Using Ice to cool down wort?

[woozy]

Okay, my instructions say "Cool the wort as quickly as possible to 70-80 [1]. An ice bath works well if you don't have an immersion chiller."

Well, I figure ... since the wort is a concentrate anyway (about 1/2 the total volume or less) why not just toss a bunch of ice directly into the wort? Not a ten lb block, mind you but maybe three or four ice cube trays. I don't *have* a huge amount of ice in my freezer normally anyway and what little I do have would be more efficient in the near boiling wort than out, I figure. And as the wort is near boil and a few gallons, then a gallon or less of ice won't overly chill it.

But if this is such a good idea then how come no-one else has ever suggested it? If there's a reason *not* to do this then I guess I want to know now. (Yes, experimenting is a good learning experience but I'd rather have good beer than a good learning experience and this early stage.)

Thanks.

[1] Um, dumb question... why cool as quickly as possible? I figure this is to keep the aroma hops from over-cooking. Are there other reasons?

 

[Hackwood]

Less contamination is why we try to cool as fast as possible.

Dropping ice THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY BOILED would be O.K. Ice just made from a freezer icemaker might not be truly clean. Especially from city water as you'll be adding chlorine and other crap that you wouldn't want in your wort. Ice bath O.K., dropping straight into your wort, NOT O.K.

 

[amandabab]

its depends on the ice.
bagged ice people have have pawed though at the grocery store, ice thats been under stuff in your freezer for who knows how long. NO.
refrigerator icemaker ice can have all sorts of things in it.

ice trays that are cleaned and sanitized, put in the freezer maybe the night before brewing. Sure, use it in the wort for cooling.

[1] Um, dumb question... why cool as quickly as possible? I figure this is to keep the aroma hops from over-cooking. Are there other reasons?

dms is still being produced at high temps but not being driven off by boiling and most common bacteria loves the 40-140/150 range. the less time in that range before adding yeast, the less chance for infection.

 

[mysteryshrimp]

A couple of reasons to cool down quick:
It helps clarify the finished product. Quick cooling means better clumping of the big proteins.
The less time you spend in the 70-160 degree zone, the less likely unwanted yeast and bacteria will find your wort. Less chance of infection.

One reason to not chuck ice directly in your wort:
If you aren't sure what's in your ice, you might be adding small amounts of bacteria. The FDA allows a certain amount of cauliform colonies in commercial ice. More chance of infection. What I'd do is boil water, cap it, and chill it in the fridge.

 

[woozy]

Well, that answers that!

No. My ice is not that clean. So I won't do it.

But as for city tap water and chemicals. I'm kind of of the opinion tap water is fine and I am intending to use it anyway. But I'm willing to hear arguments con.

Hmmm, contrary-wise on a practical level just how paranoid can I *be* about sanitation? I figure I can only do my best but it'll be a good five to fifteen minutes of juggling and exposure to air before I can realistically get it it sealed and pitched. Still I won't court disaster with dirty refridgerator ice. So ice *outside* the wort for me.

Thanks guys.

 

[amandabab]

Hmmm, contrary-wise on a practical level just how paranoid can I *be* about sanitation? I figure I can only do my best but it'll be a good five to fifteen minutes of juggling and exposure to air before I can realistically get it it sealed and pitched. Still I won't court disaster with dirty refridgerator ice. So ice *outside* the wort for me.

Thanks guys.

you can't brew in a sterile clean room. You'll do 100 things that will make you say "did that just infect my beer", but if you have a good cleaning/sanitizing regiment and don't get sloppy it will be good enough to give the yeast upper hand over the bacteria.

a spray bottle of sanitizer is your friend.
but you can overboard with the paranoia
[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJocMX7Ex-Y[/ame]

 

[Schol-R-LEA]

While it depends on where you are, tap water is usually fine, for the most part, except for the chlorine (or chloramines, depending on the water treatment scheme used locally). The whole purpose of adding anti-microbial chemicals to water is to reduce contamination; unfortunately, it is just as likely to inhibit your desired yeast as it is to kill off bacteria. Fortunately, your typical carbon filter will remove the chlorine quite well, and if you don't have a filter, you can simply boil the water ahead of time and let it out-gas overnight. I personally use a filter attached to the tap, as it is easy and convenient, but if cost is a factor the boiling method works fine.

Water chemistry becomes more of an issue when you move into all-grain brewing, but most of the chemicals you're concerned with there are ones which are in the water naturally (e.g., carbonates), not added to the water as part of treatment.

