Warm Fermented Lager Thread

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Nubiwan

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Just brewing this. What is it? An oktoberfest? A pilsner? German Pilsner? What the Helles? Anyway, Its brewing at 64 degrees.

Grain Bill
11 LBS Pilsner
1.1 LBS Vienna
0.6 LBS Munich

90 minute Mash at varying temps - as is my style. I get very good efficiency, but think I am cheating the maker, and plainly ignoring temp control aficionados.

All Hallertau M hops:
1 oz for 60 mins, 1 oz for 15 mins. 0.5 oz for 5 mins - whatever it'll end up around 28 IBU is what I think I estimated. Don't want it too bitter.
Used Whirfloc last 5 mins of boil

Pitched 2 packs of Safale -23 (at 70 degrees while it was cooling down) and it was going within 12 hours. Optimal temp for S-23 is suggested 53-59, so I am a little north of that. I don't care. S-23 rated 48-72 degrees. It'll cook faster. Faster rhymes with Ester in some states.

Its going to end up around 5-7 L based on samples I took. ABV around 4.8%.

Not sure if I will cold crash or just package and bottle. Let it clear / lager in fridge. I cant wait around for lagering. There is drinking to be done. Sure it'll taste fine.

My last bottle should be reasonably clear in about 8 weeks. When its all gone. LOL
 

Bilsch

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Just brewing this. What is it? An oktoberfest? A pilsner? German Pilsner? What the Helles? Anyway, Its brewing at 64 degrees.
None of the above, it's a steam beer aka California common.
Nothing wrong with that at all since it's awesome style with a proud tradition.
 
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Miraculix

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Just brewing this. What is it? An oktoberfest? A pilsner? German Pilsner? What the Helles? Anyway, Its brewing at 64 degrees.

Grain Bill
11 LBS Pilsner
1.1 LBS Vienna
0.6 LBS Munich

90 minute Mash at varying temps - as is my style. I get very good efficiency, but think I am cheating the maker, and plainly ignoring temp control aficionados.

All Hallertau M hops:
1 oz for 60 mins, 1 oz for 15 mins. 0.5 oz for 5 mins - whatever it'll end up around 28 IBU is what I think I estimated. Don't want it too bitter.
Used Whirfloc last 5 mins of boil

Pitched 2 packs of Safale -23 (at 70 degrees while it was cooling down) and it was going within 12 hours. Optimal temp for S-23 is suggested 53-59, so I am a little north of that. I don't care. S-23 rated 48-72 degrees. It'll cook faster. Faster rhymes with Ester in some states.

Its going to end up around 5-7 L based on samples I took. ABV around 4.8%.

Not sure if I will cold crash or just package and bottle. Let it clear / lager in fridge. I cant wait around for lagering. There is drinking to be done. Sure it'll taste fine.

My last bottle should be reasonably clear in about 8 weeks. When its all gone. LOL
Warm fermented Pilsener it is!
 
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applescrap

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None of the above, it's a steam beer aka California common.
Nothing wrong with that at all since it's awesome style with a proud tradition.
Steam beer, California common, are you kidding me? Look a warm fermented pilsner is not a steam beer it is a pilsner. If you dont believe that, then you are probably on the wrong thread. Note there will be zero debate of this kind here.
 
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applescrap

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I had a Marzen the other day from a good local German brewery and thought meh. The warm fermented Oktoberfests come out good, and quick. Havent been brewing much, and as much as I dont like malty lagers, I love a beer that goes with the season and miss having one on tap this year. Awesome thing with warm fermented lagers, they can be ready in a week.
 

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I brewed another Irish Red the other day, this time using dry pack Omega Kveik Lutra yeast. I fermented it at ambient in my office (which happened to be 27°C for the week) and the fermentation was very, very fast. It finished in less than 48 hours, and I was worried about that speed because of obvious reasons.

I let the beer sit in the fermenter though for the full 2 weeks as I always do, before doing a gravity test and kegging. The beer went from 1.048 down to 1.010 for a perfect 5% ABV beer. I kegged, fined (in the keg) and set the pressure to 30 PSI overnight before dropping to 20PSI and leaving it there for almost a week. I have to mention that during kegging one thing that stood out to me was how clear the beer came from the fermenter. With just time and room temperature, Lutra proved to be a very, very well flocculating yeast (much better than Oslo). Anyway, sample.

