US-05 off flavors.

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Theis

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I've been using US-05 more and more recently since the price of Danstar Nottingham recently tripled due to their "upgraded packaging". Anyway, I've been noticing a subtle clove-like aftertaste to my lightly hopped blonde and pale ales that I have brewed with this yeast over the past 2 months. The strongest taste came from a batch fermented at about 68 degrees so subsequent batches have been fermented at 60-62 with a bit of improvement but I can still notice the taste. Does anyone else notice this when using this yeast.
Thanks.
 

Dunerunner

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Just did a hopped up wheat and an IPA with US-05. Granted the hops probably hide and subtile clove-like aftertaste, but I haven't noticed any issues and use US-05 almost exclusively.
 
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Theis

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Yeah I don't notice it either when I either dry hop or get over 30 IBUS. But with less hoppy beers at less than 30 IBUs, the flavor seems to come through for me. My wife and her family can't taste it which is great because at least I don't have to throw it out.
 

Dunerunner

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So, what less hoppy brews are you using a Chico Ale yeast strain in? No big deal, let me know if you are judging a competition I'm entered into, though!! :D
 

r2eng

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US-05 is the cleanest yeast I have ever used. I use it for my blonde ale, and there aren't any odd clove-ish tastes.

Not doubting you at all, just something I have never tasted. Is there something in your recipe that may bring out this flavor in the yeast? I have found some grains really bring out odd flavors in lager yeasts (like crystal).
 

Revvy

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I agree with r2eng, o5 is my go to yeast for 90 percent of my ales, never had clove issues. I would look into things like phenols.

Read this.

Phenols are NOT associated with 05 under normal circumstances.
 

Snotpoodle

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The cloves are more than likely ferulic acid formed in your mash. If you are mashing low, or giving it a rest at low temps, you could be forming ferulic acid, which tastes like cloves. This normally happens around 118 - 122F.
 

trent

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Always pitch less than 65 and ferment at 60. Clean clean clean. 05 was my goto yeast, but now I'm on white labs SDSY for my house yeast.
 

MaltnHops

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I use 05 almost exclusively and I have never had any off flavors. I'd look at temps.
 

RyanN

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I've been noticing some off flavors using this yeast as well. I have a hard time describing the flavor but I have noticed the same flavor in things like Bell's Winter White Ale (tastes Belgian to me??). I assumed it was from higher fermenting temps so I've been fermenting in a swamp cooler. I have not yet bottled or tasted any of the beers fermented in the swamp cooler....will post back when I do. I also brewed a beer and used Bell's yeast cultured from a few bottles of Two Hearted during this time and did not notice the off flavor.
 

rockfish42

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s-05 can throw peach esters at low temps, I've never heard of a 4-vinyl-guiacol showing up though.
 

KrisPaulk77

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I just got my score sheets back from a homebrew contest held today, and my pale ale fermented with US05 was marked by one judge as "spicy, earthy clove, weizen smell".
I was kind of shocked actually. I hadn't noticed it before.
 
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Theis

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Looking back through my notes, I did a 10 gallon split batch of centennial blonde, fermented both with Us-05 at 64 degrees for 14 days, dry hopped one for 7 days and bottled with corn sugar. The other I primed with cane sugar after the 14 days in primary. I'm getting a strong clove flavor from the batch that was primed with cane sugar. Not sure if it was the yeast or the sugar but whew it's belgian time! The 5 gallons primed with corn sugar tastes very neutral with no hint of clove.
 

samc

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No off flavors for me. Never tasted the peach that some complain about. I suspect if we start hearing a lot about cloves then either it is the power of suggestion or Fermentis has a QC problem going on. I think it more likely a non yeast issue, but you never know.
 

acuenca

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Ditto on the no off flavors... 3 batches with S-05 (IPA, Brown, and ESB)... and even green no off flavors... oldest batch with (~2 months in bottles) no hint of clove...neutral.
 

KrisPaulk77

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I personnaly didn't notice cloves when I sampled my beer. I did ferment at room temp, so I expected some esters, but the judges clove comment caught me off guard. US05 is one of my go-to yeasts.
 

Monstar

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I use it all the time and NEVER get off flavors. Maybe a bad packet?
 

jfr1111

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I have to admit, the american wheat I brewed in September does have some "clove", or more appropriately coriander like taste, at least more than I like. It was fermented with US-05 and the temperatures didn't go beyond 66-68F (that's beer temp, not ambiant, before anyone asks). I remember another wheat beer that I fermented with the same strain also exhibiting the same thing. Maybe I just don't like wheat in big proportions in beer. I'm starting to suspect it's the case: never been a fan of Hoegarden.

I have hard water with high alkalinity though, so that might also be an explanation. It can't really be sanitation/chlorine because I've followed the same regimen as always and have brewed delicate beers without these flaws, but with different strains, notably S-04. It's always a possibility though.
 

