Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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I am thinking of trying another round of warm ferments. I just cannot seem to get any good results when cold fermenting. I have been trying to find a good lager I like, and all but one was a complete disaster. I have three 1 gal batches going now that were brewed 26 Oct 2024. Fermented @52F for 10 days, rest @65F for 7 days. I have tried shorter with no luck. Then cold crashed/lagered from 16 Nov - about a week ago. I tasted two of them, not good. Still have a funky taste that might be diacetyl. The one I did that was good (decent) sat out at room temp 4 months after a 30 day cold crash. I am not quite that far along with these, but seriously I didn't think 99% of everything I tried was going to be this awful.

I am using 34/70 and really about to dump it. I have S189 and S23 in hand to try.

Here is an example of one of the three. Only difference is the grain bill, but all ratios were 90/10.

Brewfather recipe
 
Rather than chucking, you could throw some Brett in and keep it in secondary for a few months. That'll solve your diac problem, plus bretted pils are awesome.
 
With 10 days at 65F, diacetyl should not be a problem.

Are you adding enough yeast? 1 gallon at that gravity and 52F would need ~1/2 a pack.

Other possible culprits:
- O2 sucked in during crash
- infection (you said funk)
- light exposure? (you said funk)

Re light, a pale beer can skunk extremely fast in direct sunlight, and indirect sunlight will easily get it in 10 days.
 
I am thinking of trying another round of warm ferments. I just cannot seem to get any good results when cold fermenting. I have been trying to find a good lager I like, and all but one was a complete disaster. I have three 1 gal batches going now that were brewed 26 Oct 2024. Fermented @52F for 10 days, rest @65F for 7 days. I have tried shorter with no luck. Then cold crashed/lagered from 16 Nov - about a week ago. I tasted two of them, not good. Still have a funky taste that might be diacetyl. The one I did that was good (decent) sat out at room temp 4 months after a 30 day cold crash. I am not quite that far along with these, but seriously I didn't think 99% of everything I tried was going to be this awful.

I am using 34/70 and really about to dump it. I have S189 and S23 in hand to try.

Here is an example of one of the three. Only difference is the grain bill, but all ratios were 90/10.

Brewfather recipe
I've had some issues cold fermenting lagers. What I've learned is pitch rate absolutely matters! So what I do is ferment in the upper 50s F the initial pitch. I'll brew something low 1.040s og since this is mainly a yeast propagation batch. Once that's done the beer gets packaged. The next lager gets racked directly on to the yeast cake and gets cold fermented. That's really made a difference here at least
 
I am thinking of trying another round of warm ferments. I just cannot seem to get any good results when cold fermenting. I have been trying to find a good lager I like, and all but one was a complete disaster. I have three 1 gal batches going now that were brewed 26 Oct 2024. Fermented @52F for 10 days, rest @65F for 7 days. I have tried shorter with no luck. Then cold crashed/lagered from 16 Nov - about a week ago. I tasted two of them, not good. Still have a funky taste that might be diacetyl. The one I did that was good (decent) sat out at room temp 4 months after a 30 day cold crash. I am not quite that far along with these, but seriously I didn't think 99% of everything I tried was going to be this awful.

I am using 34/70 and really about to dump it. I have S189 and S23 in hand to try.

Here is an example of one of the three. Only difference is the grain bill, but all ratios were 90/10.

Brewfather recipe
Ive never liked 34/70. I much prefer S189 and S23. S23 gets bad press, but its a great lager yeast. I dont experience fruity flavours, just nice mild esters. I ferment at 15c.

S189 is clean as a whistle, and also great at 15c, though many people claim its very clean up to 18c
 
Appreciate all the replies. I'm planning on doing a 3 gal batch and splitting between all three yeasts in my LBMB's. Probably just a Pilsner SMASH to see if can actually get a good starting point with one.
 
With 10 days at 65F, diacetyl should not be a problem.

Are you adding enough yeast? 1 gallon at that gravity and 52F would need ~1/2 a pack.

