Vienna lager?

[hilljack13]

I have a 55lb bag of weyermann vienna that I bought and only used a small amount. I was thinking of a vienna lager but finding recipes using this is harder than I thought. Most don't even have this grain in them and some less than 50%. I thought somewhere I saw 100% could be used? Is that even feasible? I have 1lb of saaz hops (not using 1lb!) and I was planning on using S-23 yeast...got 10 packs of that. Just trying to do something new and get some old ingredients out.

 

[camonick]

I brew this regularly and it’s great.
https://fivebladesbrewing.com/geburtstagsparty-traditional-vienna/

Saaz isn’t quite right for style, but might work.

 

[lumpher]

You can do a Vienna Lager with 100% Vienna. Do a single infusion, though; a step mash will thin it out too much, since it should be malty. Saaz would move it a little away from a Vienna, but it would still work. They usually have German Noble hops. If you want it the correct color, add a little Chocolate malt. If you don't care about color, no need for the chocolate.

 

[camonick]

Here’s a picture of the final product from that recipe

 

[hilljack13]

Saaz isn’t quite right for style, but might work.

I must have read that somewhere so I was going by default. I may try just because I have yet to open the bag.

That pour looking mighty tasty!

They usually have German Noble hops

I have Tettnang, Hallertau Mittlefruh, Magnum, and Hersbrucker.

 

[camonick]

I have Tettnang, Hallertau Mittlefruh, Magnum, and Hersbrucker.

Those would be much better choices. I actually use Mittelfrueh in mine

 

[lumpher]

I'd use Mittelfruh also. For bittering take it up to about 23 IBU, then if you want aroma also, add another 1/2 oz at around 5 minutes. Derek's recipe looks really tasty. Might have to do that for a Spring beer; too hot for malt in the Summer here (95+ usually).

 

[keystonehb]

Our recipe uses a decent amount of vienna, with a few other malts to round it out a bit as well as the mittelfruh:

5 lb. Weyermann Vienna
2 lb. Weyermann Pilsner
1 lb. Weyermann Munich II
0.125 lb. Weyermann Dehusked Carafa III

1 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh Hop Pellets with 60 minutes left in the boil.
0.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh with 30 minutes left in the boil.
0.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh with 15 minutes left in the boil.

 

[hilljack13]

Our recipe uses a decent amount of vienna, with a few other malts to round it out a bit as well as the mittelfruh:

5 lb. Weyermann Vienna
2 lb. Weyermann Pilsner
1 lb. Weyermann Munich II
0.125 lb. Weyermann Dehusked Carafa III

1 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh Hop Pellets with 60 minutes left in the boil.
0.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh with 30 minutes left in the boil.
0.5 oz. Hallertau Mittelfruh with 15 minutes left in the boil.

Very nice...I would leave the carafa III out since I don't have that on hand, but plenty of the rest. I may scale this to 1gal and give it a shot pretty quick like. Might I ask which yeast(s) you use or tried?

 

[keystonehb]

Very nice...I would leave the carafa III out since I don't have that on hand, but plenty of the rest. I may scale this to 1gal and give it a shot pretty quick like. Might I ask which yeast(s) you use or tried?

The Carafa 3 is pretty much for color as Viennas tend to be slightly darker. Leaving it out would be fine, it would just be a touch lighter.

If you can lager we usually recommend Wyeast 2308 Munich Lager, WLP830 German Lager or Imperial L17 Harvest for liquid versions. I personally usually like to go dry with w34/70.

 

[lumpher]

I personally usually like to go dry with w34/70.

34/70 makes a good 1. I go with CellarScience German Lager yeast when I have it. I can't tell any difference between those 2 except in price.

 

[keystonehb]

34/70 makes a good 1. I go with CellarScience German Lager yeast when I have it. I can't tell any difference between those 2 except in price.

That would would also work if you had it, just not a product that we have here

 

[hilljack13]

I have a brick of 34/70. I was hoping to try some different yeast as this one just does not want to play nice. Maybe I'll do a 3-4 gal batch and try all the lager yeast at the same go.

 

[Witherby]

I brew this regularly and it’s great.
https://fivebladesbrewing.com/geburtstagsparty-traditional-vienna/

Saaz isn’t quite right for style, but might work.

Craft Beer and Brewing has one of Andreas Krennmair's recipes, which is a smash beer with Vienna malt and Saaz hops:

https://beerandbrewing.com/recipe-andreas-krenmairs-traditional-1870s-vienna-lager/

https://beerandbrewing.com/vienna-lager-fire-in-the-glass/

I have brewed a Vienna lager with 100% Vienna malt multiple times. It ends up paler than what you traditionally see, but it is a tasty beer.

