Warm Fermented Lager Thread

[Northern_Brewer]

I have some 2021 traditional German hops in the freezer that need to be used up. Perle, Tettnang and Mittelfruh.
I don't want to brew any traditional German beers though, except maybe some kind of redish bock.

Anyway, when researching I stumbled across the Italian Pils style.
I'm thinking of brewing a dry hopped warm fermented version with Diamond Lager. I only have Belgian pilsner malt but I guess that would be OK too.

If you search on Tipopils you'll find some threads about it. But Italian Pils is the last style to be putting shonky hops in, it emphasises fresh hop character.

So even before you mentioned your malt, I was thinking something Belgian - and it's the perfect time of year to be brewing a Christmas beer...

 

[Miraculix]

Just for the record, Diamond Lager is the most stickiest yeast I have witnessed (except for pub...) so far. Once it has settled on the bottom of the bottle, you can just pour your beer. The yeast stays inside. You do not have to leave the last sip. The yeast just sticks to the bottom, you pour clear beer und the yeast remains in the bottle.

It is a dream.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I made a little oopsie and gonna post this here because it seems fitting, I've fermented lagers warm under pressure but that was in my conicals that have full temp control and pressure capability... now onto my mistake... this past weekend I brewed a blonde bier de garde with wlp830, it was at a homebrew club brewoff where we all bring our equipment and brew in the parking lot, there is drinking involved in this event, so Sunday morning I woke up to my fermenter blowing off as expected, sitting on my bar in my living room at 70f... my wife says, "I thought you were gonna put that in the basement" yeah well drunk me didn't do that, maybe I just didn't want to try to carry it down the stairs when I was half in the bag... anyway here I am with a lager beer sitting at 70f, cooler at night but not where it should be, I airlocked it now that fermentation has slowed and it'd in my basement, probably at 60f. So what would you all do moving forward? Leave it at 60f for a week or so, I can put it in my keezer and set to 50 or 55 or whatever temp. It'd in a fermonster with just an airlock so no way to add pressure, figure I can drop it slowly while still fermenting to avoid any suck back from temp drop. Then eventually I'll keg it, add gelatin and lager for a month or so. Suggestions? Any insight appreciated

 

[LokiM4]

I made a little oopsie and gonna post this here because it seems fitting, I've fermented lagers warm under pressure but that was in my conicals that have full temp control and pressure capability... now onto my mistake... this past weekend I brewed a blonde bier de garde with wlp830, it was at a homebrew club brewoff where we all bring our equipment and brew in the parking lot, there is drinking involved in this event, so Sunday morning I woke up to my fermenter blowing off as expected, sitting on my bar in my living room at 70f... my wife says, "I thought you were gonna put that in the basement" yeah well drunk me didn't do that, maybe I just didn't want to try to carry it down the stairs when I was half in the bag... anyway here I am with a lager beer sitting at 70f, cooler at night but not where it should be, I airlocked it now that fermentation has slowed and it'd in my basement, probably at 60f. So what would you all do moving forward? Leave it at 60f for a week or so, I can put it in my keezer and set to 50 or 55 or whatever temp. It'd in a fermonster with just an airlock so no way to add pressure, figure I can drop it slowly while still fermenting to avoid any suck back from temp drop. Then eventually I'll keg it, add gelatin and lager for a month or so. Suggestions? Any insight appreciated

Fit a balloon over the airlock, swap the airlock to fit if needed, fill with CO2 and cold crash-no O2 suck back. IMHO, I’d raise slowly if you’re at the tail end of fermenting, to clean up any off flavors from your 70f ferment for a couple days before you crash.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Ok, it's at 60f now, how much should I raise? I can fit a Ballon, I'll pick up a mylar one after work today.

 

[Willy]

Ok, it's at 60f now, how much should I raise? I can fit a Ballon, I'll pick up a mylar one after work today.

I have a 10 g batch of pilsner (yeast 34/70) at 57° under 11 psi. Currently ... Day 9. On day 10-12, depending on if it appears to have finished most/all of fermentation - I will raise the temp 3-4 degrees a day to get to 63-64°F. Keep it there for 3-5 days, taking samples and tasting. The "D" rest should be finished ... And I begin cold crash over 5-6 days lowering temp to about 35°. Then into 2 corny kegs.

