Vinegar

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ExperimentalBrewer

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
70
Reaction score
25
So, I had a batch go to vinegar. It went from "wow, that's a tart batch" to "tastes like vinegar, but heck people say ACV is good for you" to "OMG, that is straight up vinegar".

So I was thinking dump the bottles into something and let it finish becoming vinegar. Anyone have experience doing this?

Do I need to worry about having it around increasing my chance of having a repeat vinegar experience?
 
I had some cider that was in a mini keg that sat around a while... In and out of the fridge. Tasted vinegary, but not strong in tartness. I didn't notice "mother and just bottled it up, gave some away. Cleaned and sanitized the mini keg and used it for a cherry wheat that didn't stick around long, but seemed to be no problem. So I think if you are successful in cleaning and sanitizing everything that came in contact you'll be okay.
 
Ive been brewing various styles of vinegars for a few years. It started out with a batch of beer contaminated by aceta bacteria...which I then took to its logical conclusion.

Yesterday, I discovered Vinegar Eels in a batch of vinegar. They are harmless, but not very appealling. Captured a video before I microwave pasteurized the little buggers into oblivion.

Enjoy!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6drzs4o3banok34/20170811_094719.mp4?dl=0

More on "Vinegar Eels":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbatrix_aceti
 
whoa... if it develops eels, it's going down the drain.


Sure, I wouldn't say I'm a vinegar connoisseur, but I enjoy vinegar-based salads and such.

I know nothing about making vinegar, do I let air in or keep air out?
 
I've brewed vinegar for years, usually beer or wine vinegar, and always intentionally, using Braggs for a starter. I typically have kombucha, kefir, vinegar, sourdough, and beer, all in fairly close proximity to each other. About once a year I get a sour beer by accident as I recently did. That's not a bad average as I brew once a week on average, sometimes more. In the home brew environment, you can't eliminate risk entirely, but it's not difficult to manage with good practices.

H.W.
 
whoa... if it develops eels, it's going down the drain.


Sure, I wouldn't say I'm a vinegar connoisseur, but I enjoy vinegar-based salads and such.

I know nothing about making vinegar, do I let air in or keep air out?

Aceta bact like some air, but you have to keep other things out or you might get E E L S! 😲

Cheese cloth or butter muslin well secured over the mouth of the container is a common method. I usually just put the lid on loosely over the cloth and that works fine.

In the case of my eel infestation, the container was not sealed as well as it should have been. First time Ive ever had that issue.

Aceta bact ferm is slow and vinegars benefit from some aging. Ive aged a Guiness based malt vinegar on white oak chips that turned out quite nice.

Making vinegar is dead easy and something to do with beer that didnt work out quite right.
 
There is a simple process for accelerating production of vinegar that involves using a column of wood chips, a pump, and a fan. Air is blown up through the wood chips to provide more oxygen for the acetobacter, and the precursor..... wine or whatever, is pumped up and trickled down through the chips. This process can cut the souring process that otherwise would take months, down to a week or so. It might be an interesting thing to try, as the selection of chips, plus possible addition of botanicals could result in some really interesting "designer" vinegars.

H.W.
 
Ive been brewing various styles of vinegars for a few years. It started out with a batch of beer contaminated by aceta bacteria...which I then took to its logical conclusion.

Yesterday, I discovered Vinegar Eels in a batch of vinegar. They are harmless, but not very appealling. Captured a video before I microwave pasteurized the little buggers into oblivion.

Enjoy!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6drzs4o3banok34/20170811_094719.mp4?dl=0

More on "Vinegar Eels":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbatrix_aceti

Eels? Wrong phylum, but nevertheless I would not want that.

I need to make a keg of vinegar. Any pointers would be appreciated. I dump a lot of beer on the back lawn due to disinterest, and it would be awesome to make a big batch of malt vinegar (I use a lot for various purposes).
 
Its really easy. Just add an active aceta bact culture, like some natural unfiltered vinegar, to the beer and let nature take its course. Keep it covered with close fitting cheese cloth etc to keep other nasties out, but to still allow some air exchange.
 
Its really easy. Just add an active aceta bact culture, like some natural unfiltered vinegar, to the beer and let nature take its course. Keep it covered with close fitting cheese cloth etc to keep other nasties out, but to still allow some air exchange.

OK, I'll give it a shot? How do I know when it's changing, and how long does it take?
 
Acetabact excretes cellulose. This is what many refer to as the "mother" (a bit of a misnomer really). Typically a layer of white cellulose will form on the surfarce...though it may form elsewhere.

Acetabact ferm is slow. Dont know the technical details, but appears to take a few weeks to complete. I take the mother falling as a sign its done. Ive not investigated whether that is true, but by taste it seems fully converted by then.

In the attached pics you can see two "mothers". These are in a batch of vinegar Ive fed twice (previous has fallen, new is forming on the surface).

Not all vinegars will form such a well defined "mother" as this one did. Some are less well defined and not at the surface.
 
how long does it take..... mine seems to still be active.... will it clear when it's done?