 

[dstranger99]

This thread again !!..........lol......(If you lack a wort chiller).....Use 2-3 frozen water jugs (1/2 gal each). Never dump commercial ice into your wort !.........

 

[LowNotes]

Well, that answers that!

No. My ice is not that clean. So I won't do it.

But as for city tap water and chemicals. I'm kind of of the opinion tap water is fine and I am intending to use it anyway. But I'm willing to hear arguments con.

Hmmm, contrary-wise on a practical level just how paranoid can I *be* about sanitation? I figure I can only do my best but it'll be a good five to fifteen minutes of juggling and exposure to air before I can realistically get it it sealed and pitched. Still I won't court disaster with dirty refridgerator ice. So ice *outside* the wort for me.

Thanks guys.

Looks like the "bad stuff can be hiding in stasis in ice" angle has been covered, but I figured I would weigh-in on my take on the question of tap-water and sanitation-paranoia.

I am of the opinion that tap water in most cases is just fine for most brewing. If you get into super-detailed recipes/systems, it might be worth it, but I have yet to use anything other than tap water, and my beers have all turned out damn good if I do say so myself. My first 2 batches were extract, where I added make-up water after the boil straight from the tap, no issues at all. Since then it has been All-Grain for me, and through 15 batches of using nothing but tap water, I again have had no ill-effects. Of course in all-grain you boil the full volume of water, so any Chlorine/chloramines in the water are long-gone by the time I pitch.

Here is some simple info on treated (tap) water. My wife did a lot of graduate work in college in a lab studying the impact of different water treatment methods on various piping materials, so I am lucky to have an expert in the house. That is the source of what I write, and it is from memory, so if I am getting something really wrong and someone else knows more, please feel free to chime in.

Chlorine is the most common disenfectant used in water treatment. It is widely used because it is both good at killing microbes, AND it has a long "residual" which means that the chlorine stays active and will continue killing microbes long after it has left the treatment plant. It does off-gas away eventually, so if you leave it in a container overnight most chlorine should be gone.

Chloramines are becoming fairly widespread, and are in use in my area for sure. It works essentially the same as chlorine, but the by-products of microbes killed by chlorine have been shown to be more carcinogenic that the by-products of microbes killed by chloramines. Often times water treatment systems that use chloramines will need to flush their systems with chlorine treated water, as there are some things chlorine is still best at. This can explain why in some areas there will be 1-2 weeks where your tap water suddenly tastes much more like chlorine.

The exact composition of your water will vary dramatically from region to region. Both the base input water, and the treatment methods used by the local plants determine what the water at your faucet will be like. So, just because someone had good/bad results with tap water in New England, doesn't mean those results will translate 1:1 to someone with tap water in Texas. Luckily my wife was involved in the engineering of a huge water treatment plant in my area, and has given her blessing that our water in our tap is of a very high quality compared to many other locations.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I am lucky. Ice from my icemaker is clean and (so far) safe to use.

 

[Varmintman]

I find it funny that some folks are in utter terror of their water and ice making machines. Yes I understand that some water in parts of the country is loaded with crap and chemicals but many parts are just fine.

To the OP have your water tested and then base your decision on the results of the test. You might be fine like myself and many others or you might need to boil your water and go to different lengths to use the ice. But simply yes you can use ice to cool your wort.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I find it funny that some folks are in utter terror of their water and ice making machines. Yes I understand that some water in parts of the country is loaded with crap and chemicals but many parts are just fine.

To the OP have your water tested and then base your decision on the results of the test. You might be fine like myself and many others or you might need to boil your water and go to different lengths to use the ice. But simply yes you can use ice to cool your wort.

Agreed! I felt that it was worth one batch to find out. (the ice I mean)

My tap water was fantastic for brewing, So I no-rinsed my ice bin and let it fly (that was 2 years ago, I do not sanitize it anymore).

The time and trouble saved are immeasureable.

To the OP Title.

Ice is the BEST wort chiller.(uh oh here it comes)

 

[MaltedBayerl]

I don't want to dilute my wort (all-grain). I have a 25' immersion chiller that doesn't perform as well as I'd like. I think I might get another 10' of copper tubing and make a pre chiller. That's where I think ice would be used best. I'll put the pre chiller in a bucket of ice water and get that temp difference greater between chiller water and wort. Then it can be ice from the wheel well of my car and it won't matter.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I don't want to dilute my wort (all-grain). I have a 25' immersion chiller that doesn't perform as well as I'd like. I think I might get another 10' of copper tubing and make a pre chiller. That's where I think ice would be used best. I'll put the pre chiller in a bucket of ice water and get that temp difference greater between chiller water and wort. Then it can be ice from the wheel well of my car and it won't matter.