Other possible culprits:
- O2 sucked in during crash
- infection (you said funk)
- light exposure? (you said funk)

Re light, a pale beer can skunk extremely fast in direct sunlight, and indirect sunlight will easily get it in 10 days.
I add 4.6g yeast for the 1.15g in the FV. Goes straight to the refrigerator so light isn't an issue. I use 4.6g based off two normal sachets in a 5gal batch. At 11.5 per = 23g = 23/5 = 4.6. They all finish right at or within a point or two of expected FG so I have always assumed this "math" was good.

O2 might be a problem. I use the plastic LBMB and I can't guarantee a perfect seal, but every time? I have never had an issue with any ale.

Rather than chucking, you could throw some Brett in and keep it in secondary for a few months. That'll solve your diac problem, plus bretted pils are awesome.
Never heard of this. Google inbound...

Side bar...HM-2 as in a Navy HM2?
 
S-23 has given me distinct plum notes every time I try it. I imagine not everyone can taste whatever it is. edit: or taste it differently. It took me ages to find out what I taste as strange grapey flavor many experience as corn chips flavor.

W-34/70 and S-189 are extremely similar final products in my experience, but W-34/70 is better behaved. Faster fermentation, faster clearing, more sturdy flocs, etc. I've never done a split batch, though.

But I pitch at ~46F and ferment 48-50F for the first couple days at least, so my opinion isn't worth much in the warm ferment thread.
 
I finally got my hands on a package of Saflager E-30 and i tried it out. Same setup and process as in previous tests. Fermentation completed in six days, finished at 3'P. The yeast clears out at average speed but its powdery and doesn't wholly stick in to the bottles, equal to W34/70.
I just brewed a Helles with E-30 and the Attenuation is shocking! Went from 1.046 and after 6 days at 56F, it is down to 1.005 (finish hydrometer). It is still blowing off slowly! I did slowly warm up to 62 day 5 and day 6.
I used Fermentrack temperature control (here on HBT), for precise control.
I never seen a Lager yeast so low on the EG, like a saison yeast will do!
Waiting now to Lager the beer and then a slow cold "crash" to 33F around day 21. The verdict seems to be out that a fast cold crash is not good for head retention on finished beer.
 
But I pitch at ~46F and ferment 48-50F for the first couple days at least, so my opinion isn't worth much in the warm ferment thread.
I'm going over Noonan's New Brewing Lager Beer and this is what he recommends. I wasn't doing that. I also see that my off flavors could be caused by under pitching or low oxygenation. He recommends up to 21g dry yeast if OG is over 1.060. Mine were 1.058 and 1.061 so maybe my 4.6g isn't enough, even though I still hit FG b/w 1.012-1.013.

I'm thinking it's the O2. These are 1g batches and the only way I have tried to get any O2 in was during cooling and I strain into the FV. Some bubbles show up but I am not shaking or doing anything else. Probably doing one more run trying this before I go full blown warm ferment.
 
I haven't had any troubles with W-34/70 as long as I am patient. Lagers are supposed to lager after the fermentation and D rest period. It takes time to clean it up and let the particles sink.

I also found NovaLager to be really nice and a more forgiving lager yeast. Give NovaLager a try - I bet you like and it solves some of your current issues.
 
in case anyone is tallying: 34/70 is my go-to, although this spring i might branch out and try something new - possibly Diamond or NovaLager, tbd.

a few years ago, as part of a split-batch experiment i tried S-23 and it was way too ester-y for me. if i brewed lagers more often i'd consider giving it a second chance, but since lagers are a once-a-year thing for me i'm not going to risk another fruit-bomb (unless i use mandarina bavaria :cool:)
 
I don't get the fruit bomb with S-23 at all. Yes, esters, but to me they're mild and pleasant. I ferment at 15c.
 
in case anyone is tallying: 34/70 is my go-to, although this spring i might branch out and try something new - possibly Diamond or NovaLager, tbd.

a few years ago, as part of a split-batch experiment i tried S-23 and it was way too ester-y for me. if i brewed lagers more often i'd consider giving it a second chance, but since lagers are a once-a-year thing for me i'm not going to risk another fruit-bomb (unless i use mandarina bavaria :cool:)
The fruitiest lager strain I've come across is wlp850/wyeast 2042. It screams Heineken to me. Full of esters. With that said I had very poor results with Novalager. To be fair I only used it once and it was kolsch city. I'm going to circle back to that strain and try pitching heavy to see if that helps. Definitely on the to do list!
 