The sample was yeasty, which I tossed. I was impressed to see how much yeast still dropped from suspension, and how fast, with the gelatin addition just overnight. The next bit though was crystal clear, and remains as such to this day.

The beer itself is a very middle-lane Irish Red, but in a good way. I had a previous one entered into a competition, which scored 34/50 (not too great), with the biggest notes from the judges being that it's on the light side of the style (15.A: Irish Red Ale), and that's why the score went low. They mentioned a lack of finish and a light mouthfeel. It's what I brewed to achieve so in one hand I was really happy, but on the other I was disappointed with the low score. This time I boosted the roasted barley a bit, doubled up on the rye malt and boosted the light Munich malt quite a bit. I also upped the extra pale malt I use as the backbone to boost the ABV, and in the boil I added slightly more hops, and this time without the hop bag.

The result is now a relatively potent beer with a very strong backbone to fall back on. You can pick up all the flavours I like in an Irish Red, but it's supported with a relatively noticeable spice and roast flavour from the roast barley and rye malt. It's got a long finish that has you thinking about where the spice comes from (everyone guesses the hops, not knowing about the rye malt in there), so I'm hoping it'll do good.

This thread is related to the yeast though, so this is what I want to comment on. So far, my beers have all been green for at least 6 weeks. To me, I start losing a yeast flavour in my beers only after around 6 weeks. I'm not saying they're bad before then, I'm saying there's a distinctive flavour that I can attribute only to yeast in every single one of my beers before that time, and I'm not very fond of that flavour at all. This is why I've been aging my beers, some extensively, for the past 2 years at least. Some beers I've stored for 6 months at freezing (in large HDPE cubes) before kegging/bottling before, because I love the clean flavours it produces.

Lutra, though, is about to throw a spanner in the works there. After 2 weeks in the fermenter and a week in the keg, this IRA is very, VERY clean. Not as clean as time would make it, obviously, but way, WAY cleaner than any other yeast I've ever used in a similar timeframe. For the first time I can actually say with confidence now that I can brew clean beer, to drinking, in a month. I've used a few Kveiks before (including Voss and Oslo) and both severely disappointed me. Both ended up with a slight tart, almost sour note that is a yeast presence (over and above Voss' gross rotten orange flavours). Lutra, though, seems to have hit the nail on the head, and it's officially my new favourite ale yeast. Can't wait to do a pilsner recipe with this yeast. I'll keep you guys updated!
 

Miraculix

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I brewed another Irish Red the other day, this time using dry pack Omega Kveik Lutra yeast. I fermented it at ambient in my office (which happened to be 27°C for the week) and the fermentation was very, very fast. It finished in less than 48 hours, and I was worried about that speed because of obvious reasons.

I let the beer sit in the fermenter though for the full 2 weeks as I always do, before doing a gravity test and kegging. The beer went from 1.048 down to 1.010 for a perfect 5% ABV beer. I kegged, fined (in the keg) and set the pressure to 30 PSI overnight before dropping to 20PSI and leaving it there for almost a week. I have to mention that during kegging one thing that stood out to me was how clear the beer came from the fermenter. With just time and room temperature, Lutra proved to be a very, very well flocculating yeast (much better than Oslo). Anyway, sample.

The sample was yeasty, which I tossed. I was impressed to see how much yeast still dropped from suspension, and how fast, with the gelatin addition just overnight. The next bit though was crystal clear, and remains as such to this day.

The beer itself is a very middle-lane Irish Red, but in a good way. I had a previous one entered into a competition, which scored 34/50 (not too great), with the biggest notes from the judges being that it's on the light side of the style (15.A: Irish Red Ale), and that's why the score went low. They mentioned a lack of finish and a light mouthfeel. It's what I brewed to achieve so in one hand I was really happy, but on the other I was disappointed with the low score. This time I boosted the roasted barley a bit, doubled up on the rye malt and boosted the light Munich malt quite a bit. I also upped the extra pale malt I use as the backbone to boost the ABV, and in the boil I added slightly more hops, and this time without the hop bag.

The result is now a relatively potent beer with a very strong backbone to fall back on. You can pick up all the flavours I like in an Irish Red, but it's supported with a relatively noticeable spice and roast flavour from the roast barley and rye malt. It's got a long finish that has you thinking about where the spice comes from (everyone guesses the hops, not knowing about the rye malt in there), so I'm hoping it'll do good.

