilled water equal to my expected biol-off...

Pretty much. I am curious about the chalk you are adding, as that will just require that you add more acid to counteract the carbonate in the chalk.

Brew on

 

[Norselord]

I'll need to add some acid already, since i am doing a full volume mash with pale 2-row.
However, there are other sources of calcium added in the CaCl and gypsum - these have an acidifying effect on the water that offsets some of the carbonate. I am only shooting for an equaivalent CaCO3 bi-carbonate concentration of 50ppm, which should be fine for a pale ale.

I am trying to jam some calcium in there to get a really clear beer - since calcium is supposed to assist in the settling of yeasts and proteins - again with the goal of making a clear pale ale.

The main point of this experiment is to try to experience the difference in sulfates ability to produce drier and more bitter beers.

 

[doug293cz]

My understanding is that there is no reason to target any bi-carbonate level, as in a proper pH mash, there will be no residual bi-carbonate. In a pale beer grist that needs added acid, adding CaCO3 or NaHCO3, will just force you to add more acid.

I'm also not sure that "more is better" applies to the yeast flocculation enhancement provided by calcium. If you want clear beer, cold crash, add gelatin, and keep it cold and undisturbed.

Brew on

 

[Norselord]

My understanding is that there is no reason to target any bi-carbonate level, as in a proper pH mash, there will be no residual bi-carbonate. In a pale beer grist that needs added acid, adding CaCO3 or NaHCO3, will just force you to add more acid.

I'm also not sure that "more is better" applies to the yeast flocculation enhancement provided by calcium. If you want clear beer, cold crash, add gelatin, and keep it cold and undisturbed.

Brew on

I'll keep that in mind, right now the objectives of this test is twofold:
- get used to doing 1-gallon BIAB batches
- see what the difference in taste is between water that is 60ish ppmv SO4 and 170ish ppmv SO4.

I made up a pair of profiles in beer smith, and had it calculate the additions. In order to get to the higher SO4, CaSO4 is added. I wanted to keep the other ions as close to each other as possible so that i am only really changing one ion.

I'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[hafmpty]

Should i try to achieve a target profile concentration that is post-boil, pre-boil, or mash?

Here's a post I asked a similar question. I got Martin Brungard to chime in. Check it out.

Small Batch Boil-Off & Its Affect on Ion Concentration https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=563212

I will tell you that in my own experiments I've been WAY more satisfied with the beers brewed with distilled water vs city water. At these small volumes that extra bit of mineral concentration has thrown my beers off a bit. YMMV but it makes adjusting for too much boil off a lot easier and your water calculations are easier.

For my beers I add 85% phosphoric into the mash to adjust for pH and then minerals targeting a FINISHED water profile are added to the boil.

If you do decide to use your city water be sure to enter the concentrated values in the water profile section of the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and your final volume in the mash water input cell to get a close estimate of your final water profile.

 

[Norselord]

Here's a post I asked a similar question. I got Martin Brungard to chime in. Check it out.

Small Batch Boil-Off & Its Affect on Ion Concentration https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=563212

I will tell you that in my own experiments I've been WAY more satisfied with the beers brewed with distilled water vs city water. At these small volumes that extra bit of mineral concentration has thrown my beers off a bit. YMMV but it makes adjusting for too much boil off a lot easier and your water calculations are easier.

For my beers I add 85% phosphoric into the mash to adjust for pH and then minerals targeting a FINISHED water profile are added to the boil.

If you do decide to use your city water be sure to enter the concentrated values in the water profile section of the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and your final volume in the mash water input cell to get a close estimate of your final water profile.

Thanks for the feed back. My water profile is really nice here:
6ppm Ca
1ppm Mg
3ppm Na
7ppm SO4
1.3ppm Cl
22ppm Bicarb

Even if i start with 2 gallons and boil a gallon off, the ion concentration will be lower than most places.

I brew with distilled water when i do extract, since with extract i get whatever waterprofile the maltster uses. But the more i am discovering about the water chemistry, my water is so soft I only need a campden tablet (they don't even use chloramines here...)

Anyway targeting postboil volumes, i will be doing the batches like this:

1st batch: 1.2g gypsum, 0.7g table salt, 0.1g calcium chloride, 0.4g chalk
Goal batch#1 post boil: 115ppm Ca, 1ppm Mg, 68ppm Na, 165ppm SO4, 120ppm Cl, 74ppm HCO3...Cl:SO4=0.7

2nd batch: 0.5g gypsum, 0.6g salt, 0.4g calcium chloride, 0.4g chalk
Goal batch#1 post boil: 92ppm Ca, 1ppm Mg, 57ppm Na, 71ppm SO4, 132ppm Cl, 74ppm HCO3...Cl:SO4=1.9

There is a lot of non-information and opinions on the web about this, that i want to go ahead and experience it for myself. If I like one water profile better than the other for this particular style of beer (APA), then i will run that profile against no chemical additions and make a decision.

Thanks for your feedback, I expect to do the first batch today, and the second tomorrow (maybe even do back-to-back if this goes quickly)