The fruitiest lager strain I've come across is wlp850/wyeast 2042. It screams Heineken to me. Full of esters. With that said I had very poor results with Novalager. To be fair I only used it once and it was kolsch city. I'm going to circle back to that strain and try pitching heavy to see if that helps. Definitely on the to do list!
What !? i really love that yeast and find it crisp and clean. I do find it has a mild ester, but again, i like it and find it pleasant. Tastebuds aren't all the same i guess! Clearly i like estery yeast strains !

I ferment 2042 very cold though.
 
NovaLager under pressure is my go to strain for warm fermented lagers. I find it a bit of a slow starter but once it's going it rips through stuff pretty rapidly and then drops crystal clear in no time.

It made my best beer last year, a 7.4% imperial rice lager with Tango hops and Yuzu peel. I've also had good success with it in helles bock/maibock. IME it throws a bit less sulphur and cleans up a fair bit quicker than most of the German lager strains I've used.
 
I can’t do the 34/70, I just don’t like it. Works great but that flavor isn’t me. S-23 and S189 are fantastic.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. The two worst lagers I ever brewed were with 34/70. I know it's the most popular lager strain and people love it, but I'm not willing to risk the money (and beer) to give it a third chance. Same recipes I've brewed with 2124 and 2278, so I know it's not a recipe issue. Maybe I got two bad packs of 34/70 from two separate orders, who knows.
 
I'm wanting to branch out too and Diamond and Novalager are two yeasts I want to try on my short list. 34/70 has been on the only lager I've used lately, so I'm ready to try something new.
 
in case anyone is tallying: 34/70 is my go-to, although this spring i might branch out and try something new - possibly Diamond or NovaLager, tbd.

a few years ago, as part of a split-batch experiment i tried S-23 and it was way too ester-y for me. if i brewed lagers more often i'd consider giving it a second chance, but since lagers are a once-a-year thing for me i'm not going to risk another fruit-bomb (unless i use mandarina bavaria :cool:)
If you like 3470 warm, you'll love diamond lager warm. It's basically 3470 with much better flocculation. It is my new favourite.
 
I have brewed once with Diamond, and was underwhelmed, probably because I under pitched. (Should have used two )

NovaLager is my favorite in the warmer fermented lagers. I like it a lot. 34/70 remains my most used lager yeast.
 
I have brewed once with Diamond, and was underwhelmed, probably because I under pitched. (Should have used two )

NovaLager is my favorite in the warmer fermented lagers. I like it a lot. 34/70 remains my most used lager yeast.
I always make a big starter with diamond. One pack lasts me at least three batches this way.
 
I've been having good luck with 34/70 fermented under pressure at about 68, with a rise to 70 after a few days (and an increase in pressure from 15psi to 20psi). I get a good clean tasty beer out of it, on a plain grist of two-row or sometimes a mix of that and pilsner, with a clean bittering hop like Cascade or Crystal, with a bit at 10 for some flavor/aroma. Despite the somewhat bad press, the slurry from a pressure-fermented batch also does well unto the third generation for the most part, with a tsp of fermax added at 15 minutes to end of boil. Just my two cents.
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one. The two worst lagers I ever brewed were with 34/70. I know it's the most popular lager strain and people love it, but I'm not willing to risk the money (and beer) to give it a third chance. Same recipes I've brewed with 2124 and 2278, so I know it's not a recipe issue. Maybe I got two bad packs of 34/70 from two separate orders, who knows.
I second @mashdar ; what was the offending flavor, or whatever?
 
Well, I got the tennis guys to come over yesterday and help me and the bum shoulder brew a Summer Cervesa batch whose ingredients have been sitting around since before my injury last Fall. I chose to go two packs 34/70, 7days@62F then 7d@68F. Last time I used it was at 60F in an OFest by a user formerly known as bwarbiany, and I had major peach/green grape. We'll see what happens with all the corn in the recipe.
 
I ordered a pack each of Diamond lager and Novalager from Bobby M. Was hoping he had some Mexican lager yeast, but seems like nobody has the Baja dry yeast or White Labs wlp-940.

