US West Coast Ale Yeast M44

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
So has anyone used this yeast before? I'm trying to figure out the optimal fermentation temp with this. I'm going to use it on a Pliny clone. They say its similar to Rogues Pacman yeast so I'm thinking of fermenting @ 60* F. Would like to get some insight on this yeast.
 

Hello

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
11,420
Reaction score
3,399
Location
Raleigh
I did an IPA and fermented at 65. It was at about 60 at first and didn't seem to want to take off. YMMV
 

816North

Active Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
25
Reaction score
2
Location
Kansas City
So has anyone used this yeast before? I'm trying to figure out the optimal fermentation temp with this. I'm going to use it on a Pliny clone. They say its similar to Rogues Pacman yeast so I'm thinking of fermenting @ 60* F. Would like to get some insight on this yeast.
Who is "they?" The manufacturer with whom I spoke said it is not Pacman, but instead something else. Regardless, it is slow to start, needs additional oxygen preferably in the form of pure o2, and has a reasonably clean flavor. You will need at least two packs of dried yeast for an IIPA.

If you want to clone Pliny, use 1056 / US-05 since that's the exact yeast they use.
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Who is "they?" The manufacturer with whom I spoke said it is not Pacman, but instead something else. Regardless, it is slow to start, needs additional oxygen preferably in the form of pure o2, and has a reasonably clean flavor. You will need at least two packs of dried yeast for an IIPA.

If you want to clone Pliny, use 1056 / US-05 since that's the exact yeast they use.
"They" is pretty much every site that sells this yeast has in the description that its similar to Rogues Pacman yeast.

Not concerned with using 05 or 1056, and i want to try out new yeasts which is why i got this one. not a fan of 05 anyways. id use wlp001 over it.

I'm aware of pitching rates and all that. I'm just trying to find out the optimal fermenting temp for this yeast.
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
59 - 74 F is the listed temperature range.
I am aware of the range. That doesnt tell me the optimal temp. like 05 and other chico strains like it 65-68 as optimal temp. Notty is great at very low 60s. so yeah while the range is a good starting point, it doesn't tell me whats the best temp within that range.
 

816North

Active Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
25
Reaction score
2
Location
Kansas City
I am aware of the range. That doesnt tell me the optimal temp. like 05 and other chico strains like it 65-68 as optimal temp. Notty is great at very low 60s. so yeah while the range is a good starting point, it doesn't tell me whats the best temp within that range.
What is optimal? It is the temp that works best in your situation. How is that determined? By making a beer and adjusting the temp as needed in subsequent batches. It's irrelevant if I like estery beer and made it at 74F but you want clean and neutral. It's irrelevant if I made a 1.040 beer fermented at 68F when you're making a 1.090 beer.

Start with the range given by the manufacturer and try a batch.
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
If a yeast is said to be clean and neutral then that's the optimal outcome of that given yeast. That's the way i see it.

I'm not here to argue the term "optimal" with you. And you obviously didnt use this yeast before so have no experience with it to contribute. I don't need to be told to experiment with the temp range of this yeast when there are probably many others that have used it before and can provide some insight as to what to expect.

Seriously though you only came into my thread to argue with me over dumb sht. "who is "they?" "what is optimal?". :rolleyes:
 

NZLunchie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
353
Reaction score
30
Location
Palmerston North
If you're talking about Mangrove Jacks M44, its become my house yeast. I have had nothing but good results using it.

I brewed the Centennial Blonde from BM and put in 2 re-hydrated packs, oxygenated with a magic wand and within 3 days had a blow out. That was at a controlled temperature of 20 degrees C or 68 degrees F. Finished fermenting in 5 days. Crashed for 3 and now its in the keg.
 
  • Like
Reactions: j1n
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Thanks for the info Lunchie, much appreciated.

You say its your house yeast. Do you wash and harvest the yeast after each brew? Does this yeast really brighten the hop bitterness and flavor like it says it does?
 

Hello

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
11,420
Reaction score
3,399
Location
Raleigh
"They" is pretty much every site that sells this yeast has in the description that its similar to Rogues Pacman yeast.

Not concerned with using 05 or 1056, and i want to try out new yeasts which is why i got this one. not a fan of 05 anyways. id use wlp001 over it.