That is valid, but I feel that making a 5 gallon recipe and boiling down to 4, topping with a "gallon" of ice is not watering down.

 

[processhead]

Looks like the "bad stuff can be hiding in stasis in ice" angle has been covered, but I figured I would weigh-in on my take on the question of tap-water and sanitation-paranoia.

I am of the opinion that tap water in most cases is just fine for most brewing. If you get into super-detailed recipes/systems, it might be worth it, but I have yet to use anything other than tap water, and my beers have all turned out damn good if I do say so myself. My first 2 batches were extract, where I added make-up water after the boil straight from the tap, no issues at all. Since then it has been All-Grain for me, and through 15 batches of using nothing but tap water, I again have had no ill-effects. Of course in all-grain you boil the full volume of water, so any Chlorine/chloramines in the water are long-gone by the time I pitch.

Here is some simple info on treated (tap) water. My wife did a lot of graduate work in college in a lab studying the impact of different water treatment methods on various piping materials, so I am lucky to have an expert in the house. That is the source of what I write, and it is from memory, so if I am getting something really wrong and someone else knows more, please feel free to chime in.

Chlorine is the most common disenfectant used in water treatment. It is widely used because it is both good at killing microbes, AND it has a long "residual" which means that the chlorine stays active and will continue killing microbes long after it has left the treatment plant. It does off-gas away eventually, so if you leave it in a container overnight most chlorine should be gone.

Chloramines are becoming fairly widespread, and are in use in my area for sure. It works essentially the same as chlorine, but the by-products of microbes killed by chlorine have been shown to be more carcinogenic that the by-products of microbes killed by chloramines. Often times water treatment systems that use chloramines will need to flush their systems with chlorine treated water, as there are some things chlorine is still best at. This can explain why in some areas there will be 1-2 weeks where your tap water suddenly tastes much more like chlorine.

The exact composition of your water will vary dramatically from region to region. Both the base input water, and the treatment methods used by the local plants determine what the water at your faucet will be like. So, just because someone had good/bad results with tap water in New England, doesn't mean those results will translate 1:1 to someone with tap water in Texas. Luckily my wife was involved in the engineering of a huge water treatment plant in my area, and has given her blessing that our water in our tap is of a very high quality compared to many other locations.

Just a few corrections to your assertions above.
Chlorine is an effective and commonly used water treatment primary oxidant and disinfectant.
However it is not considered a long-term stable disinfectant, and it will degrade relatively quickly.

Chloramines are also used as a secondary disinfectant, and are a compound composed of chlorine and ammonia. Chloramines are a very stable disinfectant that degrade more slowly than chlorine. They are commonly used in water distribution systems after primary disinfection with free chlorine.

The only time our water utility flushes water lines with chlorine is if there is a water main break that is suspected of cross contamination of a water main.

+1 on cooling with frozen jugs of water. Less potential for contamination than using ice.

 

[hoppyhoppyhippo]

I'll throw my 2 cents in even though I think it's been explained well above.

I don't throw ice in my wort because I go through so much trouble to make sure my beer won't be contaminated, why trust something I have less control over?

Also Cheezy, you must never have watched Restaurant Impossible, seems 9 times out of 10 one of the nastiest things in a restaurant is the ice maker cause no one thinks to clean it, and mold grows there and because there's no cooking at all involved with it. If you're using it for brewing and it's feasible to clean, you should probably clean it at least once a year.

Again, just my preference, I work so hard to have a clean beer, why ruin all my hard work I've done sanitizing everything and it's grandmother, just to waste it because I want to save maybe 10 minutes after the boil. Throw it on ice, use the time to sanitize your fermenting equipment.

 

[tdhickey]

simple, ice does not belong in beer, ever...

 

[cooldood]

I use ice in the wort all the time and have never had a problem.
I would not use com. ice as stated before.
I make my own ice the day before, after a few trials I know how much ice to put in the fermenter.
I poor the hot wort directly on to the ice. Nothing can cool a wort faster than this method.

 

[cheezydemon3]

simple, ice does not belong in beer, ever...

See below. Knock yourself out if you want to. As I stated, if I get 1 batch contaminated, I will stop. Until then, Ice is so much more efficient than a wort chiller (which can also be contaminated).

I use ice in the wort all the time and have never had a problem.
I would not use com. ice as stated before.
I make my own ice the day before, after a few trials I know how much ice to put in the fermenter.
I poor the hot wort directly on to the ice. Nothing can cool a wort faster than this method.