JonK331

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So, what less hoppy brews are you using a Chico Ale yeast strain in? No big deal, let me know if you are judging a competition I'm entered into, though!! :D
Huh??? Cal Ale WLP-01, American Ale Wyeast-1056, and Safale-05 do not HAVE to be used in hoppy beers. They will work in ANY ale where a clean profile is desired. They can even be used to make Kolsch which is very low IBUs.
 

waldoar15

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The only time I ever had 05 throw cloves was when I brewed during the heat of the summer, went away for a weekend and the wife forgot to swap out the ice bottles in the swamp cooler.

She does stuff like that. Might as well tell the dog. :p

I let that beer sit a few weeks and it went away.
 

nilo

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I have similar problems with S05, but I think it taste phenolic.
Have not brew a lot with S05 but out of 3 times, two came out with phenols (that I can tell).
First and last recipes that had the off flavor were a light ale with Pilsen malt, Vienna and flaked rice.
Second recipe that was perfectly fine was a cream ale.
All were re-hydrated and pitched to oxigenated wort at 70, then set to 67-68 for fermentation (fermentation chamber) once Krausen formed (usually 12h).
Last brew that is actually about to be bottled took more than 36h to start fermentation, what may tell something about the viability of the yeast.
Looks to me that bad yeast is to blame. Thoughts?
 

android

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They can even be used to make Kolsch which is very low IBUs.
isn't a kolsch a kolsch because you use kolsch yeast? if you mean you can make a very light, somewhat lager-like beer with those yeasts you mentioned, then i agree with you, but i think a kolsch is a bit different.

i've never gotten the clove smell/taste with us-05, but have definitely gotten the peachy ester from fermenting it too low. i haven't used 05 in a while, but might do some tests with it over the winter.
 

JonK331

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isn't a kolsch a kolsch because you use kolsch yeast? if you mean you can make a very light, somewhat lager-like beer with those yeasts you mentioned, then i agree with you, but i think a kolsch is a bit different.

i've never gotten the clove smell/taste with us-05, but have definitely gotten the peachy ester from fermenting it too low. i haven't used 05 in a while, but might do some tests with it over the winter.
Yes, that's what I meant. My point was to show that these Cal/American strains have more uses than just in hoppy beers.
 

Teacher

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No weird flavors for me, either. I've never experienced anything clove-like with US-05 under any conditions, and I don't use temp controls (though I do have a fairly cool basement).
 

nilo

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I just wanted to bring this issue up again to give some feedback on how I fixed my problem with S05 giving me off flavors, thought to be phenolic.
When I went back to my records I founf that the issue started a year ago and the problem is, it was not conssistent. Some batches were fine, some were screwed up, and I could not find anything to blame.
Later, the problem also happened with S04 and after many attempts to indetify the problem I was giving up when I asked Wayne1 from this forum if he could give me some ideas. I describe my process to him and this was his reply:
"BINGO! You supposed NOT to use pure oxygen for aeration prior to pitch dry yeasts, but only with liquid yeast"

I have been brewing for a couple years and started with liquid yeast, using pure oxygen on stone for 3min and have never seen this recommendation out there.

Bottom line to this, I stoped using oxygen on my wort (no aeration at all) and the beers are fantastic, with S05 or S04. I now don't even re-hydrate the yeast and have not seen any impact in leg time or anything.
Thank you Wayne1 for saving my beer:)
 

rockfish42

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I have been brewing for a couple years and started with liquid yeast, using pure oxygen on stone for 3min and have never seen this recommendation out there.
3 minutes of pure O2 is way more than you need to use, I've had good success with s-05 with just 60 seconds of oxygen.
 
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Theis

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I use the old fashioned shake method. Last 11 batches with US-05 have been great- haven't noticed the off flavor. Last summer I definitely had a run of clove tinged beers with US-05- no problems since. I ended up changing out all my transfer tubing which may have helped or it just could have been a couple bad packets. I any case, I am really happy with the results from this yeast, can't beat it for the price.
 

neovox

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I love knowing that so many folks here use US-05. I thought I was in the minority using this for the majority of my brews. Seems many of the people I know look down on dry yeast regardless of what it is.
 

scottland

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US05, oh boy, let's talk.

I use this yeast as my house yeast, and my best friend does as well. Probably 80-100 batches between us have been brewed with 05. I'll go through my standard procedure first, then we'll talk about when I deviate. Normally I chill to 60-62F. Rehydrate in 90-100F water, and ferment at 62F until it slows down. Once fermentation slows, I'll raise the temp over a couple days up to 68-70 until activity stops. Beers brewed as such are super clean, and attenuate very well. Between the cool pitching temp, and cool fermenting temp, it does work a little slowly, but the warmer temps near the end of fermentation help the yeast attenuate.