I'm aware of pitching rates and all that. I'm just trying to find out the optimal fermenting temp for this yeast.
WLP001 is said to be liquid US-05. Some may say US-05 and WLP001 have distinctly different tastes and others disagree. YMMV. I've yet to test that theory but if I am using 001 then US-05 is a substitute in my eyes if dry is preferred.

Not to argue who identifies this as similar to pac man but Rebelbrewer.com is the only site I've found thus far to make such a claim. Midwest, Northern, Williams, my LHBS, Mangrove Jack's site and AIH.com do not seem to make such claims. For that, I would say that "they" aren't correct in identifying this as similar to pac man unless the intent was to say that pac man is a nice yeast that cleans up well and leads to bright flavors in IPAs. If that is the reason for the comparison then I may be able to get on board with that.

My recommendation is to try it. Having used it already i can see myself using it again. For purposes of being able to say that I used that and prefer it over something else in an IPA though, my next IPA will use another yeast like I mention below. I also wanted a yeast for my next IPA that was identified as leaning towards a fruity/citrus flavor which is not what I got from M44.

I am aware of the range. That doesnt tell me the optimal temp. like 05 and other chico strains like it 65-68 as optimal temp. Notty is great at very low 60s. so yeah while the range is a good starting point, it doesn't tell me whats the best temp within that range.
Well since you overlooked my comment, I want to write it again. 60 for me was too low. 65F worked better. I oxygenated for 30 seconds with O2 and found that at 60, the beer did not take off as intended. I was concerned and bumped the heat up to 65F 2 days after brew day. It took off. It took a long time to fully ferment and flocculate in my opinion. It looked like mud nearly 2 weeks in and I was thinking my first IPA was a dumper. It turned out clean and "bright" but dark in color due to high boil off which ultimately caramelized the crystal malt. That is not a product of this yeast of course. I think "bright" can be a misnomer if your hops aren't necessarily bright. If that makes sense. If they're grassy hops then I'm not sure bright is a good description. It is unfair to blame the yeast though. This is just a yeast that we should all try and test, IMO.

It being my first IPA, my second one is planned in 3 weeks with a different yeast, I cannot attest to it being cleaner and brighter than some others. In fact, this is pretty new to the market and my LHBS is pushing it (they do not identify it as "similar to pac man"). I find data to be scarce even from the source of the yeast so best that can be done is have people discuss in threads like these so we can all learn.


Report back after you brew and finish your beer. I am very curious about this yeast as well as others from Mangrove Jack. I've used another and it was okay. It was used in a wheat beer but the flavor is overshadowed by a lousy fruit extract that I used. :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: j1n
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Thanks Hello. Sorry i got a little worked up from that other guys post so i forgot to reply to yours. I appreciate the info. I will ferment @ around 65 and let you know how it goes.

btw I have gotten good results with both US-05 and wlp001. i think they taste different though and prefer wlp001.
 

Hello

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
11,420
Reaction score
3,399
Location
Raleigh
I should do a split batch with US 05 and WLP001 just to see if I notice myself.
I understand about getting worked up but hopefully you find 65F to be an ideal temp. I too am not sure if ideal temps for the yeast would change based on my recipe. It's an IPA, I technically or believe I want to showcase the hop flavor and not the yeast flavor so if say 68F starts to breach into an area of esters, then I would say that was not ideal. That is the problem though, I don't think enough people have used this to know. Another possible experiment I would suppose. :)
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Yeah, your right about not many people using this yeast. Its only been on the market for a few years and its more expensive than other dry yeasts. I'm glad you got good results with 65F since i plan on brewing another batch the same day with a different yeast strain that needs to be in the mid 60s as well.

i havent done any testing with the two yeasts. I may be wrong about the two tasting different since i used them on different beers. i have a couple packets of 05 still in my fridge. ill probably end up using it eventually. i bought it a while back as a back up in case something happened and i needed something to ferment with. this was after i had ruined a starter by dropping the vile of yeast i was going to pitch into it. i didnt end up brewing that weekend anyways so it didnt matter.
 

Conestoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
84
Reaction score
28
Location
Quakertown
Today, I'm packaging an IPA that was fermented with this yeast (rehydrated, and did typical 66F for first few days. Upped to 70 to finish). I usually do US-05 for this recipe, but my LHBS was out. I figured it was a great time to give M44 a whirl.

I also had a slow start (36 hrs or so), but it finished in US-05 time. The krausen lingered a bit more, so I had to push my dry hopping forward 2-3 more days. Not too bad.

So far I'm pretty happy with it.

The beer tasted the same coming out of primary, but it was much, much clearer. It's nice to get S04 level flocculation in a clean ale yeast.

Will update in a few weeks to give final thoughts on flavor/aromas.
 
  • Like
Reactions: j1n

816North

Active Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
25
Reaction score
2
Location
Kansas City
If a yeast is said to be clean and neutral then that's the optimal outcome of that given yeast. That's the way i see it.

I'm not here to argue the term "optimal" with you. And you obviously didnt use this yeast before so have no experience with it to contribute. I don't need to be told to experiment with the temp range of this yeast when there are probably many others that have used it before and can provide some insight as to what to expect.

Seriously though you only came into my thread to argue with me over dumb sht. "who is "they?" "what is optimal?". :rolleyes:
I have used it before and my experience was articulated in the very post you replied, though I am sorry to not have listed every beer I have ever made to established some beer street cred. However, in my situation, I didn't need handholding for 24 posts on a thread to make a decision about a yeast pitching temp when it's clearly listed on the website, on the pack, in a multitude of other threads on this yeast, and on about three dozen other blogs and websites.

The point is you have to be able to make a decision here. What worked for someone else won't work for everyone.
 

NZLunchie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
353
Reaction score
30
Location
Palmerston North
Thanks for the info Lunchie, much appreciated.

You say its your house yeast. Do you wash and harvest the yeast after each brew? Does this yeast really brighten the hop bitterness and flavor like it says it does?
No, I don't harvest. Have the gear to but I'm to lazy 😁

Yeah I'd say it does brighten up the hops. I guess the only real way to find out is to use it. I've always had bright beers at the end, stupidly clear with just kettle finnings. It's a food yeast, have a go 😊
 

Pkrd

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Dec 27, 2012
Messages
2,830
Reaction score
3,023
Location
New Zealand
I've used it a bit. Ferment at 18C. No complaints. Currently got Yoopers fizzy yellow ready to bottle. 1.056 to 1.009. That's rinsed from a black IPA.
Regarding reusing M44 mangrove say not to. The internet rumor mill suggests its not a single strain so it will change from generation to generation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: j1n
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Hmmm that's very interesting.
 

Conestoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
84
Reaction score
28
Location
Quakertown
Today, I'm packaging an IPA that was fermented with this yeast (rehydrated, and did typical 66F for first few days. Upped to 70 to finish). I usually do US-05 for this recipe, but my LHBS was out. I figured it was a great time to give M44 a whirl.

I also had a slow start (36 hrs or so), but it finished in US-05 time. The krausen lingered a bit more, so I had to push my dry hopping forward 2-3 more days. Not too bad.

So far I'm pretty happy with it.

The beer tasted the same coming out of primary, but it was much, much clearer. It's nice to get S04 level flocculation in a clean ale yeast.

Will update in a few weeks to give final thoughts on flavor/aromas.
Update

I'm going to say both US-05 and M44 have their pros and cons. The M44 doesn't offer enough extra to justify the price for me.

With the added lag time, and higher krausen ... the only benefit I really see is the flocculation. I'm fermenting a session IPA with US05 and M44 side by side right now, so the extra krausen height and initial lag time has repeated.

I suggest fermcap if your fermenters are low on head space. Definitely use blow off for primary no matter what.

Also MJ yeasts are 10g packs relative to 11.5.

I'll be going back to US-05, or maybe try something else next. Not impressed enough for me to stick around. If it was cheaper than US-05 I would definitely consider this for a house yeast, the flavors/aromas are very close to US-05.

If I have more input on the flavors I'll update again, as the bottled beer will obviously change over the coming weeks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: j1n
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Thanks for the update. I didn't use the m44 yeast yet. I had some liquid yeast that i needed to use before it got too old. I'm going to use it on my next batch which should be either a pale ale or an amber ale. Gonna brew it this weekend.