 

[Peruvian]

I like the idea of ice in a sealed bag that has been dipped in StarSan. I've not tried it, but it is appealing.

 

[cooldood]

If the OP needs top off water he might as well make ice out of the same water. I am assuming he is doing extracts.

Cooling the wort fast means less chance of infection since you can pitch quicker
It also helps with chill haze. It will help the proteins responsible for this to drop out of solution.

 

[APendejo]

Ice bombs made from 2 liter soda bottles, a quick dip in star san then place in your kettle, replace as necessary.


AP

 

[LowNotes]

The frozen bottles/bags sounds like a pretty neat idea, and I agree with those that sya they sanitize the outside, but I was wondering...does the star-san (or whatever you use) freeze on the outside of the container? I know chemical solutions often lower the freezing point of the liquid, but I wasn't sure if this is an issue with sanitizer, as I am assuming they need to be in their liquid state to effectively do the job.

Also, if there was a thick layer of frozen star san I would be more worried of it melting into my wort than just a film of bubbles from a rinse down.

I too have been dissappointed in my immersion chiller, and if I can find the right container I might start doing a 1-2 punch of IC down to low 100's, and then ice bombs from 100-to-60. Anyone ever have a container break on them using this method, or notice a leak/reduced water level inside the bottle?

 

[Schol-R-LEA]

That is valid, but I feel that making a 5 gallon recipe and boiling down to 4, topping with a "gallon" of ice is not watering down.

True, but it is also insufficient to cool the wort to fermentation temperatures. Let's look at the numbers, shall we? I'll use metric values for simplicity, but they correspond roughly to the US volumes in question. (all formulas taken from the Hyperphysics website.)

If you have 4 Kg of ice at 0 deg. C, and 16L of wort at 100 deg. C, then the cooling effect of the ice will be:

Mice * Heat of fusion of water + calories * Mice * (Tfinal - Tice = calories * Mwater * (Twater - Tfinal)

(4000 * 7.97 c/g) + 4000 c/g(Tfinal - 0 deg. C) = 16000 (100 degC - Tfinal)

318800c + (4000c * Tfinal) = 1600000c - (16000 c * Tfinal)

20000c * Tfinal = 1281200c

Tfinal = 1281200c / 20000c = 64.6 deg. C

This is approximately 147.2 deg. F, far too warm still to pitch the yeast. You would need to use 8L (2 gallons) of ice in 12L (3 gallons) of wort to reach 28 deg. C (87.5 deg.F), which is still warmer than you really want but at least won't kill the yeast.

 

[woozy]

I'm a noobie, so yes, I'm doing an all extract.

Berkeley Ca. water seems to be fine. It be hypocritical if I pretended I can tell the difference. Chlorine and yeast? Good point. My bread baking, Batch #0 of beer and the fermentation of batch #1 of beer seems to indicate this isn't going to be an issue.

The ice I *was* planning one using was going to be ice made in me freezer with unsanitized trays and exposed to the air of my freezer for a day or two. I, naively wasn't considering contamination. (A big "Doi!" to me on that).

What I *am* going to do (in a 1/2 hour or so) is use ice from tap water I boiled last night in a metal bowl (the bowl got sanitized when I poured boiling water over it) which I cover with saran wrap (I figure putting the saran wrap over a boil of boiling hot water steam sanitized that one side and I wont let the ice touch the other side). We'll size.

>>>Ice never belongs in beer... period.

Really? Since ice is water + cold and water + cold both belong in the wort, why the heck not?

 

[woozy]

>>>True, but it is also insufficient to cool the wort to fermentation temperatures. Let's look at the numbers, shall we?

Well, It's insufficient to *completely* get to the desired temperature but along with other methods it will *help* get there a little bit faster than room temperature water would, won't it?

 

[cheezydemon3]

The "ice bomb" method leaves me a little wary.

Any plastic heated that hot leaches something, and I would wonder if they might actually melt a tad.

 

[Walter_Whites_Batch]

I do extract, and I adopted this method: night before brew day, I boil a couple gallons of water in my brew kettle. I clean, then sanitze my primary and add the boiled water to it, and seal it up. I put it out on my back deck, where temps can hit -30. The next day, when I am ready to transfer my extract batch into primary, I pull it inside, and pour it on the ice block. After enough experimentation, I can go from boiling to about 65F in around 30 seconds. In the summer, I use my chest freezer. Simple, easy.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I do extract, and I adopted this method: night before brew day, I boil a couple gallons of water in my brew kettle. I clean, then sanitze my primary and add the boiled water to it, and seal it up. I put it out on my back deck, where temps can hit -30. The next day, when I am ready to transfer my extract batch into primary, I pull it inside, and pour it on the ice block. After enough experimentation, I can go from boiling to about 65F in around 30 seconds. In the summer, I use my chest freezer. Simple, easy.