Depending on the batch, it may take a while (months) to go really clear. My anecdotal experience is that my malt vinegars clear quicker than my cider vinegars. Presumably due to pectin, but dont know for sure.

Vinegars also benefit from aging so leaving them for an extended time not only clarifies them but also mellows the taste.

Case in point. A few years ago, I had a batch of cider vinegar that just would not clear and I did not like the taste...I wrote it off and tucked it away...about a year later we were cleaning up and there it was...crystal clear with a very nice mellow flavor.

Now, I decant vinegar to bottles, date them, and stow them away. We pull out the oldest first to use.
 
OK, so maybe a dumb question, but is that how vinegar is normally made, starting with fermented beer? What do you normally start with?

wouldn't you simply add a mother to the beer or simply add some live vinegar culture or acetobacter to the beer... :mug: and Bingo! malt vinegar.
 
OK, so maybe a dumb question, but is that how vinegar is normally made, starting with fermented beer? What do you normally start with?

Yes, malt vinegar is just acetabact fermented beer. Acetabact convert alcohol to acetic acid. Its that simple.

Any alcoholic bev can be converted to vinegar this way...beer, wine, cider...
 
That vinegar looks dark. That's kinda what I want. But i have light-colored beer. Will it turn dark, or does it stay the color of the beer?

Nope it wont turn dark. It will remain the same color as the base beer. The only thing that changes is the alcohol to acetic acid. If you want dark vinegar you must start w dark beer.

Also, some of the other beer flavor compounds will stay active. For example, Ive read that really hoppy beers dont make for tasty vinegar. Whereas a malty beer, I know from experience, makes a nice malt vinegar.
 
I've been using amber dme in my yeast starters, cuz I picked up the wrong stuff, and started using the "beer" from it for malt vinegar. Good stuff so far. I have a few aging with peppers from the garden.

It turned out so well I now have a vinegar mother for red wine, white wine, and cider from bits left behind or "gone bad" from being open too long. I need to jar some with herbs from the garden soon.
 
That vinegar looks dark. That's kinda what I want. But i have light-colored beer. Will it turn dark, or does it stay the color of the beer?

Maybe ferm some very dark DME and add to your light beer to darken it or just dump a few bottles of Guiness in it.
 
I bottled a batch of cider last night (1 gal). My taste test said it had a little vinegar flavor to it. I guess I need to watch my sanitation. It's a little disappointing. :(
 
I bottled a batch of cider last night (1 gal). My taste test said it had a little vinegar flavor to it. I guess I need to watch my sanitation. It's a little disappointing. :(

I dunno that the problem is simply poor sanitation in any literal sense. To create vinegar you need oxygen so unless there is /was a large amount of headroom after the fermentation had ended you are not going to transform the cider into vinegar. Sure fruit flies can spread the bacteria and the bacteria can infect your cider but without oxygen I don't know that vinegar results. Might the problem simply be a very tart and cider that is too tart for your taste? What happens if you sweeten the cider a little?
 
has your equipment previously been used to make sour beer or kombucha? how much headspace/surface area after fermentation?
 
Headspace should not have been an issue, fermented in gallon jug up to the neck.

I think I will drink it quickly :)
 
So, I had a batch go to vinegar. It went from "wow, that's a tart batch" to "tastes like vinegar, but heck people say ACV is good for you" to "OMG, that is straight up vinegar".

So I was thinking dump the bottles into something and let it finish becoming vinegar. Anyone have experience doing this?

Do I need to worry about having it around increasing my chance of having a repeat vinegar experience?

I was just reading about vinegar and came across this which may answer your question because I personally haven't a clue being a newbie:

"It only takes one vinegar bacteria to contaminate an entire batch of wine. When using whole chopped fruit or fresh berries, flowers or leaves for winemaking, always kill off the wild microorganisms by adding one crushed Campden tablet per gallon of must, wait 24 hours, and then add your wine yeast starter. Keep the primary covered at all times except when stirring, checking specific gravity, or adding ingredients. After the initial fermentation in the secondary dies down, always keep the wine level topped up. Vinegar bacterium need air to grow, so the less air in the secondary the better. Finally, always sterilize your secondaries and racking tubes very well. At least two minutes of exposure to sterilizing solution is required to properly sterilize equipment."
 
I was just reading about vinegar and came across this which may answer your question because I personally haven't a clue being a newbie:

"It only takes one vinegar bacteria to contaminate an entire batch of wine. When using whole chopped fruit or fresh berries, flowers or leaves for winemaking, always kill off the wild microorganisms by adding one crushed Campden tablet per gallon of must, wait 24 hours, and then add your wine yeast starter. Keep the primary covered at all times except when stirring, checking specific gravity, or adding ingredients. After the initial fermentation in the secondary dies down, always keep the wine level topped up. Vinegar bacterium need air to grow, so the less air in the secondary the better. Finally, always sterilize your secondaries and racking tubes very well. At least two minutes of exposure to sterilizing solution is required to properly sterilize equipment."
Killing the wild microbes is optional.
You can easily make wild/spontaneous wine without any acetic acid simply by protecting from oxygen.

Cheers
 
Back
Top