-I've found if I pitch over 70, I get some slight phenols.
-I've found if I pitch over 70, and don't immediately chill the wort down to <68*, I get phenols
-If the temperature fluctuates more than 3-4* on a daily basis I get some phenols

Aside from that, it's a rock solid yeast. It's definitely slower to flocculate than WLP001/1056, but I also find it a little bit more attenuative, so that makes sense. I don't pick up the peach ester others get. Since I have a fermentation fridge, this yeast is a no-brainier. I have a 1* window set in my temp controller, so it's just point and shoot with this yeast. It's a great yeast. I've had three beers score in the 40s in competitions using it (44 being the highest.)

Are your temps swinging thought the day? Are you pitching warm?
 
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Theis

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Thinking it over, I was brewing in the summer with my counterflow so I was pitching around 76 then chilling to 64 in my fermentation chamber- haven't noticed the flavor since cooling water temps have dropped. I'll make sure to recirculate until wort temp is below 70 in the future and see what happens.

Thanks for the info scottland.
 

lagavulin

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I have been brewing for a couple years and started with liquid yeast, using pure oxygen on stone for 3min and have never seen this recommendation out there.

3 minutes of pure O2 is way more than you need to use, I've had good success with s-05 with just 60 seconds of oxygen.

I also have not been brewing long, but I oxygenate all my wort with pure O2 and never worry about leaving it on for too long. I have an inline setup post chiller, I set my concentrator for 1 LPM, turn it on and turn it off when I get around to it -


Two Quotes FWIW:


"The uptake of oxygen happens rapidly, with the yeast usually depleting wort oxygen levels within 30 minutes of inoculation." ~ White and Zainasheff


"Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well." ~ Wyeast


Either way -- I figure there is little concern of over aerating. Nothing I can taste anyway.
 

Wayne1

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Thank you Wayne1 for saving my beer
You are welcome Nilo ;)

"The uptake of oxygen happens rapidly, with the yeast usually depleting wort oxygen levels within 30 minutes of inoculation." ~ White and Zainasheff


"Over-oxygenation is generally not a concern as the yeast will use all available oxygen within 3 to 9 hours of pitching and oxygen will come out of solution during that time as well." ~ Wyeast


Either way -- I figure there is little concern of over aerating. Nothing I can taste anyway.
Those quotes refer to liquid yeast, NOT dry yeast. There IS a difference.

Dry yeast right out of the packet has NO need for extra O2 and it WILL harm the taste of the beer. For re-pitching, adding O2 is no problem.

This is fairly well known in pro brewing circles. There are quite a few pubs and small micros that use 500 gm bricks of US-05 for their beers. Many have won awards at GABF. The one thing in common is none will use O2 upon initial pitch.

Obviously, you can treat your beer any way you want. I do suggest that if you use dry yeast, DO NOT use pure O2 with it. If you are building a starter from liquid yeast, it will need all the help it can get. Blast it with lots of O2.
 

lagavulin

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You are welcome Nilo ;)



Those quotes refer to liquid yeast, NOT dry yeast. There IS a difference.

Dry yeast right out of the packet has NO need for extra O2 and it WILL harm the taste of the beer. For re-pitching, adding O2 is no problem.

This is fairly well known in pro brewing circles. There are quite a few pubs and small micros that use 500 gm bricks of US-05 for their beers. Many have won awards at GABF. The one thing in common is none will use O2 upon initial pitch.

Obviously, you can treat your beer any way you want. I do suggest that if you use dry yeast, DO NOT use pure O2 with it. If you are building a starter from liquid yeast, it will need all the help it can get. Blast it with lots of O2.

From Danstar FAQ:

I always aerate my wort when using liquid yeast. Do I need to aerate the wort before pitching dry yeast?

No, there is no need to aerate the wort but it does not harm the yeast either.

http://www.danstaryeast.com/frequently-asked-questions
 

lagavulin

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Ahh... well upon further reading on this and other forums it appears that this is one of those age-old brewing issues without conclusive evidence either way.

Well, I suppose I can not aerate the next batch I pitch with dry yeast.


Cheers!
 

lagavulin

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Robin0782

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I love US-05. I've used it in all my IPAs, an amber ale, even a stout. That stout was terrific. Never had any off flavors like clove. Very clean yeast, great attenuation, I plan to keep using it for most of my beers. Despite all wisdom to the contrary, I've even made starters with it and had great results.
 

rockfish42

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"The uptake of oxygen happens rapidly, with the yeast usually depleting wort oxygen levels within 30 minutes of inoculation." ~ White and Zainasheff
The last paragraph if page 78 of the same book mentions that over oxygenating creates flavor problems.
 

lagavulin

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rockfish42 said:
The last paragraph if page 78 of the same book mentions that over oxygenating creates flavor problems.
Lol -- again what seems to be one of many contradictions on the topic.

Guess we just have to see for ourselves.

Wayne has experienced off flavors when oxygenated wort is pitched with dry yeast - I actually lend more weight to his opinion as at least his are practical experiences versus theoretical.

Like I said my next brew with 05 yeast - no oxygen stone - fermentation quality and taste will decide this one for me.
 
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