Very little hop flavor in my IPA

[SurlyBrew]

I attempted to make a clone of Stone IPA. Stone's recipe called for using wyeast 1968. I understand that this yeast creates a more malty beer. But after trying this beer after 1 week of bottle conditioning, the flavor was almost all malt and no hop. I used leaf hops for the first time, and I used around 3 oz in the boil and dry hopped for 5 days with another 1.5 oz. I know its a very young beer, didn't epect to have any carbonation but there was actually a lot. I had to wait for the foam settle before pouring the rest. My question is will the hop flavor grow with age? It tastes nothing like I expected. I usually like to try a beer 1 week in, 2 weeks in and then 3 weeks in to see how the flavors change. But, this should be a good indication of what the beer will taste like in the future, even though its very young. For all the hops I added I am getting no hop flavor, which I love. Pretty confused... This may be the last time I use wyeast 1968 in an IPA as well as leaf hops until I grow my own. Thoughts?

Cheers

 

[Bmorebrew]

What was your hop schedule? Is your recipe AG or extract/PM? I haven't seen the recipe, but that doesn't seem like a lot of hops for an IPA - I would expect more.

Hop flavor will diminish with age, that's why IPAs are best fresh. I wouldn't blame the yeast so quickly here, it tends to have a more subtle influence than removing the hop flavor and aroma from an IPA.

 

[Logzor]

I thought this recipe called for WLP002? I used this on the Stone Pale Ale.

 

[jakegreen58]

I made an All-Grain IPA with 2.25oz whole leaf hops, Hops Schedule below. My tastes reasonably hoppy, not overwhelming but like a mild American IPA. If you added 3oz of hops it should be pretty noticeable.

1oz Columbus @60
0.25 oz Cascade @60
0.25 oz Cascade @45
0.25 oz Cascade @30
0.25 oz Cascade @15
0.25 oz Cascade @1

 

[bchurch]

Tell us more about how it was brewed too, how long did it take to cool down to pitching temp?

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

But after trying this beer after 1 week of bottle conditioning, the flavor was almost all malt and no hop.

Thoughts?

Cheers

Yes, you tried the beer after only one week in the bottle, it's not going to taste like the finished product at this point. 3 weeks at 70 degrees then at least a few days in the fridge is the minimum time before a bottled beer will be 'ready'. Give this batch a couple, few more weeks conditioning time, then make an assessment.
FWIW, Stone uses the 004/1084 strain for their IPA (and other beers), the 1968 will produce a slightly more malty, and noticeably more ester-y beer than the Irish ale strain that Stone uses in house.

 

[bruin_ale]

FWIW, Stone uses the 002/1084 strain for their IPA (and other beers)

Think you mean 004 here. The WLP002 is the same strain as WY1968.
OP, you didn't tell us your recipe and I'd be curious what your FG is. It's possible the hop flavor is there, but the yeast left behind so much malt that the hop flavors are pushed to the background - hard to say without tasting it.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Think you mean 004 here. The WLP002 is the same strain as WY1968.
OP, you didn't tell us your recipe and I'd be curious what your FG is. It's possible the hop flavor is there, but the yeast left behind so much malt that the hop flavors are pushed to the background - hard to say without tasting it.

You're very right, I did. Fast fingers, slow brain this morning!

 

[King of Cascade]

Yes, you tried the beer after only one week in the bottle, it's not going to taste like the finished product at this point. 3 weeks at 70 degrees then at least a few days in the fridge is the minimum time before a bottled beer will be 'ready'. Give this batch a couple, few more weeks conditioning time, then make an assessment.
FWIW, Stone uses the 002/1084 strain for their IPA (and other beers), the 1968 will produce a slightly more malty, and noticeably more ester-y beer than the Irish ale strain that Stone uses in house.

you tried the beer after only one week in the bottle, it's not going to taste like the finished product

Yes it will, The hop flavors are established in the boil and only fade away after that.

Stone uses the 002/1084 strain for their IPA

WLP002 is Wyeast 1968
Wyeast 1084 is WLP 004

 

[King of Cascade]

I made an All-Grain IPA with 2.25oz whole leaf hops, Hops Schedule below. My tastes reasonably hoppy, not overwhelming but like a mild American IPA. If you added 3oz of hops it should be pretty noticeable.

1oz Columbus @60
0.25 oz Cascade @60
0.25 oz Cascade @45
0.25 oz Cascade @30
0.25 oz Cascade @15
0.25 oz Cascade @1

That hop schedule looks about right for a 1 gallon batch...

Try about 10oz per five gallon batch and back load the hops to get 50% of your IBU's from 20 or less additions

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Yes it will, The hop flavors are established in the boil and only fade away after that.