Also ordered a 4" triclamp with ball lock posts, floating dip tube, and a prv with a 1.5" triclamp port for my Flex+. I haven't brewed a 5 gallon batch in a while, so figured this would be a good excuse to dust off the Flex and put it to use.
 
I'm planning on rebrewing a German Bockbier based on the Weyermann Willy Wonka Bock recipe.

https://www.weyermann.de/en-gb/product/weyermann-nr-9-willy-wonka-bock/

Last time I used WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast and it turned out great eventhough beers with 25% caramel malt are not usually my thing.
Unfortunately the WLP833 I had stored in the fridge got infected so this time I'm going to use Diamond lager which (I think) should attenuate a little better.
It won't be a true warm fermented lager as I plan on pitching it at around 12oC and leave it for about 5 days before turning off the fridge and let it warm slowly to the ambient temperaure of about 18oC in my basement to finish it off and package it on day 13 or 14.

Brew day will probably be late Jan or early Feb so I'll report back in a few months

Recipe is below

View attachment 866377
I brewed this yesterday but got some out of date dry yeasts on the internet last week with a big discount.
So I used an old pack of M76 instead of the Diamond, which should be similar or even the same yeast.
Instead of the fast lager method I'm going to go for a full warm ferment.

I pitched it at 19oC in my 17oC basement and I'm just going to let her do her stuff without any additional temperature control.
I made a 500ml starter with 1/3 of a pack and the airlock started bubbling within 12 hours.
 
Same. I'd like to know as I use 34/70 as my primary lager yeast. Don't leave us hanging @crazyjake19 !
Sorry guys! It's been a busy week with snow the last three days.

I brewed a Czech pale lager and a Märzen with different packs of 34/70 and brought both to our homebrew meeting last year. A couple guys and the guy who runs the brewery where we meet both detected what they could only describe as DMS, even though I always use a 90-minute boil for pretty much all of my lagers. They're both recipes that I've brewed a few times in the past with 2278 (Czech) and 2124 (both beers) - all other aspects of the recipes were the same (grain bill, hops, mash, boil, chilling, fermentation temps, etc).

I always avoid ordering liquid yeast in the summer which I why I bought some packs of 34/70 instead.

There's certainly a chance that I got some bad packs of 34/70, given how many people love brewing with that yeast. But I'm not willing to risk $30-40 on another ruined batch or two. It's also not the correct yeast for Czech lagers anyway since it attenuates much higher than 2278 or even 2124, but that's besides the point here.
 
Sorry guys! It's been a busy week with snow the last three days.

I brewed a Czech pale lager and a Märzen with different packs of 34/70 and brought both to our homebrew meeting last year. A couple guys and the guy who runs the brewery where we meet both detected what they could only describe as DMS, even though I always use a 90-minute boil for pretty much all of my lagers. They're both recipes that I've brewed a few times in the past with 2278 (Czech) and 2124 (both beers) - all other aspects of the recipes were the same (grain bill, hops, mash, boil, chilling, fermentation temps, etc).

I always avoid ordering liquid yeast in the summer which I why I bought some packs of 34/70 instead.

There's certainly a chance that I got some bad packs of 34/70, given how many people love brewing with that yeast. But I'm not willing to risk $30-40 on another ruined batch or two. It's also not the correct yeast for Czech lagers anyway since it attenuates much higher than 2278 or even 2124, but that's besides the point here.
I never enjoy 34/70. I just don't enjoy the flavour. Nothing wrong with the yeast, i just much prefer others.
 
Sorry guys! It's been a busy week with snow the last three days.

I brewed a Czech pale lager and a Märzen with different packs of 34/70 and brought both to our homebrew meeting last year. A couple guys and the guy who runs the brewery where we meet both detected what they could only describe as DMS, even though I always use a 90-minute boil for pretty much all of my lagers. They're both recipes that I've brewed a few times in the past with 2278 (Czech) and 2124 (both beers) - all other aspects of the recipes were the same (grain bill, hops, mash, boil, chilling, fermentation temps, etc).

I always avoid ordering liquid yeast in the summer which I why I bought some packs of 34/70 instead.