I used the San Diego Super Yeast WLP090 on the IPA i was planning with the m44. I have to say im pretty impressed by WLP090. If this yeast is clean as wlp001 then it might be my go to yeast.
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
So i am using this on a Pale ale i made on Sunday. Everyone is right about this yeast being a slow starter. Its been 36 hours and still no sign of fermentation. ive never had a yeast take off this slowly.

i rehydrate it and pitched it at 65F.
 

Conestoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
84
Reaction score
28
Location
Quakertown
The last batch I mentioned(well half of it) got infected. I'll let you guess which fermenter/yeast it was?

I can't say definitively that the lag time caused it, but I'm never using this yeast again. Not worth it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: j1n
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Wow! that sucks. Yeah, the lag time is really making me not like this yeast at all. The last two batches i did with WLP090 and Wyeast 1968. the WLP090 took off within 2 hours and the 1968 took off in 6 hours. im guessing its gonna be 48 hours for this yeast to show its fermenting the wort.

Can you clarify what you mean by only half got infected?
 

Conestoga

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
84
Reaction score
28
Location
Quakertown
Wow! that sucks. Yeah, the lag time is really making me not like this yeast at all. The last two batches i did with WLP090 and Wyeast 1968. the WLP090 took off within 2 hours and the 1968 took off in 6 hours. im guessing its gonna be 48 hours for this yeast to show its fermenting the wort.

Can you clarify what you mean by only half got infected?
I do 12 gallon batches, and split between two fermenters. I used M44 in one, and US05 in the other.

Discovered the infection last night just before transferring into secondaries.
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
That makes sense. I hope mine takes off soon. i can not afford an infection since this batch will be for a beach house vacation in 3 weeks and everyone is expecting me to bring my beer.
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
So just updating this thread. Took a gravity reading of the pale ale and its @ 1.015. I dont think its gonna go any lower (mashed @ 154). added 1.5oz of Simco for dry hopping.

There wasnt that much krausen, i expected more for a top crop strain. i didnt even need a blow off tube. fermented @ 66. Sample tasted very good. i am pleased with the clean flavor of the yeast but prob will never use again due to the long lag time and what seemed to be a very long fermentation.
 

fuhmon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
95
Reaction score
6
Location
Spokane
first time using M44
just pitched 2 sachete's (no rehydrate) of it this morning to a 1.080 iipa wort @ 62F.
mashed at 150 for 90 minutes. i'll repost with results after primary ferment finishes pre dry hop.

i've had a few beers from some club members who used this yeast. pretty clean beers and none of that us-05 apricot. for some members its become their west coast yeast go to.

i've been partial to WY1056 for about a year now. WLP001 for 3 years before that so we will see how this goes...
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Hey Fuhmon, thanks for contributing to the m44 thread. post how long your lag time is with this yeast. after i got the beer cold and carbed i got a similar taste i get with us-05 in the beer. Thats the reason i dont use us-05 and another reason why i wont use m44.

I prefer using the San Deigo Super strain WLP090 as my go to yeast for most ales. its very fast and very clean. just did an amber ale with it on Saturday and it took off very fast and looks to be about done, just going to let it gas off more co2 before i dry hop.
 

fuhmon

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
95
Reaction score
6
Location
Spokane
24 hours in 63F no sign of a krauzen at all. i gave it about a 30 second aeration. took a sample gravity and it was about 1.077. so maybe i shouldnt have aerated it but i'm not worried.
34 hours in 64F i had about a 2 inch krauzen.

Update:
this was kegged yesterday.
Brew Day 8/26
Kegged 9/14
OG 1.079
FG 1.011
After 4 days of 64f ferment this was ramped 1 degree per day to 70f and held till 9/14 and then kegged.