This thread is related to the yeast though, so this is what I want to comment on. So far, my beers have all been green for at least 6 weeks. To me, I start losing a yeast flavour in my beers only after around 6 weeks. I'm not saying they're bad before then, I'm saying there's a distinctive flavour that I can attribute only to yeast in every single one of my beers before that time, and I'm not very fond of that flavour at all. This is why I've been aging my beers, some extensively, for the past 2 years at least. Some beers I've stored for 6 months at freezing (in large HDPE cubes) before kegging/bottling before, because I love the clean flavours it produces.

Lutra, though, is about to throw a spanner in the works there. After 2 weeks in the fermenter and a week in the keg, this IRA is very, VERY clean. Not as clean as time would make it, obviously, but way, WAY cleaner than any other yeast I've ever used in a similar timeframe. For the first time I can actually say with confidence now that I can brew clean beer, to drinking, in a month. I've used a few Kveiks before (including Voss and Oslo) and both severely disappointed me. Both ended up with a slight tart, almost sour note that is a yeast presence (over and above Voss' gross rotten orange flavours). Lutra, though, seems to have hit the nail on the head, and it's officially my new favourite ale yeast. Can't wait to do a pilsner recipe with this yeast. I'll keep you guys updated!
Thanks for sharing your experience. It's interesting because I also had your described experience but also quite the opposite, one beer that would never clear and another one that had the kveik twang. It would be good to find the factors that will lead to the one or the other result, so far I have not been successful. I suspect temperature to play a big role in regards to the twang, but I don't know about the clearing aspect. I had mead and beer that never fully cleared and I had clear beer.... Don't know why. Minerals were kind of the same.
 

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Thanks for sharing your experience. It's interesting because I also had your described experience but also quite the opposite, one beer that would never clear and another one that had the kveik twang. It would be good to find the factors that will lead to the one or the other result, so far I have not been successful. I suspect temperature to play a big role in regards to the twang, but I don't know about the clearing aspect. I had mead and beer that never fully cleared and I had clear beer.... Don't know why. Minerals were kind of the same.
Yeah so I've picked up the kveik twang (like that phrase, going to keep it) in beers I've made with it, but it seems like the stronger flavoured beers do well. I've made an IRA with Oslo and while not as clean, it was OK, actually bordering on "good" for me, but still nowhere near Lutra. The Pils I've made with Voss I tossed (couldn't drink it), and the several pale ales and similar beers I made with Oslo were all "meh" to me, in fact so mediocre that I'd make them with S-04 instead.

So this is why I want to test a pilsner or pale ale recipe with malty notes and not overpowering hop presence with the Lutra, to see if it lets the sweeter, softer malt notes shine, or if the twang will just show up again. I have a huge yeast cake saved, so that'll help as well.

By the way, I have underpitched Oslo before. Doesn't matter if it's a kveik, underpitching is a bad idea. I had much better and cleaner results from a proper pitch.
 

Miraculix

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Yeah so I've picked up the kveik twang (like that phrase, going to keep it) in beers I've made with it, but it seems like the stronger flavoured beers do well. I've made an IRA with Oslo and while not as clean, it was OK, actually bordering on "good" for me, but still nowhere near Lutra. The Pils I've made with Voss I tossed (couldn't drink it), and the several pale ales and similar beers I made with Oslo were all "meh" to me, in fact so mediocre that I'd make them with S-04 instead.

So this is why I want to test a pilsner or pale ale recipe with malty notes and not overpowering hop presence with the Lutra, to see if it lets the sweeter, softer malt notes shine, or if the twang will just show up again. I have a huge yeast cake saved, so that'll help as well.

By the way, I have underpitched Oslo before. Doesn't matter if it's a kveik, underpitching is a bad idea. I had much better and cleaner results from a proper pitch.
I agree. My pale lutras were clean, but there was this kveik twang present, although not even half as strong as with for example Voss.

Try keeping the temperature at room temperature and I actually don't know about pitching rate. Probably more is better, but I don't know for sure. I would go with a proper "normal" pitch and room temperature, if I would try it again. No hot start, properly chilled wort.

So basically like you suggested.
 

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My next beer will be made with an overpitch, and then also keeping the temperature constant in my fermentation chamber. I want to see what it's capable of when treated perfectly. To boot, I'm actually planning a side-by-side with a true lager yeast, something like Lallemand Diamond Lager, but we'll have to see once brew day comes. I do make around 46l of wort at a time so volume isn't a problem, I can easily make a split batch and ferment it like I want. Would be nice.
 