Followed by 4-6 weeks of lagering.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

I have a 10 g batch of pilsner (yeast 34/70) at 57° under 11 psi. Currently ... Day 9. On day 10-12, depending on if it appears to have finished most/all of fermentation - I will raise the temp 3-4 degrees a day to get to 63-64°F. Keep it there for 3-5 days, taking samples and tasting. The "D" rest should be finished ... And I begin cold crash over 5-6 days lowering temp to about 35°. Then into 2 corny kegs.

Followed by 4-6 weeks of lagering.

This is what I have done in the past in my conicals, so I understand that process, in this case I am curious if I should change any part of the rest of my process considering that it was at 70f for 2 days with no pressure..

 

[LokiM4]

This is what I have done in the past in my conicals, so I understand that process, in this case I am curious if I should change any part of the rest of my process considering that it was at 70f for 2 days with no pressure..

I guess since it’s was already at 70 for primary fermentation then pushing up up slowly to 70 again before crashing shouldn’t hurt anything. The late rise and higher temp shouldn’t throw anything off at this point, you’re just motivating the yeast to do a good cleanup. Not make more off flavors at this point.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Makes perfect sense, that's how I'll approach it and see how it goes, thanks for the input.

 

[Willy]

This is what I have done in the past in my conicals, so I understand that process, in this case I am curious if I should change any part of the rest of my process considering that it was at 70f for 2 days with no pressure..

I think ... And hope you should be fine. And I have no idea what "magic" could be done to undo what is already done. Probably best to just finish in the usual way and hope for the best. I have had several batches where I begin with a temp range out of the optimum range for a particular yeast. (But ales, not lagers so I don't know)

 

[hawkeye121]

Can I get a recommendation between S180 and Diamond yeast from those of you that have experience with both? Specifically for brewing German Pilsner and Munich Helles? I will be fermenting in the low to mid 60s F, either with pressure or not. What would you use? Thank you!

 

[LokiM4]

Can I get a recommendation between S180 and Diamond yeast from those of you that have experience with both? Specifically for brewing German Pilsner and Munich Helles? I will be fermenting in the low to mid 60s F, either with pressure or not. What would you use? Thank you!

Do you mean Fermentis S-189? its a great clean lager yeast, though I ran my last batch cooler-52F to start I think. It did great in my Warsteiner pils clone.

 

[Halfakneecap]

How warms warm?

My fermenting fridge is dying, and 15c is as good as it reliably gets. Recently tried S23, first time using it, and worried about the Fruit Bomb issue lots of people have mentioned. Clean as a whistle. So clean i have 10 more packs in the fridge. One of the best lagers ive made, and i make them every summer.

Ive always used lager yeast around 8c pitch temp then brought up to 10, but im really quite happy with S23 @ 15c/60f.

I use S189 at 12c, but not sure this counts as warm. I like S189, but do find it super clean, whereas i like the character S23 gives to the beer.

 

[dmtaylor]

Can I get a recommendation between S180 and Diamond yeast from those of you that have experience with both? Specifically for brewing German Pilsner and Munich Helles? I will be fermenting in the low to mid 60s F, either with pressure or not. What would you use? Thank you!

S-189 is superior to Diamond. But both very good.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I agree as well with S-189. I also love S23 too. I’ve had no issues running both in the low 60’s, or up to 17-18C. I’ve not gone any warmer than that.

 

[rallenhall]

I've run Diamond under 1 bar pressure with room temperatures in the low 70's and have had not problems. Very clean German pils. I've since begun using a swamp cooler to lower the temp a bit ... no particular reason other than peace of mind. Have a couple packets of S-189 and S-23 that I'd like to try, but haven't had the nerve to pull the trigger under the existing conditions.

 

[duelerx]

S-189 is superior to Diamond. But both very good.

Have you tested dry wlp860?

 

[dmtaylor]

Have you tested dry wlp860?

Not yet.

 

[hawkeye121]

Thank you! I'll try S-189.

 

[Wortchester]

I finally got my hands on a package of Saflager E-30 and i tried it out. Same setup and process as in previous tests. Fermentation completed in six days, finished at 3'P. The yeast clears out at average speed but its powdery and doesn't wholly stick in to the bottles, equal to W34/70.
Right at the end of fermentation my tasting notes were: Lots of florals, a pineapple-like floral (like BE-256), green grape thats turned yellow and about to go overripe, and tiny touches of custard. Prevalent sulfur. Crisp mouthfeel.
After a month in bottles i get: Crisp mouthfeel and sulphur equal to W34/70. Florals. Warm sweetness that isn't plain sugar, but more like hint of juice from a golden delicious apple. Plastic bottles developed some apricot as well, glass bottles had from none to just a hint.
In short, its like W34/70, but with some sweet florals.