WLP002 is Wyeast 1968
Wyeast 1084 is WLP 004

yeah, thanks, I corrected that typo before you posted.

You're very right, I did. Fast fingers, slow brain this morning!

FWIW, Stone uses the 004/1084 strain for their IPA

And obviously the hops flavor is established in the boil, and will fade, but green beer is green beer. If the OP is tasting beer after a week in bottles, its GREEN, thus not tasting like it will in another few weeks. I was simply saying not to make an assessment on a brew after only a week in the bottle.

 

[SurlyBrew]

I know I am jumping the gun on this one, but never been shocked like this. I have tried green beer and it was somewhat close to end result. This beer will have to change massively to become what I intended on making. But this is besides the point. I should be tasting some hops. I am at work and don't have the recipe on hand, I followed te stone recipe from here http://www.stonebrew.com/news/081201/ I substitued the perle and the other hop with columbus and chinook and left the centennial in the recipe. I did a 5 gallon boil so I took some hops out to account for the hop utilization, still same ibu's etc. It twas an extract recipe. The og was a lot lower than I expected. Maybe 1.043 OG and an FG of 1.013. Not as strong as I was intending. Only a 4% beer...

 

[Brewskii]

I did a 5 gallon boil so I took some hops out to account for the hop utilization, still same ibu's etc. It twas an extract recipe.

No need on a beer with this kind of hop schedule. I don't have a recipie for this beer but for a "normal" American IPA I would think a minimalist approach to the hop bill would be around 6 -8 oz to the boil and maybe another
1-2 dry hops. People do some crazy stuff with hops but in this kind of beer the sky
Is the limit.
What was the hop schedule that you used, specifically?

 

[SurlyBrew]

No need on a beer with this kind of hop schedule. I don't have a recipie for this beer but for a "normal" American IPA I would think a minimalist approach to the hop bill would be around 6 -8 oz to the boil and maybe another
1-2 dry hops. People do some crazy stuff with hops but in this kind of beer the sky
Is the limit.
What was the hop schedule that you used, specifically?

I would have to check the recipe in beer smith and get back to you on this one.

 

[Brewskii]

I would have to check the recipe in beer smith and get back to you on this one.

* edit. I am looking at the wrong damn recipie

 

[Brewskii]

Do you have the commercial example on hand? The recipe looks weak in the hops for an American IP,A IMHO

 

[dbrewski]

First off, you will get less utilization from leaf hops, anywhere from 10-30% less utilization. Second, how did you chill the wort, how long did it take? More time at higher temps will drive off some of the flavors and aroma. Finally, dry hopping will increase your aroma and even flavor but it takes time.

I had the worst time getting good hop flavor and aroma, until I started using a french press for my flameout additions. You can search french press to find out more. And dry hopping in the serving keg. Even dry hops in the secondary didn't do it for me. These two things have added a ton of aroma/flavor and I would recommend them.

 

[SurlyBrew]

Here is the recipe.

5 gallon boil
6lbs golden light LME
1 lb 2 row
1lb crysal 20l
Either .60 oz chinook
And .30 oz columbus (60 min )
Or
.50 oz columbus and
.40 oz chinook (60 min)

2 oz centennial (15)
1oz centennial dry hop 5 days
.5 oz dry hop 5 days

Bittering hop schedule could be either or, don't have beersmith infront of me and I'm at work. But its either one of these.

 

[Bmorebrew]

Also, what kind of water did you use - RO, distilled, spring, tap? If the water you used is really soft, next time you might consider adding a little gypsum, it can help bring a little sharper edge to the hops and might make them more noticeable. Plus I would shift some of that 15 minute addition to include a 1 minute addition.

EDIT - Your last post went up after I started the above question. What temp did you steep at? That 2-row needs to be converted. Maybe it didn't get converted and just added some starch to the wort?

 

[GaryJohn]

need moar hops!

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

First off, you will get less utilization from leaf hops, anywhere from 10-30% less utilization.

I completely over looked that in the OP. I'd guess that has a lot to do with it, if the recipe called for pellets, you gotta adjust if you're using whole hops. I always add 15% more weight when replacing pellets with whole.
I also totally agree with you about figuring out what gets you the best aroma/flavor from your late or dry hops. It takes some playing around with late additions and dry hopping.

OP, I've noticed that with extract beers, I need to increase the hops a bit to get the same flavor/aroma that I'd get in that same beer brewed all grain. I can't explain why, but my extract beers always seem to have less hops character than my AG brews in general. Using late extract adds may help with that a bit, but I've never seen much, if any difference in hops utilization between late extract adds and adding all the extract at the beginning. I'd guess the combo of this being an extract beer and you using a good amount less hops in the boil is why this beer isn't as hoppy as you expected.