Sounds elegant. Problem is air is being sucked in one way or the other....although ice takes up more room.....still, taking in air, possibly from the outside.

 

[Walter_Whites_Batch]

Sounds elegant. Problem is air is being sucked in one way or the other....although ice takes up more room.....still, taking in air, possibly from the outside.

I've often wondered if the freezing makes the seal on the bucket brittle, but I've never had an infection. I use a lid that has no airlock for the freeze.

 

[woozy]

Um, so those who take the beer outside to cool... do you only brew in winter? Anyway, not really an option to us coastal Californians.

Walter Whites Batch, was that a *negative* 30?

 

[cheezydemon3]

I've often wondered if the freezing makes the seal on the bucket brittle, but I've never had an infection. I use a lid that has no airlock for the freeze.

Is there a whoosh of air entering the fermenter when you open it? (in which case inside air is entering) or if there isn't a whoosh, then outside air is getting in. Evidently not a problem either way if you have had no issues.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

As to the OP...I doubt there is a quicker way to cool wort down that to add about 1 part water, 2 parts ice and about 7 or 8 TB of plain ol' table salt (stir well). This dramatically makes the ice water colder.
I can cool a boiling pot to 70 degrees in less than 10 minutes.
Cheers.

 

[Schol-R-LEA]

I have to disagree with this assertion, as the Blichmann Therminator plate chiller can (with source water at 58 deg. F or below) cool from boiling to 68 deg. F at a rate of two gallons per minute (according to Blichmann's technical specs). A less expensive plate chiller such as a 10-plate Shirron can generally cool 5 gallons from boiling to 68 deg. F in about eight minutes (again, with sufficiently cool counterflow water).

True, plate chillers are quite expensive - even a cheap one is about US$100 - and requires considerable work to keep clean and sanitized, but they do work very quickly.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I have to disagree with this assertion, as the Blichmann Therminator plate chiller can (with source water at 58 deg. F or below) cool from boiling to 68 deg. F at a rate of two gallons per minute (according to Blichmann's technical specs). A less expensive plate chiller such as a 10-plate Shirron can generally cool 5 gallons from boiling to 68 deg. F in about eight minutes (again, with sufficiently cool counterflow water).

True, plate chillers are quite expensive - even a cheap one is about US$100 - and requires considerable work to keep clean and sanitized, but they do work very quickly.

I would put 2 gallons of ice cubes up against that. I'd say 1 minute to cool to 70.(of course you are chilling 3 gallons, your plate is bad ass, I am not questioning that)

 

[Walter_Whites_Batch]

Um, so those who take the beer outside to cool... do you only brew in winter? Anyway, not really an option to us coastal Californians.

Walter Whites Batch, was that a *negative* 30?

yeah, I'm in Canada. but that is -30 Celsius, around a balmy -22F...

I do brew in the summer here too, but that is when I put my 2 gallons of boiled water in my big chest freezer in the basement overnight. It has the same effect.

To answer the other question, I only open it when I am about to pour the 3 gallons of boiling wort into it. I've never listened for anything at that stage, other than the cracking sound the ice makes when it gets hit with the boiling liquid. In my experience, this brings the temp down to pitching range very quickly.

 

[YogiCanucks]

I've been kicking around the idea of freezing a couple bottles of purified bottled water in the freezer the night before. Then pulling them out, cutting away the bottle and tossing in the frozen ice into the wort.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I've been kicking around the idea of freezing a couple bottles of purified bottled water in the freezer the night before. Then pulling them out, cutting away the bottle and tossing in the frozen ice into the wort.

Ice cubes would be more efficient.

The quicker it melts the more efficient the cooling.

 

[Radagascar]

I'm new to homebrewing, but what I tried for my last batch is freezing a gallon of store bought drinking water 1-2 hours before adding the yeast and pouring it in the wort to cool it. Seemed to work alright and I'm *assuming* the store bought drinking water is pure enough to add to the wort without problems.

 

[Brew-Dog]

For extract brewing, what about sanitizing some plastic tupperware (sandwich size), filling them 3/4 full with the water you intend to use for topping up (in my case brita water from tap) and freezing them over night. Then when you have to chill and top up the wort, just open the tupperware and toss the ice blocks in to cool it?

Are there problems with this method? It's the same water you'd use to top up, the inside of the container is sterilized and water isn't exposed to the outside until you toss it in the wort.