There's certainly a chance that I got some bad packs of 34/70, given how many people love brewing with that yeast. But I'm not willing to risk $30-40 on another ruined batch or two. It's also not the correct yeast for Czech lagers anyway since it attenuates much higher than 2278 or even 2124, but that's besides the point here.
How did you like it yourself? It seems to be the case with a lot of people, that if they don't find an obvious flaw, they "find" something like a little bit of DMS or a little bit of diacetyl. Doesn't mean that it actually was there. But I don't know your guys over there, maybe they are not that type and they give solid feedback.


Anyway, DMS has nothing to do with the yeast, so nothing wrong with 34/70. Also bad packs wouldn't be able to create DMS in your beer. As a side note, I've had many problems in my beers in the past but I have never had a DMS problem. Not even in a pilsner malt only smash that was boiled for only 30 minutes.
 
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How did you like it yourself? It seems to be the case with a lot of people, that if they don't find an obvious flaw, they "find" something like a little bit of DMS or a little bit of diacetyl. Doesn't mean that it actually was there. But I don't know your guys over there, maybe they are not that type and they give solid feedback.


Anyway, DMS has nothing to do with the yeast, so nothing wrong with 34/70. Also bad packs wouldn't be able to create DMS in your beer. As a side note, I've had many problems in my beers in the past but I have never had a DMS problem. Not even in a pilsner malt only smash that was boiled for only 30 minutes.
I don't know that it actually was DMS. Myself, I detected an unpleasant bitterness bordering on acrid/astringent/slightly vegetal. Didn't really taste like DMS to me but I have almost no sense of smell so I may also not be able to detect it via taste. The others suggested it was similar to DMS but no one could really pinpoint what it was.

The pale lager I drank a few pints and dumped the remaining 4 gallons. The Märzen I took a few sample glasses and dumped the entire batch. I tend to lager 4-8 weeks depending on beer, noting changes/improvements over time. These two batches did not improve at all.

The same malt and hops were also used in other beers, so literally the only possible factor was the yeast. I understand that DMS wouldn't be a yeast issue, and I can't imagine it would've ever been DMS anyway since I always do 90-minute boils.

To this day, I have no idea what it was. I only know that I'll never use 34/70 again. 2124 and 2278 covers most of my lagers anyway, though I might try WLP833 for this year's Märzen and a Helles.
 
I never enjoy 34/70. I just don't enjoy the flavour. Nothing wrong with the yeast, i just much prefer others.
That was my only experience with it. I'd be willing to try a side by side with 34/70 to other yeasts if someone else made them, I'm just not going to throw away $30-40 to find out myself. I'd be happy using 2124 for all my lagers, though I've also been content with 2278 for my Czech lagers.
 
I don't know that it actually was DMS. Myself, I detected an unpleasant bitterness bordering on acrid/astringent/slightly vegetal. Didn't really taste like DMS to me but I have almost no sense of smell so I may also not be able to detect it via taste. The others suggested it was similar to DMS but no one could really pinpoint what it was.

The pale lager I drank a few pints and dumped the remaining 4 gallons. The Märzen I took a few sample glasses and dumped the entire batch. I tend to lager 4-8 weeks depending on beer, noting changes/improvements over time. These two batches did not improve at all.

The same malt and hops were also used in other beers, so literally the only possible factor was the yeast. I understand that DMS wouldn't be a yeast issue, and I can't imagine it would've ever been DMS anyway since I always do 90-minute boils.

To this day, I have no idea what it was. I only know that I'll never use 34/70 again. 2124 and 2278 covers most of my lagers anyway, though I might try WLP833 for this year's Märzen and a Helles.
I had something similar going on once, in my case it was an infection. Swapped equipment and it was gone. Doesn't sound like a yeast issue to me, 3470 is actually pretty boring normally.

But if you have something that suits you better anyway, I'd probably stay away from 3470 as well.
 
I had something similar going on once, in my case it was an infection. Swapped equipment and it was gone. Doesn't sound like a yeast issue to me, 3470 is actually pretty boring normally.

But if you have something that suits you better anyway, I'd probably stay away from 3470 as well.
That thought did cross my mind, perhaps those two packs of 34/70 were infected or compromised in some way? My cleaning and sanitizing regimen has always been the same and knock on wood for the 10-ish years I've been brewing I've never had an infection, short of possibly these few beers with 34/70.
 

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