 

[ncbrewer]

I finally got my hands on a package of Saflager E-30 and i tried it out. Same setup and process as in previous tests. Fermentation completed in six days, finished at 3'P. The yeast clears out at average speed but its powdery and doesn't wholly stick in to the bottles, equal to W34/70.
Right at the end of fermentation my tasting notes were: Lots of florals, a pineapple-like floral (like BE-256), green grape thats turned yellow and about to go overripe, and tiny touches of custard. Prevalent sulfur. Crisp mouthfeel.
After a month in bottles i get: Crisp mouthfeel and sulphur equal to W34/70. Florals. Warm sweetness that isn't plain sugar, but more like hint of juice from a golden delicious apple. Plastic bottles developed some apricot as well, glass bottles had from none to just a hint.
In short, its like W34/70, but with some sweet florals.

How does it compare with S-23 (if you've tried it)?

 

[Halfakneecap]

S23 has what i call mild esters. I think people get turned off by the "fruity", but i dont get fruity at all. Its a great lager yeast. I use it at 15c, no problem.

I find it funny that homebrewers rubbish it a lot, but its used commercially on a large scale.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

S23 has what i call mild esters. I think people get turned off by the "fruity", but i dont get fruity at all. Its a great lager yeast. I use it at 15c, no problem.

I find it funny that homebrewers rubbish it a lot, but its used commercially on a large scale.

Commercial brewing of lager is not the same as homebrewing though, notably in scale which can suppress a lot of [debatably off-]flavours, and often pressure.

Also I suspect a lot of North American homebrewers haven't experienced "proper" Czech lager, and/or their expectations are set by more neutral brews.

 

[Wortchester]

How does it compare with S-23 (if you've tried it)?

S-23 is more malt-driven, and its lagery characteristics are more subdued (when warm fermented).

 

[Halfakneecap]

Commercial brewing of lager is not the same as homebrewing though, notably in scale which can suppress a lot of [debatably off-]flavours, and often pressure.

Also I suspect a lot of North American homebrewers haven't experienced "proper" Czech lager, and/or their expectations are set by more neutral brews.

Youre right. I avoided it for a long time, based on reports on homebrewing forums, until a mate brewed with it and it was fantastic. No fruit bomb, and actually really great lager. No pressure fermentation or large scale brewing. My go to lager yeast now.

 

[beervoid]

Which yeast seems to floc the fastest and hardest so far?

 

[Halfakneecap]

Which yeast seems to floc the fastest and hardest so far?

Both S189 and S23 are both quite clear very quickly.

 

[beervoid]

Both S189 and S23 are both quite clear very quickly.

Thanks, havent tried those but from the rest of dry diamond seems to be the fastest.
Will plan those 2 in

 

[Halfakneecap]

Thanks, havent tried those but from the rest of dry diamond seems to be the fastest.
Will plan those 2 in

I dont like 34/70, but really like both S189 and S23. S189 is super clean, S23 has some mild esters, which i really like, great for euro style lagers to me.

 

[Yesfan]

I dont like 34/70, but really like both S189 and S23. S189 is super clean, S23 has some mild esters, which i really like, great for euro style lagers to me.

What do you not like about 34/70?

 

[Halfakneecap]

What do you not like about 34/70?

Can’t really put my finger on it, I just don’t like it.

 

[Yesfan]

Can’t really put my finger on it, I just don’t like it.

Fair enough. I was just curious. A lot of folks don't like K-97, but there's something about it that I do like. It is a slow floculator, but besides that, the last couple of beers I used it on were positive for me.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Fair enough. I was just curious. A lot of folks don't like K-97, but there's something about it that I do like. It is a slow floculator, but besides that, the last couple of beers I used it on were positive for me.

That seems to be one people either really like, or really dont like. How would you describe it? I use WLP029 as my house yeast. Apparently a kolsch yeast but i find it super clean, and use Wyeast 2565 for kolsch. MIght try K-97. What sort of beers do you brew with it?

 

[Yesfan]

Nothing particular. The two times I used it was just because I didn't want to use US-05 for the umpteenth time. The beers were cloudy and took forever to clear. One was just a hoppy pale ale with cascade. The other was a pilsner. I fermented both around 65F. I definitely wasn't going for a kolsch those times.

I should revisit this yeast and refresh my memory.