Also, what kind of water did you use - RO, distilled, spring, tap? If the water you used is really soft, next time you might consider adding a little gypsum, it can help bring a little sharper edge to the hops and might make them more noticeable.

Dude, your avatar is making my eyes water! Love it!

 

[brewski08]

3 oz? In an IPA? Call me a hop head, but this doesn't sound like much hop to me.

Buy some whole cones and when serving your beer drop one on top of the head.

 

[ZamaMan]

I suspect more of the issue came from recipe than yeast selection.

 

[King of Cascade]

yeah, thanks, I corrected that typo before you posted.


And obviously the hops flavor is established in the boil, and will fade, but green beer is green beer. If the OP is tasting beer after a week in bottles, its GREEN, thus not tasting like it will in another few weeks. I was simply saying not to make an assessment on a brew after only a week in the bottle.[/QUOTE]

I guess my point was, The hop flavor is not going to increase anymore

 

[TrubHead]

After trying the hop burst method, I'm amazed at the immense hop flavor and aroma it imparts. In fact next time I'll tone it down a bit since it overwhelms.

 

[brewski08]

After trying the hop burst method, I'm amazed at the immense hop flavor and aroma it imparts. In fact next time I'll tone it down a bit since it overwhelms.

Oh yea...hop bursting is definitely the way to go. Check out my recipe for the Hoptopus under my recipes section. All the late hop additions made my beer absolutely fantastic and ooze with hops. Whenever I make a hoppy beer in the future I will always hop burst and minimize my earlier hop additions.

 

[Bmorebrew]

OP, I've noticed that with extract beers, I need to increase the hops a bit to get the same flavor/aroma that I'd get in that same beer brewed all grain. I can't explain why, but my extract beers always seem to have less hops character than my AG brews in general.

This makes sense too - in AG you're boiling down from 6 gallons to 5 gallons (roughly speaking), and in extract you might be boiling ~3 gallons? The important thing is that if you're not doing a full volume boil, your wort is more concentrated, making it more difficult for compounds to dissolve into solution. Couple this with a less efficient whole-hop vs. pellet, and this is what I would point my finger at.

Two factors you would need to compensate for with more hops.

 

[King of Cascade]

First off, you will get less utilization from leaf hops, anywhere from 10-30% less utilization. Second, how did you chill the wort, how long did it take? More time at higher temps will drive off some of the flavors and aroma. Finally, dry hopping will increase your aroma and even flavor but it takes time.

I had the worst time getting good hop flavor and aroma, until I started using a french press for my flameout additions. You can search french press to find out more. And dry hopping in the serving keg. Even dry hops in the secondary didn't do it for me. These two things have added a ton of aroma/flavor and I would recommend them.

I know all the books say this is true but if you think about stone's procdure it might help in your homebrewing. Most, if not all breweries whirlpool for 15- 20 minutes, it could take 30 to 40 additional minutes to trasnsfer and cool 20 bbls of beer out of the kettle. So we are talking about almost an hour to cool the beer when most homebrewers with a chiller could do it in 10 -15 minutes tops. lately I have been adding about 4oz of hops at flame out and letting them steep for 45 minutes before cooling and my hop flavor and aroma are so good I dont need to dry hop and risk oxydation.

 

[SurlyBrew]

I agree, it is lacking I the hop department, but it should be noticable. I adjusted the recipe to include the lack of hop oils in leafs hops so that was accounted for. Not sure why the recipe called for a pound of 2 row. Steeped grains for 30 mins at 155F. Cooled it down with my wort chiller in 15-20 mins. This was definitely not as good of a recipe as I thought. I also didn't do a late etract addition due to the fact that I was doing a full boil. I did a extra pale ale with 3oz of cascade in the boil and 1oz of dry hops and had way more hop flavor then this. These hops are all high alpha hops too. In theory there should be a stronger hop pressence. I am thinking that I under hopped the recipe for the type of yeast I used.I assumed the hop amount was enough to over shadow the maltiness of the beer. But, I definitely unser estimated the 1968's ability to bring on the flavor of the malt. Its not as sublte as I thought. I'm really curious what it will trun out like in the next few weeks since this is about as hoppy as it will get. Pretty disapointed with this as an IPA. Low alcohol percent, and low hop flavor. Not much of an IPA at all. But, on a positive note, I have a surly furios extract in the making that has almost a pound of hops in the recipe. There will most certainly be no lack of hop flavor there. (Sorry for the typos, using my phone)

Cheere

 

[King of Cascade]