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My next beer will be made with an overpitch, and then also keeping the temperature constant in my fermentation chamber. I want to see what it's capable of when treated perfectly. To boot, I'm actually planning a side-by-side with a true lager yeast, something like Lallemand Diamond Lager, but we'll have to see once brew day comes. I do make around 46l of wort at a time so volume isn't a problem, I can easily make a split batch and ferment it like I want. Would be nice.
That would be marvelous.
 
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applescrap

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Yeah the yeast used matters and changes things. And I have found similar results, they still need some lager and rest times to be good. We can speed up the ferment, but it seems there is no getting around a short lager period with these.
 

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I recently saw a post elsewhere claiming that lagers need to be lagered because they are fermented cold. The person said that if you ferment warm with W-34/70, you don't need to lager your beer.

I've fermented in the 60sF/15-20C maybe four or five times, and it's needed lagering every time. I wanted to ask the serial warm-fermenters here about their experiences and opinions. Does warm-fermented lager really not need to be lagered?
 

sweetcell

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Does warm-fermented lager really not need to be lagered?
my take: two things happen during lagering
  1. the beer slowly completes fermentation, clean up leftover byproducts, etc.
  2. clarification
#1 is probably not needed by warm-fermented beers: higher temps = more active yeast = clean-up completed in primary (think of it as a diacetyl rest on steroids). reason #2, however, still applies - unless you use clarifiers like gelatin which also applies to cold-fermented lagers. so i guess this person might be correct in a specific case: you probably don't need to lager a warm-fermented beer if you use gelatin instead to clear it.

we can also get philosophical about the "need" in "you don't need to lager a warm-fermenter beer"... need according to who? is the beer for competition or for enjoying quickly? do you like the taste/aroma/appearance/etc. of unclarified lager? and so on...
 

dmtaylor

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I recently saw a post elsewhere claiming that lagers need to be lagered because they are fermented cold. The person said that if you ferment warm with W-34/70, you don't need to lager your beer.

I've fermented in the 60sF/15-20C maybe four or five times, and it's needed lagering every time. I wanted to ask the serial warm-fermenters here about their experiences and opinions. Does warm-fermented lager really not need to be lagered?
I haven't used W-34/70 in a few years. I have however used S-189 warm several times, as well as some other lager yeasts. I pitch at ale rates, and I don't find I need to condition them for any extended period before the beer tastes very good. So no, I no longer "lager" my warm-fermented lagers.
 

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Two weeks in the kegerator does wonders on my warm-fermented lagers

Total time is still way shorter since my basement is 60-65 instead of 45-50 for traditional fermentation schedule
 

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Time does wonders to beer. That's it. If it's warm fermented lagers, cold fermenter lagers or even just plain Jane ales. Time does wonders to a beer, ANY beer (except the hop-forward ones to be enjoyed fresh). I've never made a beer where I said it tastes better fresh than 8 weeks down the line, after spending time in the bottle or keg.
 

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Time does wonders to beer. That's it. If it's warm fermented lagers, cold fermenter lagers or even just plain Jane ales. Time does wonders to a beer, ANY beer (except the hop-forward ones to be enjoyed fresh). I've never made a beer where I said it tastes better fresh than 8 weeks down the line, after spending time in the bottle or keg.
#2
 

dmtaylor

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I've never made a beer where I said it tastes better fresh than 8 weeks down the line, after spending time in the bottle or keg.
Well I have. Many times. Age can degrade delicate flavors in some styles. As with so many things in life, the best answer is: "It depends."
 
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Beermeister32

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Time does wonders to beer. That's it. If it's warm fermented lagers, cold fermenter lagers or even just plain Jane ales. Time does wonders to a beer, ANY beer (except the hop-forward ones to be enjoyed fresh). I've never made a beer where I said it tastes better fresh than 8 weeks down the line, after spending time in the bottle or keg.
Take this as the Gospel. Truer words have never been said.
 

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Well I have. Many times. Age can degrade delicate flavors in some styles. As with so many things in life, the best answer is: "It depends."
True, exceptions do exist and you will find them (I specifically mention hop aroma in beers as that's most common these days), but overall, for the most part the general homebrewer starting out will see a huge improvement in his beers if he just lets them sit for a few weeks.
 

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I bottle condition and use a bottling bucket - no closed transfers. I do fill the bottles higher than standard to minimize the air space (about 1/2" from the top). I feel sure there is some oxidation going on, so I don't intentionally give my beer extra aging time. Generally 3 weeks in the fermenter and 3 weeks conditioning - then start drinking. I think for the most part, the beer is better than in the past when I had it sitting for another month or so in bottles. Disclaimer: I've never done a side-by-side test, so confirmation bias could be at play here.
 

