using silicone tubing for makeshift herms set up?

[Redtab78]

So, As the title says, I am wondering if anyone has recirculated through some high temp silicone tubing through the MLTto keep or increase mash temp. I am losing close to 10 degrees from dough in to the 60 min mark using an SS Infusion mash tun, and before I sink another $150 into a stainless HERMS coil, I was wondering if anyone has used some silicone tubing to see if it would work.

 

[day_trippr]

I can't imagine that would be very effective, and good quality silicone tubing isn't cheap.
That money would be better put to an SS hex, imo...

Cheers!

 

[Rodent]

here's my reddnek HERMS setup that utilizes hi-temp silicone

with a 67F ambient room temp, I run the HLT at 155F to keep mash temp at 149F while recirculating a little under 1G/minute all but the first 5 minutes after mash-in. I have a 25' stainles wort chiller coil in the HLT. I have since moved to a 10G alum HLT for a more stable temp immediately following mash-in, and can easily raise the temp by simply increasing the burner flame

 

[day_trippr]

That's not what the OP is proposing.
You have an SS hex. The OP is thinking zero SS, all silicone tubing...

Cheers!

 

[Rodent]

That's not what the OP is proposing.
You have an SS hex. The OP is thinking zero SS, all silicone tubing...

Cheers!

missed that nuance

my 25' SS wort chiller coil was $25 shipped from eBay. that's less $/foot than what I paid for the hi-temp silicone hoses

 

[Redtab78]

yes, I was thinking of say about 10ft of silicone tubing just floating in my HLT as a make shift HERMS coil essentially.

 

[SanPancho]

Braided silicone ain’t cheap. A small SS chiller coil is more effective and probably the same price on sale.

 

[Rodent]

given the insulating capability of the silicone tubing (i.e. low heat transfer) I suspect you'll not be satisfied with the results of tubing alone

 

[Redtab78]

I do have an old jocky box I suppose I can dismantle and use the 50' coils in that....as I was just informed by my wife lol

 

[Sconnie12]

Isn't the only point of insulated Ss mash tun to hold temps throughout the mash? If that's not the case I would contact them and ask for a return. that thing ain't cheap!

 

[mirthfuldragon]

I am losing close to 10 degrees from dough in to the 60 min mark using an SS Infusion mash tun

My un-insulated keggle drops 5-7° F over an hour in ~50° F ambient for BIAB. A little apples to oranges, but that's a big drop. Are you pre-heating the mash tun?

 

[oakbarn]

I have both the 20 Gal and 10 Gal SS Brewtech Mash Tuns. Both hold the Mash Temp very well for about 60 minutes, then drop off. You can get a heater system for the 10 gallon one which I do have. I do sit them on an insulated foam board (the kind they build AC Boxes out of). You could also make a Tent of Reflective stuff for attics that has the foil covering bubble wrap fairly cheaply. I have not done that for my SS Brewtech Mash Tuns, but have for my 40 Gallon Stout SS MLT as it had no insulation at all. It really helps with that one.

 

[balrog]

I just reread the op's op. @Redtab78 , do you lose 10° from strike temp to 60m later, or say 3m after dough-in when everything has settled, to 60m later? That matches what I lose, full vol BIAB strike temp to dough-in (avg 5.6° drop over last 15 batches), plus 60m drop (avg 3.0° drop over last 15 batches)

 

[Vale71]

Keep also in mind that you'll also be losing some heat through the lenght of tubing that does not sit in the water, in the end the net balance will most likely be so close to zero that you won't even notice the difference.

 

[Redtab78]

Ok, so my strike water is at 163, i dough in its down to 154, when i sparge its down to 144

 

[Redtab78]

@oakbarn, do u preheat yours?

 

[augiedoggy]

here's my reddnek HERMS setup that utilizes hi-temp silicone

View attachment 596390
with a 67F ambient room temp, I run the HLT at 155F to keep mash temp at 149F while recirculating a little under 1G/minute all but the first 5 minutes after mash-in. I have a 25' stainles wort chiller coil in the HLT. I have since moved to a 10G alum HLT for a more stable temp immediately following mash-in, and can easily raise the temp by simply increasing the burner flame

you also have an insulated mashtun already holding mash temps so the herms should be fairly pointless if the mash tun does its job unless you do a lot of step mashing.

It sounds like you guys just arent properly preheating your mashtuns... its something that should be done with any mashtun especially a stainless one. either that or the mash tuns just arent worth their weight (literally) and cost vs a kettle or cooler right?

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok, so my strike water is at 163, i dough in its down to 154, when i sparge its down to 144

I have read these conflicting reports of the insulated stainless tuns not holding temps well before and wonder how people report such drastically different performance from them. I have seen far more people report that they do not work as well as a plastic cooler than people who give optimistic reports of them holding perfect temps every time. I know im beating dead horse here but If you paid all that money for the most expensive stainless insulated tuns available you shouldnt have to wrap it in reflective tents or use rims or herms period! As Ive mentioned before using a herms with one of these is like wearing a raincoat inside a tent... if you need to do this somethings wrong with the tent.
Are you constantly opening it Or are you stirring the mash? These things will cause a drop in temps regardless.