 

[camonick]

I have a brick of 34/70. I was hoping to try some different yeast as this one just does not want to play nice. Maybe I'll do a 3-4 gal batch and try all the lager yeast at the same go.

I know everyone has different experiences with 34/70, but I use it for almost all my lagers.

 

[stevehaun]

A vienna lager is the austrian answer to the Czech pilsner. It was made of vienna malt and saaz hops. It was a relatively pale lager. BJCP is not accurate.

 

[Kickass]

I have one of these on tap a lot. I love Vienna malt so I don’t want to muddle it with other stuff.

98-99% Vienna.
1-2% something dark (300-500L) for color.
Noble hops.
34/70, diamond or cellar science German lager.

 

[odie]

I thought somewhere I saw 100% could be used? Is that even feasible?

yes. Vienna is a "base malt". darker than 2-row but still a base malt. As is Munich also a base malt. Those two are very similar and pretty much interchangeable. Kinda like comparing "US-pale ale" and "UK-Marris Otter".

 

[rmr9]

I’ve done a couple of these now using 100% Barke Vienna. One used all tettnang, the other had styrians at FWH and finished with saaz and both came out great. As mentioned above it’s actually quite a bit lighter in color than you’d expect. I think if you did a SMaSH with Vienna and any noble variety with a clean lager yeast you can’t go wrong.

 

[keystonehb]

yes. Vienna is a "base malt". darker than 2-row but still a base malt. As is Munich also a base malt. Those two are very similar and pretty much interchangeable. Kinda like comparing "US-pale ale" and "UK-Marris Otter".

I wouldn’t say directly interchangeable depending on the style and flavor you’re looking for. Munich is decently darker and gives much more biscuity and caramel coming from more melanoidins. Vienna tends to be lighter notes, like light toasted bread, some honey and lightly nutty.

 

[hilljack13]

It was a relatively pale lager. BJCP is not accurate.

Last night I remembered I have a book by Andreas Krennmair that I never took time to go over. Pretty explicit in using saaz hops and the first recipe shown was from around 1870 and pretty close to what I was looking at doing.

Doing the 1gal SMASH this morning w/ saaz. Only difference is I am going to use novalager just to see if I can curb my diacetyl issue. If this works I'll go back and work the other lager yeasts.

 

[odie]

I wouldn’t say directly interchangeable depending on the style and flavor you’re looking for. Munich is decently darker and gives much more biscuity and caramel coming from more melanoidins. Vienna tends to be lighter notes, like light toasted bread, some honey and lightly nutty.

no, not at 100%...but close enough that if you needed some for a recipe and didn't have it, you could substitute with the other and probably not notice anything different.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

I’ve brewed this one several times subbing the Pils and Munich for 100% Vienna. 34/70 yeast. Super tasty.

https://recipe.brewfather.app/WcSaHRAiAtFo3E8RS74LAOEbZX9Uoo

 

[VTMongoose]

I bought some Avangard Vienna from a local. I'm planning on a SMASH this weekend:

150°F infusion to about 1.049
75 minute boil
Hallertau Mittelfruh 5.4%AA, 0.6 oz each at 60/30/10, similar to Keystone Homebrew Supply's hop bill
chill to 50°F, pitch a vitality starter of 34/70, and let her rip under pressure at room temperature.

My last "Viennaless" lager I used a mix of Pils with Munich, with Victory as a cheater malt, and it came out freaking incredible. I know the single malt version won't be as good, but I almost never brew with Vienna and I want to know what exactly it's bringing to the table versus pils and munich that I've use the heck out of.

I believe Ottakringer which is an absolutely incredible beer, if you can find it, is supposedly 100% Vienna.

 

[dmbrew48]

How about a simple Vienna recipe from Briess?
https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/recipes/beer/display/goldpils_vienna_1
I used 34/70 & subbed Celia & Hallertau - it's what I had - in secondary now - tasted good at that point... just saying.
YMMV

 

[Gajol]

I have use this

Made it my own with some change but this is a good one

 

[hilljack13]

And away we go....still settling but goodness the amount of trub that got through two hop bags as I was transferring to fv..

Everything went good except I couldn't keep the igloo warm enough and final mash temp was just over 140F which I think caused my expected gravity readings to be down. Preboil 1.034 instead of 1.036, and OG 1.049 instead of 1.052.

 

[BongoYodeler]

And away we go....still settling but goodness the amount of trub that got through two hop bags as I was transferring to fv..