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I bottle condition and use a bottling bucket - no closed transfers. I do fill the bottles higher than standard to minimize the air space (about 1/2" from the top). I feel sure there is some oxidation going on, so I don't intentionally give my beer extra aging time. Generally 3 weeks in the fermenter and 3 weeks conditioning - then start drinking. I think for the most part, the beer is better than in the past when I had it sitting for another month or so in bottles. Disclaimer: I've never done a side-by-side test, so confirmation bias could be at play here.
I don't do closed transfers, and I use a little ascorbic acid prior to transfer as an antioxidant. This has helped significantly with hop aroma and flavor in my kegged beer. They usually will sit in the beer fridge for a couple of weeks at least waiting for a spot in the keggerater. Works for me. :mug:
 

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I use about 1/8 tsp, in keg then carefully rack the beer onto it. Close the keg up and purge the HS 3-5 times. it makes a significant difference with the hops for sure.
Do you think this would work similarly with bottling? Would it have any effects on the yeast and natural carbonation?
 

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Do you think this would work similarly with bottling? Would it have any effects on the yeast and natural carbonation?
With that small of an amount, it may have a minimal impact on the yeast. Maybe when bottling it would be better to use an equally small dose of kmeta instead. I haven't tried that, and I don't bottle unless it a really bid beer. :mug:
 

Nubiwan

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Time does wonders to beer. That's it. If it's warm fermented lagers, cold fermenter lagers or even just plain Jane ales. Time does wonders to a beer, ANY beer (except the hop-forward ones to be enjoyed fresh). I've never made a beer where I said it tastes better fresh than 8 weeks down the line, after spending time in the bottle or keg.
So true, but I am always rather eager to see what my beer taste like, that it gets popped after a week bottle conditioning and carbonating. My pipeline is very rarely so big that I can let much beer sit around. Shoot, I am brewing today, so that I can open a bottle New Years Eve. My 4th batch in about 6 weeks. Maybe I have a drinking problem.
 

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Do you think this would work similarly with bottling? Would it have any effects on the yeast and natural carbonation?
I use a teaspoon of Ascorbic acid per 6 US gallons in an IPA I recently did. Sometimes throw it in my regular ales. Held the IPA aroma/taste well enough for 2-3 month's I had it in bottles. I observed no difference in my regular carbonation process, which is around 2/3 cup stirred into bottling bucket. Completely LODO (Lotsa Oxygen Damn Oxygen) process that I have.
 

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I use about 1/8 tsp, in keg then carefully rack the beer onto it. Close the keg up and purge the HS 3-5 times. it makes a significant difference with the hops for sure.
Hmm - I been using a teaspoon. I read 5grams somewhere for 5 gallons. Is 5 grams a teaspoon? Less? If such a small amount works, then I need to reconfigure my process.
 

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So true, but I am always rather eager to see what my beer taste like, that it gets popped after a week bottle conditioning and carbonating. My pipeline is very rarely so big that I can let much beer sit around. Shoot, I am brewing today, so that I can open a bottle New Years Eve. My 4th batch in about 6 weeks. Maybe I have a drinking problem.
Yeah I got more kegs than taps, and I still can't "get ahead", so to speak. I'm hoping to work in some brew days in early in the new year so I can have a few beers in kegs sitting and lagering in the lagering fridge at least for a few months so I don't have to tap them, but that's never been possible before either. The best way I can do it is to just not carbonate the beer. Keg it, purge O2 and slightly pressurize, but don't carbonate. Then it's flat and can't be poured :p
 

Nubiwan

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Yeah I got more kegs than taps, and I still can't "get ahead", so to speak. I'm hoping to work in some brew days in early in the new year so I can have a few beers in kegs sitting and lagering in the lagering fridge at least for a few months so I don't have to tap them, but that's never been possible before either. The best way I can do it is to just not carbonate the beer. Keg it, purge O2 and slightly pressurize, but don't carbonate. Then it's flat and can't be poured :p
Self "Flat"ulation? Sounds painful.
 

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I have however used S-189 warm several times, as well as some other lager yeasts. I pitch at ale rates, and I don't find I need to condition them for any extended period before the beer tastes very good
68F?
Pressurized or not? During whole ferment or not?
Curious.
 
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