I agree, it is lacking I the hop department, but it should be noticable. I adjusted the recipe to include the lack of hop oils in leafs hops so that was accounted for. Not sure why the recipe called for a pound of 2 row. Steeped grains for 30 mins at 155F. Cooled it down with my wort chiller in 15-20 mins. This was definitely not as good of a recipe as I thought. I also didn't do a late etract addition due to the fact that I was doing a full boil. I did a extra pale ale with 3oz of cascade in the boil and 1oz of dry hops and had way more hop flavor then this. These hops are all high alpha hops too. In theory there should be a stronger hop pressence. I am thinking that I under hopped the recipe for the type of yeast I used.I assumed the hop amount was enough to over shadow the maltiness of the beer. But, I definitely unser estimated the 1968's ability to bring on the flavor of the malt. Its not as sublte as I thought. I'm really curious what it will trun out like in the next few weeks since this is about as hoppy as it will get. Pretty disapointed with this as an IPA. Low alcohol percent, and low hop flavor. Not much of an IPA at all. But, on a positive note, I have a surly furios extract in the making that has almost a pound of hops in the recipe. There will most certainly be no lack of hop flavor there. (Sorry for the typos, using my phone)

Cheere

High alpha acid will not get you more flavor, maybe even less flavor. Just use more next time

 

[TrubHead]

Oh yea...hop bursting is definitely the way to go. Check out my recipe for the Hoptopus under my recipes section. All the late hop additions made my beer absolutely fantastic and ooze with hops. Whenever I make a hoppy beer in the future I will always hop burst and minimize my earlier hop additions.

Exactly my thinking. Thanks for the IPA suggestion.

 

[SurlyBrew]

Regardless of the classification as an IPA, alpha percentages, and hop amounts ,etc. There should be some hop flavor! From 4.4 oz of hops. Obviously, I wouldn't classify this as an IPA anmore, so say this a pale ale recipe. This should be a sufficient amount of hops for a pale ale. Yeast apparently makes all the difference, this I have learned now.

 

[SurlyBrew]

Also, what kind of water did you use - RO, distilled, spring, tap? If the water you used is really soft, next time you might consider adding a little gypsum, it can help bring a little sharper edge to the hops and might make them more noticeable. Plus I would shift some of that 15 minute addition to include a 1 minute addition.

EDIT - Your last post went up after I started the above question. What temp did you steep at? That 2-row needs to be converted. Maybe it didn't get converted and just added some starch to the wort?

I used spring water (chippewa springs to be exact). I steeped at 155F

 

[SurlyBrew]

I completely over looked that in the OP. I'd guess that has a lot to do with it, if the recipe called for pellets, you gotta adjust if you're using whole hops. I always add 15% more weight when replacing pellets with whole.
I also totally agree with you about figuring out what gets you the best aroma/flavor from your late or dry hops. It takes some playing around with late additions and dry hopping.

OP, I've noticed that with extract beers, I need to increase the hops a bit to get the same flavor/aroma that I'd get in that same beer brewed all grain. I can't explain why, but my extract beers always seem to have less hops character than my AG brews in general. Using late extract adds may help with that a bit, but I've never seen much, if any difference in hops utilization between late extract adds and adding all the extract at the beginning. I'd guess the combo of this being an extract beer and you using a good amount less hops in the boil is why this beer isn't as hoppy as you expected.



I accounted for t the fact that I was using leaf hops vs. Pellets. I calculated the AAU's accordingly

 

[SurlyBrew]

This makes sense too - in AG you're boiling down from 6 gallons to 5 gallons (roughly speaking), and in extract you might be boiling ~3 gallons? The important thing is that if you're not doing a full volume boil, your wort is more concentrated, making it more difficult for compounds to dissolve into solution. Couple this with a less efficient whole-hop vs. pellet, and this is what I would point my finger at.

Two factors you would need to compensate for with more hops.

I did a 5 gallon boil and was left with 4 gallons in the end, and dilluted it with an extra gallon. So it wasn't half and half, like you said. Also, I accounted for the the pellets vs. Leaf efficiency so this wasn't an issue either.

 

[Brewskii]

As to the OP... Are you familiar With the Stone's beer that this clones? Seems to me that the recipie is written to be kind of subtle for an IPA. My
Point being this may not be the IPA for you, they are not all created equal.

..... Oh, and all the above too.

 

[SurlyBrew]

As to the OP... Are you familiar With the Stone's beer that this clones? Seems to me that the recipie is written to be kind of subtle for an IPA. My
Point being this may not be the IPA for you, they are not all created equal.

..... Oh, and all the above too.

Yes I am very familiar with this beer. Got it at the liquor store right next to my apartment, loved it and wanted to make a clone. I found the recipe and made it a few weeks later. I should have taken this recipe with a grain of salt. I agree, it is very subtle recipe for an IPA. The real Stone IPA has much more hop punch.