Everything went good except I couldn't keep the igloo warm enough and final mash temp was just over 140F which I think caused my expected gravity readings to be down. Preboil 1.034 instead of 1.036, and OG 1.049 instead of 1.052.
View attachment 868430

I bet it'll still be good though.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Can you get Red X malt in the US, it’s a perfect partner with Vienna malt. They are both base malts. Red X is 15 SRM whereas Vienna is only 4.

 

[hilljack13]

A few hours later...things looking good

 

[An Ankoù]

Those would be much better choices. I actually use Mittelfrueh in mine

Me too.

 

[An Ankoù]

Can you get Red X malt in the US, it’s a perfect partner with Vienna malt. They are both base malts. Red X is 15 SRM whereas Vienna is only 4.

That's interesting, @Cheshire Cat , what do you propose? Red-X is one of my favourite malts and I use it with 10% caramalt of the same colour for my current house quaffing ale. Never thought of mixing it with Vienna, though. I make mine with 100% Vienna plus a little acidulated malt. But I'm always up for an experiment.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

That's interesting, @Cheshire Cat , what do you propose? Red-X is one of my favourite malts and I use it with 10% caramalt of the same colour for my current house quaffing ale. Never thought of mixing it with Vienna, though. I make mine with 100% Vienna plus a little acidulated malt. But I'm always up for an experiment.

This is my latest version of Vienna Lager as a user user.

Malts (4.325 kg)​

1.8 kg (41.6%) — BESTMALZ BEST Red X® — Grain — 15 SRM
1.7 kg (39.3%) — Crisp Vienna Malt — Grain — 4 SRM
400 g (9.3%) — Crisp Light Munich Malt — Grain — 11 SRM
200 g (4.6%) — BESTMALZ BEST Melanoidin Light — Grain — 25.5 SRM
200 g (4.6%) — Weyermann Carared — Grain — 24 SRM
25 g (0.6%) — Weyermann Carafa III — Grain — 525 SRM

Hops (50 g)​

15 g (21 IBU) — Hallertau Magnum 10% — Boil — 60 min
35 g (6 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 2.8% — Boil — 15 m

You could just go with 50/50 Red X and Vienna but I’m low on both so a user upper.

 

[An Ankoù]

This is my latest version of Vienna Lager as a user user.

Malts (4.325 kg)​

1.8 kg (41.6%) — BESTMALZ BEST Red X® — Grain — 15 SRM
1.7 kg (39.3%) — Crisp Vienna Malt — Grain — 4 SRM
400 g (9.3%) — Crisp Light Munich Malt — Grain — 11 SRM
200 g (4.6%) — BESTMALZ BEST Melanoidin Light — Grain — 25.5 SRM
200 g (4.6%) — Weyermann Carared — Grain — 24 SRM
25 g (0.6%) — Weyermann Carafa III — Grain — 525 SRM

Hops (50 g)​

15 g (21 IBU) — Hallertau Magnum 10% — Boil — 60 min
35 g (6 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 2.8% — Boil — 15 m

You could just go with 50/50 Red X and Vienna but I’m low on both so a user upper.

Thanks. I think the latter would be my preference with, perhaps, just a tad of the black stuff to bring the colour back to 30 ebc. Hmmm.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Thanks. I think the latter would be my preference with, perhaps, just a tad of the black stuff to bring the colour back to 30 ebc. Hmmm.

And my preference too and I agree with the Carafa 3.

 

[rmr9]

This thread is making me want to brew up another Barke Vienna SMaSH

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Can you get Red X malt in the US, it’s a perfect partner with Vienna malt. They are both base malts. Red X is 15 SRM whereas Vienna is only 4.

Short answer, yes.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Great thread!
I have been pondering a Vienna lager as my next brew.

 

[An Ankoù]

This thread is making me want to brew up another Barke Vienna SMaSH

With Mittelfrüh?
I can get Barke Vienna, but only by the sack. Is there a noticeable difference? I've been underwhelmed by some of these heritage malts.

 

[rmr9]

With Mittelfrüh?
I can get Barke Vienna, but only by the sack. Is there a noticeable difference? I've been underwhelmed by some of these heritage malts.

I can only get Barke Vienna by the sack as well, but it’s worth it. I haven’t really tried regular Weyermann Vienna - at least not in years and not at 100% of the grain bill so I can’t say if there are noticeable differences. I will say I very much enjoy Barke Vienna and will be getting another sack as soon as this one runs out.

I bet Mittelfrüh would work very well with it, and with YVH getting the 2024 harvests in I may have to order some of that as well.