If its really that bad you may want to consider a plastic beverage cooler since they hold temps well and cost about 1 /10th of what the stainless version does. maybe take the money from selling the heavy bulky insulated tun thats not working and buy a shiny stainless kettle to use along with a herms or rims?

 

[mongoose33]

When I use my 12-gallon Igloo cooler as a mash tun, I pour a gallon of boiling water in it 15 minutes before I'm going to use it, to warm it up. The steam warms it all up, top and sides too.

Otherwise, I'll get a 3 or 4 degree drop just from the mash warming up the cooler. Stainless is going to be worse in that way. And even more so if it's stored in ambient conditions that are cold, like a garage in winter. If OP is not preheating the tun, that's almost certainly the main part of the issue here.

 

[Rodent]

you also have an insulated mashtun already holding mash temps so the herms should be fairly pointless if the mash tun does its job unless you do a lot of step mashing.

I do step mashes.

since my tun is insulated, options for raising temp are to add water, decoction, or HERMS. HERMS was easiest for me to incorporate and meets my needs

 

[augiedoggy]

I do step mashes.

since my tun is insulated, options for raising temp are to add water, decoction, or HERMS. HERMS was easiest for me to incorporate and meets my needs

fair enough... I would have skipped the insulated tun though if I were you since its function is redundant at this size for the extra cost and work to empty and clean every brew session.. You may see something differently that I can but I used to use an insulated MT when I first went to my rims and replacing it with a regular kettle I could easily carry outside and dump in the compost bin as well as clean in the sink were benefits for me. Tough to tell but your setup appears to be smaller for only 5 gallons so the tradeoffs arent the same either. I also wonder how many degrees higher you have to keep your herms with the longer hoses? from what I read this may impact the actual mash conversion since the conversion activity taking place in the HX will be at a higher temp than the conversion happening at the same time in the MT.. one of the reasons I went to a longer lower watt density rims myself to keep temps more consistent everywhere which did boost my efficiency.

 

[mongoose33]

I also wonder how many degrees higher you have to keep your herms with the longer hoses? from what I read this may impact the actual mash conversion since the conversion activity taking place in the HX will be at a higher temp than the conversion happening at the same time in the MT.. one of the reasons I went to a longer lower watt density rims myself to keep temps more consistent everywhere which did boost my efficiency.

Shoot....now I'm puzzling over something.

As you know (after having helped me w/ my new system and RIMS), when I brewed last time, I had my RIMS controller set a couple degrees higher than what I actually had as a temp in the middle of my mash tun. That was to maintain a temp of, IIRC, 152. So I had the RIMS set at something like 154.

This offsets any heat loss in the silicone tubing and pump, as well as whatever heat loss is occurring from the mash tun.

So, what is my mash temp? Is it 154 and that's the conversion temp I should be considering? Or is it 152, which is what's in the middle of my mash tun? An average of the two?

Wow, this is interesting. I know a difference of a degree or two isn't likely to be discernable, but my whole brewing journey has been one of isolating and controlling the various process elements to the greatest extent possible.

It also makes me wonder if this is almost like a mini step mash, where some of the time the mash is at different temps....

 

[Rodent]

fair enough... I would have skipped the insulated tun though if I were you since its function is redundant at this size for the extra cost and work to empty and clean every brew session.. You may see something differently that I can but I used to use an insulated MT when I first went to my rims and replacing it with a regular kettle I could easily carry outside and dump in the compost bin as well as clean in the sink were benefits for me. Tough to tell but your setup appears to be smaller for only 5 gallons so the tradeoffs arent the same either. I also wonder how many degrees higher you have to keep your herms with the longer hoses? from what I read this may impact the actual mash conversion since the conversion activity taking place in the HX will be at a higher temp than the conversion happening at the same time in the MT.. one of the reasons I went to a longer lower watt density rims myself to keep temps more consistent everywhere which did boost my efficiency.

at the time I made my purchase, this was the only non-plastic option available. would I make the same tun choice if I did it ground up today? probably not, but it's what I have so it's what I work with.

I consistently hit 75-80% efficiency with a LHBS crush when utilizing ~22# of grain for a 2xIPA and a batch sparge workflow. there's room to improve, sure, but I'm OK with it for now.

 

[augiedoggy]

Shoot....now I'm puzzling over something.

As you know (after having helped me w/ my new system and RIMS), when I brewed last time, I had my RIMS controller set a couple degrees higher than what I actually had as a temp in the middle of my mash tun. That was to maintain a temp of, IIRC, 152. So I had the RIMS set at something like 154.

This offsets any heat loss in the silicone tubing and pump, as well as whatever heat loss is occurring from the mash tun.

So, what is my mash temp? Is it 154 and that's the conversion temp I should be considering? Or is it 152, which is what's in the middle of my mash tun? An average of the two?

Wow, this is interesting. I know a difference of a degree or two isn't likely to be discernable, but my whole brewing journey has been one of isolating and controlling the various process elements to the greatest extent possible.