Fermenter smelled boozy. beer was still packed with yeast. mangroves site says this strain is High flocculance...
gravity sample tasted decent though and all the belma and centennial that were at 30 and 10minute are shining through.

i might try this yeast again.
I brewed a fresh hop IPA yesterday with homegrown hops and i haven't prepped a starter for it so M44 might get another shot tonight. I may start ferment at 66 with 1 satchet this time instead of 2 sachettes at 62F
 

nextgenxx

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
368
Reaction score
107
Location
Portland
Pitched m44 yeast this last Sunday at 4pm and still no active fermentation. Something like 40 hours so far....Man this yeast sucks. Been keeping the beer at 66-67 degrees. I pitched us-05 on the other split and it has been going steady for 30hours.. All I can see so far is some stuff starting to clump at the top. Should I add another yeast on top to get this thing going or wait a little more?
ImageUploadedByHome Brew1415722794.210912.jpg
 
OP
j1n

j1n

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Messages
2,147
Reaction score
1,029
Location
Northern
Pitched m44 yeast this last Sunday at 4pm and still no active fermentation. Something like 40 hours so far....Man this yeast sucks. Been keeping the beer at 66-67 degrees. I pitched us-05 on the other split and it has been going steady for 30hours.. All I can see so far is some stuff starting to clump at the top. Should I add another yeast on top to get this thing going or wait a little more?
View attachment 235241
Id pitch some US05 if you have some on hand. M44 yeast is very slow. i use the same process for rehydration and all for dry yeasts and with us05 and notty i have fermentation within 24 hours max. this yeast got the same process and it took 48 hours. will never use again.
 

nextgenxx

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
368
Reaction score
107
Location
Portland
Thanks, didn't have any US05 on hand but did have some WLP001 available. Happily to report back a steady fermentation going on now. Never will use m44 again.
 

Mohanz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
96
Reaction score
22
Location
Wellington
Super old thread, but thought id post my experiences in case it helps someone trawling the interwebs.

M44 is now my go to yeast for Pales and IPAs. A few things from experience over the past 18months:

1. It is a slow starter when pitched at 18C and has significant lag time. I also found that in low gravity beers (< 1.045) it tends to be a slow ferment with minimum krausen - but still ferments clean and low.
2. In high gravity beers (>1.055-1.075) it goes ballistic, giant krausen, super aggressive, ferments clean and doesn't produce many esters. Usually active airlock and Krausen in <12hrs
4. Oxygenate your wort just before pitching re-hydrated packet for best results and less lag (i know kind of a 'duh'' statement.)
3. Optimum fermentation is 20C with a rise to 21C after 4 days.

hope it helps.
 

Radiation-Joe

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
8
Reaction score
2
Location
Allentown
Here's another revival of the thread.

Pitched M44 dry into a 1.048 gravity rye APA at 68 degrees Fahrenheit. Wort was oxygenated my normal way of using an electric paint stirrer for 30 seconds. Took off 18 hours later. I've moved the bucket to my basement where I hope to keep the fermentation temp closer to the 63 - 65 degree range. First time using this yeast. Will update once kegged.

Extract recipe:
3.0 lb dry golden malt
3.3 lb liquid light malt
0.5 lb. Carapils 1.8L
0.5 lb. Crystal 40L
1.0 lb. Weyermann CaraRye 60L
60 minute boil
1 oz Chinook 45 min
1 oz Amarillo 10 min
1 oz Cascade 5 min
1 oz Citra 180 degree hopback 15 min
1 oz Cascade dry hop in keg (might change to 0.5 oz)
 

krispn

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
21
Reaction score
6
Big zombie revival!

Used this in an APA SG of 1.058 pitched dry onto 20c (68f) wort and had airlock activity within 12 hours and is vigorously bubbling away.

Just saw the above tip to start at 20c (68f) and increase to 21c (69/70) after four days which would have been my plan anyway.

The recipe was an APA aiming for 40-50 IBU's so adjust you hops to match.

Malts
46% Pilsner Malt
46%Best Pale Malt
5% Carapils
3% Melanoidin
60 min at 65c (149f) 10 min mashout

Hop Additions
30 min - Centennial 10g (6.7IBU)
10 min - Citra 10g Simcoe 15g (5 IBU's & 7 IBU's)
5min - Citra & Mosaic 15g each (4IBU's & 4IBU's
Hop Stand for 15min - Citra & Mosaic 20g each (6.8 IBU's & 6.8 IBU's)

M44 pitched dry onto 20c (68f) wort.

Smells great and I'm hoping for a crisp, fruity easy drinker!
 
Top