It also makes me wonder if this is almost like a mini step mash, where some of the time the mash is at different temps....

This is a good question. I dont have a good answer other than the conversion takes place in the wort not necessarily the grain.. consider that with a high gravity element the wort coming in contact with the beer is actually a much higher temp... still the largest area of wort is in the mash tun and continues to convert at the desired temp but there is a certain amount of denaturing going on around the rims.. again my goal for going with a very long ULWD rims element which only needs to heat up to just over the desired mash temp to maintan the mash temp. (this is also why some prefer herms over rims)

A direct kettle rims is even more likely to result in some denatured enzymes but then again its still less than decoction right?

 

[augiedoggy]

at the time I made my purchase, this was the only non-plastic option available. would I make the same tun choice if I did it ground up today? probably not, but it's what I have so it's what I work with.

I consistently hit 75-80% efficiency with a LHBS crush when utilizing ~22# of grain for a 2xIPA and a batch sparge workflow. there's room to improve, sure, but I'm OK with it for now.

Again fair enough... my original comments werent specifically just directed at you (even if it seemed that way) but more to bring the topic to discussion for others to consider before making their choices since many look here for suggestions and options.

 

[Redtab78]

Dont get me wrong here, my Mash effeciency is spot on, and I am regularly hitting the high 90's. My issue is I like to control the temp to achieve a specific conversion, such as a maltier 152-156 or a dryer 146-148. I also would like to do step mashes without decoction, but that is not really what drove me to write this.

I have been doing alot of research on this Infusion mashtun, and have found that MOST people do not preheat them properly, and I am in that category. SO, having that said....before my next brew I am going to attempt a small experiment. Since I still have my coller mash tun, I am going to pour 2 gallons of boiling water into each vessel. let them sit and monitor the temp at 30 min mark. if what I think is going to happen does (they will both drop temps at the same rate, or the coller will be slightly lower at 30 min then the stainless), then the issue I feel is i am not using the mash tun in accordance with the instruction like I should. WHICH STATES: mash tun should be properly pre-heated using 170° water prior to mash in.

Maybe I am just not remembering when I used my cooler that temps dropped also if I didnt pre-heat (thanks to too many DIPA)

I will def get back on here and post what happens.

 

[Bobby_M]

The tun is going to take about 10-12F away from the strike water alone. Then the grain is going to take another 10F or so depending on grain temp and ratio. You should put your strike water into the tun at 25F above your planned mash temp and cover it for 5 minutes, then stir until you get down to about 163. THEN stir the grain in. I doubt you'll lose more than 2F over an hour doing it that way.

 

[augiedoggy]

Dont get me wrong here, my Mash effeciency is spot on, and I am regularly hitting the high 90's. My issue is I like to control the temp to achieve a specific conversion, such as a maltier 152-156 or a dryer 146-148. I also would like to do step mashes without decoction, but that is not really what drove me to write this.

I have been doing alot of research on this Infusion mashtun, and have found that MOST people do not preheat them properly, and I am in that category. SO, having that said....before my next brew I am going to attempt a small experiment. Since I still have my coller mash tun, I am going to pour 2 gallons of boiling water into each vessel. let them sit and monitor the temp at 30 min mark. if what I think is going to happen does (they will both drop temps at the same rate, or the coller will be slightly lower at 30 min then the stainless), then the issue I feel is i am not using the mash tun in accordance with the instruction like I should. WHICH STATES: mash tun should be properly pre-heated using 170° water prior to mash in.

Maybe I am just not remembering when I used my cooler that temps dropped also if I didnt pre-heat (thanks to too many DIPA)

I will def get back on here and post what happens.

I think most people either do preheat or strike with enough offset to compensate (beersmith accounts for this when you put the room temp in.... I never preheated my beverage cooler myself but I did doughin at 163 to achieve 151. (brewing indoors)

but if you research it here your not going to find people starting threads to say they do this and have no problems. We both agree theres a lot of people complaining about the infusion tun and temps but most of the complaints I see are that it doesnt HOLD them well over the course of an hr. You even stated this yourself above when stating the temp was good in the tun after doughin?

Some people buy it thinking it will have a performance advantage but the truth is plastic is a far better insulator. The infusion tun wont warp and will hold up much longer has a better slopped bottom and center drain It also looks great but it at the end of the day in a homebrew system it doesnt seem to make beer as constistently as a $30 igloo beverage cooler from what Ive been able to determine from threads and comments and all the people who end up buying rims, herms or the heater kit anyway keep temps. Maybe a neoprene jacket would help but you wont see SS sell those because I believe most people buy these tuns for cosmetic reasons.

The reason I mention all this is for someone considering one of these to be aware of it first. they arent cheap and the cost of one can easily pay for an inkbird pid and rims tube or herms which if what many end up using anyway would be the better choice.

 

[oakbarn]

I do get the temp in any Mash Tun to about 1 degree F above my strike that is calculated for the grain bill and the Desired Mash. I normally add hotter than strike and let it cool to the Strike. I never add grain unless I am at Strike or a couple of degrees high. Easy to cool, hard to heat!